Below the belt

[Buffalogurl]

Careful with that broad brush of “the left”, because the right considers someone like me AND you “the left”.

The portion of “the left” on campuses, etc, that is truly “anti-Zionist (as opposed to anti: war; death; suffering, and destruction) is relatively minute, and it is NOT representative of what many consider “the left” (Democrats).

I have argued repeatedly that the TRUE anti-Zionists on “the left” are ACTUALLY far more aligned with the Chrsto-fascist right wing "republicans".

I would also argue that many on “the left” just want the suffering, death, and destruction to stop - from all parties - and they see appealing to the United States government / people and the Israeli government / people as the logical targets of their efforts. (It is rather pointless to appeal to terrorists to be reasonable.)

Unfortunately, there is a confluence of factors - 10/7, Russia, Iran, Hezbollah, the Houthis, Netanyahu’s legal issues, the right wing in Israel, etc - that make the anti-war(etc) left’s appeals to restraint and conciliation seem almost quaint.

The post you responded to is fairly spot on, imho. It may not be perfectly spot on, (like SevMax2 demands) but it’s close enough, imho.

Real Christians are not anti Semitic.....

 

[ll74]

Real Christians are not anti Semitic.....

Unless their congregation and sect hates jews.

Religion is subjective.

 

[Yarglenurp]

Where on earth do you come with... "neo-feudal Evangelical taliban" that will destroy America? My people just want to be left alone (don't fuck with us) all of the Christians I know believe that the Jews are the apple of God's eye. Not to be fucked with..... I gotta ask what type of hallucinating dope are you consuming.... the "right" wants no part of war....it has always been the left/democrats that have lead us to war, just at present the Biden crime family is poking the bear, fighting the Russians to the last Ukrainian. President Putin will bring war to your front porch.....
We as Americans need/must mind our own affairs here at home.....

Your last line is most revealing. Putin will do nothing because he’s already doing all he can, and it can’t even defeat Ukraine, a nation with one-third the population.

But most of all, fuck you, Putin-lover. You are worse than a trump-worshipper, you worship trump’s master. I don’t waste time debating with you. Your people are literal genocidal madmen and enslavers.

Ukraine will be free, on the corpses of every last Russian if necessary. America will find you and destroy you, filth.

 

[Lazaran]

Real Christians are not anti Semitic.....

Then no “Real Christians” should be members of DonOld’s Christo-fascist MAGAt "republican" party.

 

[ll74]

.... the "right" wants no part of war....it has always been the left/democrats that have lead us to war,

Hawks exist in both parties.

GW comes to mind as a simple, more recent example.

 

[RandyRebecca]

The biggest problem that US politics has, in terms of foreign policy, is Zionist lobbies having corrupted US politicians. That means that Netanyahu feels that he can do whatever he wants, like widening the war in the Middle East, and that America will side with Israel no matter what. It's obviously not in America's interests to have a regionwide war in the Middle East, unless you're an arms dealer.

 

[deckardB26354]

The antisemitic people on the right aren’t vandalizing college campuses and synagogues and harassing Jews trying to get to class or attend services. They’re not smashing the windows of Jewish businesses.

No, but they’re beating the protesters that (correctly) feel that Israel is murdering women and children in Gaza. Fortunately they’re also beating the assholes that scream death to Israel and praise Hamas within their ranks.

It’s not just that they want to see Armageddon happening in the Middle East so they can be raptured (or whatever the fuck) and get to meet their white buddy Jesus—they want division and violence so their other buddy Trump can point a finger and snag another brain-damaged voter on his side.

 

[BrightShinyGirl]

The biggest problem that US politics has, in terms of foreign policy, is Zionist lobbies having corrupted US politicians. That means that Netanyahu feels that he can do whatever he wants, like widening the war in the Middle East, and that America will side with Israel no matter what. It's obviously not in America's interests to have a regionwide war in the Middle East, unless you're an arms dealer.

Hezbollah has been escalating its attacks on Israel since October 7th.

 

[BrightShinyGirl]

No, but they’re beating the protesters that (correctly) feel that Israel is murdering women and children in Gaza. Fortunately they’re also beating the assholes that scream death to Israel and praise Hamas within their ranks.

It’s not just that they want to see Armageddon happening in the Middle East so they can be raptured (or whatever the fuck) and get to meet their white buddy Jesus—they want division and violence so their buddy Trump can point a finger and snag another brain-damaged voter on his side.

Israel is not "murdering" women and children in Gaza. There have been civilians killed by the IDF because Hamas makes no effort to separate its fighters from the noncombatant population.

