closed Thread

[butters]

Hamas is demanding a ceasefire before they will negotiate a ceasefire and the release of the hostages.

i just typed all this reply before i fully understood your point, apologies. having said that, in the interests of peace, surely an immediate ceasefire would be a good thing?


this is the first stage of the plan as proposed by Israel and offered to hamas via Qatar

The first phase would last six weeks, and includes "a full and complete cease-fire and withdrawal" of Israeli forces from all populated areas of Gaza, the release of a number of hostages, including women, the elderly, and the wounded in exchange for hundreds of Palestinian prisoners.

this is Israel's plan.
of course hamas wants a complete ceasefire... but in this first phase it is a complete but temporary cessation or ceasefire, enduring so long as hamas keeps to its end of the deal and even past the 6 weeks as things are being thrashed out... so long as hamas abides by the ceasefire. That initial ceasefire is crucial for the aid to reach Gaza and lead to stage two, where there'd be a full withdrawal of Israeli troops from Gaza and the release of all further hostages/prisoners.

In the first phase, humanitarian assistance would surge, with 600 trucks carrying aid into Gaza every day.

"With the cease-fire, that aid could be safely and effectively distributed to all who needed," the president said. "Hundreds of thousands of temporary shelters, including housing units, would be delivered by the international community. All that and more would begin immediately."

In Phase 2, would include the release of all remaining living hostages, including male soldiers in exchange for a full Israeli withdrawal from Gaza. As long as Hamas lives up to its commitments, the temporary cease-fire would become “the cessation of hostilities permanently,” Biden said.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...easefire-proposal-biden-approval/73921351007/

it is netanyahu, even once this has been proposed and delivered to hamas via qatari diplomacy, who is saying he's not stopping the war. I believe President Biden said he backs Israel's pursuit of hamas, and so—as long as netanyahu isn't still bombing the shit out of populated areas and withdraws the IDF from them as per the first part of the plan—the two are not necessarily contradictory in terms. Of course, hamas being hamas and intent on using civilians as shields, there's so much can go wrong already.

 

[Lazaran]

hey, Lazaran, i haven't checked the footage but the quotation from USA Today reads:


https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...easefire-proposal-biden-approval/73921351007/

OK, I see the issue.

The reason I missed that, is because I was focused on the details / conditions of the three stage proposal.

I don’t think that the part about “a better day in Gaza without Hamas in power” was included in the text of the proposal - I believe that was just President Biden being optimistic about the future.

Netanyahu was pretty clear about ending Hamas, but even he didn’t say Hamas would have to cede power for the proposal to go through.

We shall see.

 

[butters]

OK, I see the issue.

The reason I missed that, is because I was focused on the details / conditions of the three stage proposal.

I don’t think that the part about “a better day in Gaza without Hamas in power” was included in the text of the proposal - I believe that was just President Biden being optimistic about the future.

Netanyahu was pretty clear about ending Hamas, but even he didn’t say Hamas would have to cede power for the proposal to go through.

We shall see.

from Reuters:

JERUSALEM (Reuters) - Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said on Saturday there could be no permanent ceasefire in Gaza until Hamas was destroyed, casting doubt on a key part of a truce proposal that U.S. President Joe Biden said Israel itself had made.

Biden said on Friday that Israel had proposed a deal involving an initial six-week truce with a partial Israeli military withdrawal and the release of some hostages while the two sides negotiated "a permanent end to hostilities".

However, Netanyahu's statement on Saturday said any notion that Israel would agree a permanent ceasefire before "the destruction of Hamas' military and governing capabilities" was "a non-starter".

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/worl...hamas-destroyed/ar-BB1nrEOa?ocid=BingNewsSerp

i'm so glad i'm not one of those responsible for sorting out this terrible situation

 

[ll74]

from Reuters:




https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/worl...hamas-destroyed/ar-BB1nrEOa?ocid=BingNewsSerp

i'm so glad i'm not one of those responsible for sorting out this terrible situation

It's good that Biden publicly released the proposal. It will end up getting people talking about it and build political capital

 

[silky52]

@silky52

or both ...

He is a classic leftie living in his fantasy world where the Arabs are valiant revolutionaries fighing for liberation of the working class and against evil imperialism.

In reality no one in the Near East even know how marxism is to spell and all are shouting always "Allah akba" instead of singing the Internationale. It is real satire.

