Alabama Supreme court rules embryos are children

[HisArpy]

Do you believe the current United States legal code is perfect in all respects, or are there some laws that should be changed?

Perfection is impossible, not even Mary Poppins is perfect.

The rest I have already stated.

 

[BrightShinyGirl]

Perfection is impossible, not even Mary Poppins is perfect.

The rest I have already stated.

You’ve made your position very clear. You oppose any effort to change existing laws to give women the ability to choose whether or not they have an abortion. That’s called being anti-abortion.

 

[HisArpy]

You’ve made your position very clear. You oppose any effort to change existing laws to give women the ability to choose whether or not they have an abortion. That’s called being anti-abortion.

1. Define woman.

2. Females already have the ability to choose. That it's not "convenient" is irrelevant.

3. My position is clear - if you want to, and it's legal, then have at it. That's NOT "anti" anything. You saying it's anti-abortion is based on personal animas and not reason.

4. I am under no obligation to assist you in anything other than legal matters for which I am hired. I reject you as a client and decline to represent you in all things great and small. Thus, I don't have to do shit to change the law regarding abortion rights. You thinking I have to is where you once again drive off the cliff... excuse me, I meant ride the mass transit bus off the cliff.

 

[BrightShinyGirl]

1. Define woman.

2. Females already have the ability to choose. That it's not "convenient" is irrelevant.

3. My position is clear - if you want to, and it's legal, then have at it. That's NOT "anti" anything. You saying it's anti-abortion is based on personal animas and not reason.

4. I am under no obligation to assist you in anything other than legal matters for which I am hired. I reject you as a client and decline to represent you in all things great and small. Thus, I don't have to do shit to change the law regarding abortion rights. You thinking I have to is where you once again drive off the cliff... excuse me, I meant ride the mass transit bus off the cliff.

For the purposes of this discussion a woman is any adult capable of bearing children.

It seems like you don’t care about any law that doesn’t affect you personally. Since you can’t get pregnant yourself, you don’t care whether it’s legal for a woman to have an abortion or not.

 

[TastySuckToy]

Since you can’t get pregnant yourself, you don’t care whether it’s legal for a woman to have an abortion or not.

Women on one side scream at men to shut up, they shouldn't have an opinion or say in the matter. And then women on the other side saying they don't care if they elect to sit the issue out.

Which side of women are men supposed to listen to?

 

[adrina]

I think it's convenient for men for them to be against something they will never experience and never need.

 

[BrightShinyGirl]

Women on one side scream at men to shut up, they shouldn't have an opinion or say in the matter. And then women on the other side saying they don't care if they elect to sit the issue out.

Which side of women are men supposed to listen to?

Men’s opinions regarding abortion are often ill-informed. If they take time to educate themselves on what pregnancy involves they’re welcome to contribute, but they should defer to people who have first-hand experience.

 

[TastySuckToy]

Men’s opinions regarding abortion are often ill-informed. If they take time to educate themselves on what pregnancy involves they’re welcome to contribute, but they should defer to people who have first-hand experience.

And the not insignificant number of women who are against abortion?

 

[adrina]

And the not insignificant number of women who are against abortion?

You already went own this rabbit hole with me.

If it were up to women and women alone - pro-choice would be the law of the land. It is men who are majority against abortion and against pro-choice.

Then there is the reality that most of the women who are anti-abortion are heavily religious. Which means they've been taught to be anti-abortion. Many of them change their tune when it is themselves needing it, or can rationalize it for someone close to them. Because reasons.

You keep asking this question as if it means something. At least the women have some experience with it. And most of them, even if they don't think they would get an abortion realize it needs to remain legal.

Or are you just trying to make excuses for the willful ignorance of men when it comes to abortion?

 

[butters]

concerns as IVF regulation stalls, with some republicans (including Senator Hyde-Smith, Miss.) believing proposals by democrats go 'too far', making IVF clinics the 'new wild west' where anything goes.

the uncertainty for those using IVF in Alabama won't disappear because of foggy or incomplete wording that creates the potential for down-the-road court cases. to embark on a course of IVF now must be an enormous strain above and beyond the pressures it normally holds.

so i, personally, don't just buy into the bumbling nature of the Alabama S.C that the law got worded this way...and even the court acknowledged it would be tested through court cases. i believe the wording to be deliberate, allowing the 'blind spot' for those who will wish to push for 100% personhood protection for embryonic material from the moment a sperm joins with an egg, which will often coincide with the extreme position that IVF is an intrusion on 'God's Plan', an interference where people shouldn't have access to IVF but should adopt or simply remain thankful to 'god' even in their childlessness.