I'll grant you that some of the anti-Zionists are well-meaning dupes, but that still doesn't excuse the vandalism and harassment of Jewish students who were just trying to get to class.

 

[Bray123]

Hezbollah has been escalating its attacks on Israel since October 7th.

Hezbollah has been defending itself ever since their land was invaded in 1948. Apparently they have no right to stand their ground, defend themselves, or bear arms.

 

[deckardB26354]

Israel is not "murdering" women and children in Gaza. There have been civilians killed by the IDF because Hamas makes no effort to separate its fighters from the noncombatant population.

I'll grant you that some of the anti-Zionists are well-meaning dupes, but that still doesn't excuse the vandalism and harassment of Jewish students who were just trying to get to class.

Then I don’t know what you’d call it then if not murdering…they’re de-life-ing them? The IDF is delivering airborne ordinance to take out Hamas after “people are saying” that they’re hiding over here or over there. Too bad if it’s a school, or a hospital.

Everyone keeps saying Hamas is using Palestinians as human shields. Yeah I get it, but just because someone is robbing a bank and grabs a teller as a human shield—it doesn’t mean that it’s okay for the cops to just open fire to kill them both. Yay! We got the bank robber! Ooops—sorry about killing you there, Ms. Bank Teller.

Collateral damage isn’t acceptable—especially when it can be avoided. It’s just that Israel doesn’t seem to give a fuck about even trying to avoid it.

 

[butters]

Then I don’t know what you’d call it then if not murdering…they’re de-life-ing them? The IDF is delivering airborne ordinance to take out Hamas after “people are saying” that they’re hiding over here or over there. Too bad if it’s a school, or a hospital.

Everyone keeps saying Hamas is using Palestinians as human shields. Yeah I get it, but just because someone is robbing a bank and grabs a teller as a human shield—it doesn’t mean that it’s okay for the cops to just open fire to kill them both. Yay! We got the bank robber! Ooops—sorry about killing you there, Ms. Bank Teller.

Collateral damage isn’t acceptable—especially when it can be avoided. It’s just that Israel doesn’t seem to give a fuck about even trying to avoid it.

and not just the immediate results of the bombings... the destruction of infrastructure, the blockage of aid, the attacks on aid workers? starvation, sickness, injuries and other medical conditions unable to be treated, a lack of clean water, a destruction of sanitation and it goes on and on and on

 

[BrightShinyGirl]

Hezbollah has been defending itself ever since their land was invaded in 1948. Apparently they have no right to stand their ground, defend themselves, or bear arms.

Hezbollah is attacking Israel from Lebanon which has been an independent country since 1941. In 1948, Lebanon attacked Israel, attempting to snuff out the life of the modern Jewish state at the moment of it's birth but that attack obviously failed. Things were quiet In the 1970s, when PLO activity in Lebanon triggered a civil war.

In response to PLO attacks across its northern border, Israel briefly occupied a small bit of southern Lebanon, but withdrew in 1978. Israel did take part in the multinational effort to rid Lebanon of the PLO in the 80's, but since then there have been no Israeli troops in Lebanon.

Israel has recently launched air strikes to retaliate against the rocket barrage across the border, but Hezbollah is not defending themselves from invasion. Hezbollah's aggression in the past year has been entirely one-sided.

 

[Lazaran]

and not just the immediate results of the bombings... the destruction of infrastructure, the blockage of aid, the attacks on aid workers? starvation, sickness, injuries and other medical conditions unable to be treated, a lack of clean water, a destruction of sanitation and it goes on and on and on

And Hamas wanted all of that ^.



This is how Hamas (Russia and Iran, actually) wins:

1) Hamas (with help from Russia and Iran, etc) stages the horrific 10/7 rape, torture, murder, and kidnapping operation, knowing that Israel will retaliate in full force.

2) Hamas hides among civilians and civilian infrastructure and launches attacks from heavily populated civilian areas and from near civilian infrastructure.

3) Innocent Palestinian civilians inevitably get killed when Israel goes after Hamas terrorists and Hamas terror weapons from land, air, and sea.

4) The international community (some of whom are fully on board with Hamas) howl and wail about Israel’s responsibility for the death, suffering, and destruction in Gaza, and absolve Hamas of responsibility.

5) Russia, Iran and their proxies further escalate matters by attacking international shipping, etc,

6) The international community (some of whom are fully onboard with Russia, Iran, and their proxies press Israel to capitulate to unreasonable demands (ceding control of the Philadelphi corridor, etc) to gain an economically and politically beneficial ceasefire. (A ceasefire that Hamas - aided by Russia and Iran, etc - will inevitably violate again)

7) Once a ceasefire on the terms Russia, Iran, and Hamas, etc find acceptable (Hamas control of the Philadelphi corridor, etc) is agreed upon, billions upon billion of international funds flood into the region, and the remaining Hamas leaders, along with many others in the region and beyond, skim their cut off the international largess.



