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Sex & Shenanigans

UnquietDreams said:
So what would you consider "deep" within speculative fiction?
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I think Ursala K Le Guin’s explorations of gender and social dynamics are deep. See also Ann Leckie. I think Octavia Butler and N.K. Jemisen’s thoughts on race and culture are deep. I think Phillip K. dick’s thoughts on what it means to be human are interesting, maybe deep. I don’t think Herbert’s reskins of actual history are.
 
Tigobitties98 said:
This must be what it's like when Harry Potter fans talk to me, and they always say "I guess you never got your letter to hogwarts" like it's a bad thing, or like I should care that I didn't 🤷‍♀️

You never got your spaceship to Arrakis 😥
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I think you mistake my position, I like Dune, read it a lot. It’s a great story and a well written ones. But it’s just an adventure story. It’s not really saying anything that interesting or novel.
 
SalaciousMonkey22 said:
Space Europe invading space Middle East with the church and eugenics still isn’t deep my man. Still just a superficial rewriting of actual history and slight reskinning.
Great book. Super fun story. Not deep.
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Okay, I am going back to this. What gives Dune depth isn't the world building. In fact, one of its strengths, which goes away as they dig deeper into it, is keeping the world building relatively light, re: the Butlerian Jihad being more named dropped for depth than explained, as opposed to later stories.

What makes it deep, especially for the time, is the subversion of the Hero's Journey. Paul and Jessica ruthlessly taking advantage of the way the Bene Gesserite manipulated humanity in general, and the Fremen specifically to find first a hiding place, then an army. Paul isn't a hero. And that was a massive subversion, especially in 1965 when the New Wave hadn't started playing yet.
 
UnquietDreams said:
Okay, I am going back to this. What gives Dune depth isn't the world building. In fact, one of its strengths, which goes away as they dig deeper into it, is keeping the world building relatively light, re: the Butlerian Jihad being more named dropped for depth than explained, as opposed to later stories.

What makes it deep, especially for the time, is the subversion of the Hero's Journey. Paul and Jessica ruthlessly taking advantage of the way the Bene Gesserite manipulated humanity in general, and the Fremen specifically to find first a hiding place, then an army. Paul isn't a hero. And that was a massive subversion, especially in 1965 when the New Wave hadn't started playing yet.
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As well as women having a powerful, if secretive, organization with influence to change culture, beliefs, etc. Yes, Jessica fulfills a lot of the "mother to the messianic figure" tropes, but the bene gesserite were radical for when it was written
 
UnquietDreams said:
Okay, I am going back to this. What gives Dune depth isn't the world building. In fact, one of its strengths, which goes away as they dig deeper into it, is keeping the world building relatively light, re: the Butlerian Jihad being more named dropped for depth than explained, as opposed to later stories.

What makes it deep, especially for the time, is the subversion of the Hero's Journey. Paul and Jessica ruthlessly taking advantage of the way the Bene Gesserite manipulated humanity in general, and the Fremen specifically to find first a hiding place, then an army. Paul isn't a hero. And that was a massive subversion, especially in 1965 when the New Wave hadn't started playing yet.
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Dude, did you just Google this? It’s a common discussion point.
 
Tigobitties98 said:
Indeed, but unfortunately the show is for Book Club members only. Maybe, if you're really nice, and your value on the exchange goes up, one of them will give you the Cliffs Notes 🤔
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How well does the app work? I've been thinking about getting one of their toys for a long time but don't know anyone who has one.
 
SalaciousMonkey22 said:
Dude, did you just Google this? It’s a common discussion point.
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I am not plowing new ground, I am explaining why that is what makes the story interesting to me. Honestly, I think Zelazny took it further in the first Amber cycle --subverting the hero-- but I was always more a New Wave fan.
 
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