Here in Germany I read an artilcle in the TAZ, a very leftish newspaper, that wearing a scarf is a sign of the liberation and freedom of women. This is no joke. A "leading feminist"- Alice Schwarzer - is called now a rassist as she mentioned that the islam is hardly a source of female equal rights.

The so called intellectuals are a club of self-referring biased idiots not able and especially not willing to see reality.

Totally agree with you.

 

[Rightguide]

so start a thread about it and discuss it with those who choose to read and interact with it

i know this wasn't addressed to me, but this is an open forum for opinions.
the massacre of Oct.7th bothers EVERYONE with a shred of humanity... innocents tortured, killed, maimed, kidnapped, traumatized. No-one can say Israel ought not to have some response to that

but when the numbers of Palestinian civilians reaches beyond the numbers of Oct.7th, especially when it is now in the 30+thousand mark, how can Israelis not be bothered by those figures? in the eyes of at least half of the world, it's literally 'overkill' and unsanctionable

It's unfortunate for many, especially the innocent, but overkill is deterrence and a fact of life. It's what every military in history has tried to achieve. The word decimate is derived from the practice of exacting a high body count compared to one's own to deter an enemy's will to fight. The estimates for those killed in WWI are about 16 million. The US alone in that war lost 110,000 dead in 110 days of fighting. We killed millions upon millions in WWII. In the Vietnam War 2 million civilians on both sides and some 1.1 million North Vietnamese and Viet Cong fighters were killed and some 200,000 to 250,000 South Vietnamese soldiers were killed. So, what exactly is an unsanctionable overkill?

 

[ll74]

It's unfortunate for many, especially the innocent, but overkill is deterrence and a fact of life. It's what every military in history has tried to achieve. The word decimate is derived from the practice of exacting a high body count compared to one's own to deter an enemy's will to fight. The estimates for those killed in WWI are about 16 million. The US alone in that war lost 110,000 dead in 110 days of fighting. We killed millions upon millions in WWII. In the Vietnam War 2 million civilians on both sides and some 1.1 million North Vietnamese and Viet Cong fighters were killed and some 200,000 to 250,000 South Vietnamese soldiers were killed. So, what exactly is an unsanctionable overkill?

So is Israel's objective to overkill for deterence? I must've missed that statement

 

[butters]

TEL AVIV, Israel — Israel’s prime minister faced growing pressure Saturday after U.S. President Joe Biden announced a proposed agreement to end the fighting in Gaza, with many Israelis urging Benjamin Netanyahu to embrace the deal but far-right allies threatening to collapse his government if he does.

A huge demonstration in Israel on Saturday night, led by families of hostages held by Hamas, urged the government to act now. Mediators the U.S., Egypt and Qatar pressed Israel and Hamas, saying the proposed deal “offers a road map for a permanent cease-fire and ending the crisis” and gives immediate relief to both hostages and Gaza residents.

But far-right Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich and Minister of National Security Itamar Ben Gvir said they would break up the government if it takes the deal. That could expose Netanyahu to new elections, scrutiny over security failures that led to the war and — if he loses the prime minister post — prosecution on longstanding corruption charges.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/worl...p&cvid=d314a34f88cf47fdd196c427a98076e4&ei=19

hmmn

 

[Lazaran]

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/worl...p&cvid=d314a34f88cf47fdd196c427a98076e4&ei=19

hmmn

Definitely a lot of "moving parts" that are hindering / interfering with the adoption of a practicable deal.

 

[RobDownSouth]

As the Israeli genocide campaign enters it's seventh month, it's becoming clear that Netanyahu has lost his grip on the government. The only reason he remains in power is because of two ultra-right factions led by Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich and National Security Minister Itamar Ben-Gvir.

Ben-Gvir was formerly designated as a "terrorist party leader" as a Kahanite party member ("Arabs have no rights. period") and Smotrich is an illegal squatter who has commandeered a large palatial Palestinian estate outside of Israeli settlements in the West Bank.

Israel has no honor.

I called it almost one month ago.

The two fringe-right ministers, Smotrich and Gvir, announced they will give Netanyahu a vote of no confidence if Netanyahu accepts ANY permanent ceasefire in Gaza.

This would result in a new election for Prime Minister and likely end Netanyahu's political career.

 

[BrightShinyGirl]

The IDF rescued four hostages!

They’re in the hospital now.