Fuck that ^!!!



This cycle of graft in the region via international terrorism needs to end. A ceasefire could have been achieved long ago if Hamas had ceded control of the Philadelphi corridor to Israel, but Hamas (and Russia, Iran, and Egypt, etc) won’t agree to that, because then they wouldn’t be able to conduct another 10/7 a decade or so from now.



Side note:

Russia, Iran, and Hamas, etc, are counting on good hearted people in America, etc, to assist them in their propaganda campaign through those good hearted people’s sympathy for the innocent Palestinian civilians.



Those good hearted people are being played.

 

[butters]

just because hamas wanted that doesn't make it acceptable

 

[Rightguide]

I know what's happening objectively. You know what you want to know.

I know what there is to know. You know what you want to know.

 

[Bray123]

Hezbollah is attacking Israel from Lebanon which has been an independent country since 1941. In 1948, Lebanon attacked Israel, attempting to snuff out the life of the modern Jewish state at the moment of it's birth but that attack obviously failed. Things were quiet In the 1970s, when PLO activity in Lebanon triggered a civil war.

In response to PLO attacks across its northern border, Israel briefly occupied a small bit of southern Lebanon, but withdrew in 1978. Israel did take part in the multinational effort to rid Lebanon of the PLO in the 80's, but since then there have been no Israeli troops in Lebanon.

Israel has recently launched air strikes to retaliate against the rocket barrage across the border, but Hezbollah is not defending themselves from invasion. Hezbollah's aggression in the past year has been entirely one-sided.

Palestine was doing quite well until the US cleared out all the people in certain areas in order to create a state for Jews to live. As the Palestinians said at the time, 'What did we do? Why don't you create a Jewish State within the territory of Germany?'

America replied, 'The Jews have the right to live on your land and have the right to defend themselves with our help and that makes you terrorists'.

 

[butters]

just because hamas wanted that doesn't make it acceptable

GENEVA (Reuters) -A U.N. committee on Thursday accused Israel of severe breaches of a global treaty protecting children's rights, saying its military actions in Gaza had a catastrophic impact on them and are among the worst violations in recent history.

I know there are people who mistrust the Palestinian data, perhaps with cause, but the numbers are too great, deaths verified enough to satisfy the Un of the scale that flies directly in the face of established protections:

Of those killed in Gaza, at least 11,355 are children, Palestinian data shows, and thousands more are injured.

"The outrageous death of children is almost historically unique. This is an extremely dark place in history," Bragi Gudbrandsson, vice chair of the committee, told reporters.

"I don't think we have seen before, a violation that is so massive, as we are seeing in Gaza now...These are extremely grave violations that we do not often see," he said.

It (Israel) sent a large delegation to a series of U.N. hearings in Geneva in early September where they argued that the treaty did not apply in Gaza or the West Bank and said that it was committed to respecting international humanitarian law

The Committee praised Israel for attending but said it "deeply regrets the State party's repeated denial of its legal obligations".

The 18-member U.N. Committee monitors countries' compliance with the 1989 Convention on the Rights of the Child -- a widely-adopted treaty that protects them from violence and other abuses.

In its conclusions, it called on Israel to provide urgent assistance to thousands of children maimed or injured by the war, provide support for orphans and allow more medical evacuations from Gaza.

 

[Lazaran]

just because hamas wanted that doesn't make it acceptable

My post was meant to illuminate, and to help people understand what is actually going on and where to properly assign blame.

Good hearted people are grieving, and understanding helps get to acceptance. At some point, the denial, anger, bargaining and depression related to this crisis has to give way to acceptance through understanding.

I have grieved / am grieving for all the innocents in this horrific situation, but understanding allows me to achieve some measure of acceptance, which allows me to remain objective in the face of all the horror(s).

I know for a fact that Russia, Iran, Hamas, etc WANT good hearted people to jettison their objectivity in favor of emotionality so they will improperly assign blame to Israel and the United States, etc.

I refuse to let Russia, Iran, Hamas, etc "win" by jettisoning my objectivity and my capacity to properly assign blame.

This situation IS unacceptable; and I blame Russia, Iran, and Hamas, etc.

 

[butters]

This situation IS unacceptable; and I blame Russia, Iran, and Hamas, etc.

as do I, but I don't exclude Israel from that list.

 

[ll74]

I know what there is to know. You know what you want to know.

Did you verify with RT.com yet?

 

[BrightShinyGirl]

Palestine was doing quite well until the US cleared out all the people in certain areas in order to create a state for Jews to live. As the Palestinians said at the time, 'What did we do? Why don't you create a Jewish State within the territory of Germany?'

America replied, 'The Jews have the right to live on your land and have the right to defend themselves with our help and that makes you terrorists'.

Jews have been living continuously in the region since biblical times. They survived as an independent community through wave after wave of invaders: the Romans, the Arabs, the Turks, and finally the British. The city of Tel Aviv was founded as a Jewish enclave in the British territory of Mandatory Palestine in 1909.

In 1948 the Jews of Mandatory Palestine took advantage of the post-war push to end the British colonial empire. They lobbied for the territory to be partitioned into Jewish and Arab spheres, like was done with India and Pakistan the year before.

The Jewish part of Mandatory Palestine became Israel. The Arab part was given to Egypt and Jordan. Unfortunately the Arabs wanted all the land. They immediately launched a war to eradicate the new Jewish state. They failed in 1948, but the recent attacks against Israel by Hamas and Hezbollah are a continuation of this pan-Arab dream.

 

[Lazaran]

as do I, but I don't exclude Israel from that list.

I won’t judge Israel’s action in response to 10/7 from the safety and comfort of my home in America, or blame them for Hamas using civilians and civilian infrastructure for their own sinister purposes.

I could second guess Israel’s prosecution of the war on Hamas, but they have been pretty successful in degrading Hamas (and now Hezbollah), while simultaneously keeping the civilian casualty count relatively low through unprecedented announcements of pending military operations and the facilitation of humanitarian aid deliveries to their enemies.

Also: If Hamas agrees to a ceasefire right now, then the worst of the harms to the vast majority of the civilian population of Gaza could be avoided. So much death, destruction, and suffering could have been avoided if Hamas hadn’t conducted their 10/7 race, torture, murder, and kidnapping operation AND if they hadn’t played games over a ceasefire long ago. Is not ceding control of the Philadelphi corridor, etc, more important than Palestinian civilians’ lives???

 

[Yarglenurp]

Jews have been living continuously in the region since biblical times. They survived as an independent community through wave after wave of invaders: the Romans, the Arabs, the Turks, and finally the British. The city of Tel Aviv was founded as a Jewish enclave in the British territory of Mandatory Palestine in 1909.

In 1948 the Jews of Mandatory Palestine took advantage of the post-war push to end the British colonial empire. They lobbied for the territory to be partitioned into Jewish and Arab spheres, like was done with India and Pakistan the year before.

The Jewish part of Mandatory Palestine became Israel. The Arab part was given to Egypt and Jordan. Unfortunately the Arabs wanted all the land. They immediately launched a war to eradicate the new Jewish state. They failed in 1948, but the recent attacks against Israel by Hamas and Hezbollah are a continuation of this pan-Arab dream.

I think any objective view of the situation is that it is a land/resource conflict. Claims of ancestral what-have-yous is pointless, since people have been living there since whenever and any major demographic changes probably had more than a few wars and genocides in the mix. It’s not like the land magically became Muslim suddenly, nor is it like the land mass-converted to Judaism in 1948. The Israelis want to live there, and they obtained it by right of conquest. By the same mechanism, the neighboring Muslims nations sought and failed to make their own claim.

It is true that the US has interests there, and it doesn’t benefit us to support non-allied interests. That doesn’t mean anything about agreeing to the morality of war, any more than it means we must agree with the house of Saud on the morality of their kingdom in suppressing native women’s rights or the Indian BJP in their treatment of religious minorities. Not our land, not our people, not our fight.

Ultimately, I live here, not there. Trump-worshippers are a threat to the American ideals of freedom, prosperity, and the continued growth of society. They must be destroyed entirely and so shattered that our collective memory will recoil at the thought of ever letting a trump-worshipper exist. Unless the Israelis as a government declare their opposition to Trump-worshippers and help destroy them, I see no reason to be pro or against them in their local conflicts.

 

[Rightguide]

"The greatest covert operation since the Trojan Horse."

The takeaway from this covert attack is that Hezbollah is now terrified to communicate with each other. Israelis knew the phone numbers of every member who had a pager, including their commanders. The result is the entire communication system used by Hezbollah is compromised which has to demoralize, and create uncertainty and disorganization, in their ranks. Now it seems paramount that Israel has to go after the 100,000 missiles that Hezbollah is alleged to have ready to launch.