After so many months of captivity I’d given them all up for dead!

 

[RobDownSouth]

NY Times: Israel’s propaganda operation treats the U.S. like a foe, not a friend.
Israel has spent two million US dollars attempting to influence the 2024 Presidential election by unleashing a ChatGPT botnet swarm targeting Democrats, particularly black Democrats such as House Minority Leader Hakeem Jeffries, Rep. Ritchie Torres, D-N.Y., and Sen. Raphael Warnock, D-Ga.

it turns out that Israel is not just acting like a prickly and belligerent friend, but like an outright foe, surreptitiously undermining American democracy to advance its own interests. Generating a bot army to support Israel and criticize its opponents suggests a lack of faith that most Americans’ long-standing sympathy for Israel will endure throughout a military operation that has indiscriminately killed civilians en masse. Instead of changing in response to increasing horror in American public opinion, Israel has deployed a dishonorable strategy for altering our ability to understand what the American public’s opinion is.

The severity of Israel’s actions are compounded by the reality of the upcoming election. Because support for Israel has become a wedge issue in the Democratic Party, Israel is interfering in the 2024 elections by attempting to stoke polarization around the issue. This is precisely the kind of thing that the U.S. sanctions Moscow over.

Meta Facebook began removing thousands of Israeli bot accounts after the Times report was published. Obviously, both the NY Times and Facebook are "antisemitic", nu?

Israel has belligerently said they are above international law and treaties, and they will "go it alone" if needed.
It is time to call their bluff.

It is time to cut off all military and civilian aid to Israel. Let them see firsthand the consequences of "going it alone".

 

[BrightShinyGirl]

The IDF rescued four hostages!

They’re in the hospital now.

After so many months of captivity I’d given them all up for dead!

Sadly, Arnon Zamora who was part of the rescue team has died from his wounds. He was 36 years old and leaves behind a wife and two children.

A true hero. May his memory be a blessing.

 

[BabyBoomer50s]

Well done!

Israel Rescues Four Hostages Held in Gaza

TEL AVIV—Israel’s military said it rescued four hostages held in the central Gaza Strip on Saturday morning, in a complex daytime operation that jolted cease-fire talks, reshaped Israeli politics and resulted in scores of Palestinian casualties.

“We have the diamonds in our hands,” the Israeli teams reported as they secured the four, using Israel’s code word for hostages.

https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-ea...pajs6xp38b08idh&reflink=article_copyURL_share

 

[RobDownSouth]

Why are Israeli POLICE conducting hostage retrieval raids in hostile territory?
Shouldn't that be the IDF's job, or are they tasked solely with genocide at this point?
What a fucked up country.

 

[Lazaran]

Why are Israeli POLICE conducting hostage retrieval raids in hostile territory?
Shouldn't that be the IDF's job, or are they tasked solely with genocide at this point?
What a fucked up country.

It was a substantial win for the Israelis.



The Hamas animals could have CHOSEN to accept earlier ceasefire offers and achieved the FORCIBLE release of Palestinian prisoners in exchange for those hostages, while also achieving a FORCED pause in the injuries and insults they brought on their people with their October 7th rape, torture, murder, and kidnapping operation.

The Hamas animals CHOSE poorly.

 

[ll74]

Hamas should surrender and hand over all hostages. They won't, but they should put Palestinians ahead of their interests.

 

[censurat]

Why are Israeli POLICE conducting hostage retrieval raids in hostile territory?
Shouldn't that be the IDF's job, or are they tasked solely with genocide at this point?
What a fucked up country.

sad day for Rot Down South

 

[censurat]

Hamas should surrender and hand over all hostages. They won't, but they should put Palestinians ahead of their interests.

they were held in homes of "civilians"

 

[lessOHmo]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1799628340908712419

 

[censurat]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1799692772062142466

 

[censurat]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1799666803771416737

 

[ll74]

they were held in homes of "civilians"

People who participate in terrorism aren't civilians
Adding - Palestinians have been moved around more than cattle by the IDF. I am skeptical that the "civilians" were the owners of the home.
Hope this helps

 

[ExxWhyZee]

People who participate in terrorism aren't civilians
Adding - Palestinians have been moved around more than cattle by the IDF. I am skeptical that the "civilians" were the owners of the home.
Hope this helps

https://twitter.com/x/status/1799713853544288308

 

[ExxWhyZee]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1799757331460129248