Suter says while state lawmakers are pushing a bill to shield clinics from lawsuits, it does not clarify Alabama’s Supreme Court ruling, which says that frozen embryos used for in vitro fertilization are children.

“You would have to have a lawsuit. You’d have to have it come up before the Alabama Supreme Court,” Suter explained. “But I could see in the way some of the justices have written this, a court say, no, I’m sorry, the sanctity of unborn life means all unborn life.”

The White House is urging Congress to pass federal guidelines to clarify the law.

First Lady Dr. Jill Biden said, “Yes, that means protecting IVF.”

https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/ot...31&cvid=4187cbd4c23e456aafda4bd4567dcd58&ei=6

 

[HisArpy]

For the purposes of this discussion a woman is any adult capable of bearing children.

It seems like you don’t care about any law that doesn’t affect you personally. Since you can’t get pregnant yourself, you don’t care whether it’s legal for a woman to have an abortion or not.

1. IOW, a woman is someone who was born female regardless of what play acting role she wishes to perform in public.



2. What part of "I have no voice in the issue" didn't you understand the first few times I've said it? I've been REPEATEDLY TOLD (even on this forum) that, as a man, I shouldn't have any say in whether a woman can get an abortion or not. Yet you now complain and cast aspersions at me because of your own censorship of my opinion. You've created a catch 22 situation where I'm the bad guy no matter what I say or do. Congratulations, you may now sit in the corner you've painted yourself into and cry for all I care because you did it to yourself.



3. Under the law I don't have to be consulted, give permission, be informed, or anything else because I'm not the one getting the procedure.

It's simple to understand, I have NO SAY on the subject legally or socially. This doesn't mean I don't care or that I don't have an opinion, it's that I have no voice. Without a voice I have no basis to speak except in my professional capacity.

In that capacity I MUST stand for what the law says and allows unless I have a good faith basis to argue on behalf of a client for changing it. I do not have such a good faith basis because there is no state where I'm licensed to practice which denies women an abortion.

 

[BrightShinyGirl]

1. IOW, a woman is someone who was born female regardless of what play acting role she wishes to perform in public.



2. What part of "I have no voice in the issue" didn't you understand the first few times I've said it? I've been REPEATEDLY TOLD (even on this forum) that, as a man, I shouldn't have any say in whether a woman can get an abortion or not. Yet you now complain and cast aspersions at me because of your own censorship of my opinion. You've created a catch 22 situation where I'm the bad guy no matter what I say or do. Congratulations, you may now sit in the corner you've painted yourself into and cry for all I care because you did it to yourself.



3. Under the law I don't have to be consulted, give permission, be informed, or anything else because I'm not the one getting the procedure.

It's simple to understand, I have NO SAY on the subject legally or socially. This doesn't mean I don't care or that I don't have an opinion, it's that I have no voice. Without a voice I have no basis to speak except in my professional capacity.

In that capacity I MUST stand for what the law says and allows unless I have a good faith basis to argue on behalf of a client for changing it. I do not have such a good faith basis because there is no state where I'm licensed to practice which denies women an abortion.

Most Americans want the law to be changed so abortion is legal.

 

[MajorRewrite]

I believe that children are embryos.

When mine annoy me I put them in the freezer.

 

[RobDownSouth]

I think it's convenient for men for them to be against something they will never experience and never need.

https://i.imgur.com/wEyIhuN.jpeg

 

[HisArpy]

Most Americans want the law to be changed so abortion is legal.

1. Your statement is FALSE.

A) Nearly 3/4ths of Americans believe that abortion should be restricted to the first trimester.

B) Currently no state outlaws abortion 100%.


2. I am not "most Americans" as you put it. My opinion stands; If you wish to kill your progeny, and the law where you are allows you do so, then you can. If the law doesn't allow you to do so, then move to where you can.

 

[BrightShinyGirl]

1. Your statement is FALSE.

A) Nearly 3/4ths of Americans believe that abortion should be restricted to the first trimester.

B) Currently no state outlaws abortion 100%.


2. I am not "most Americans" as you put it. My opinion stands; If you wish to kill your progeny, and the law where you are allows you do so, then you can. If the law doesn't allow you to do so, then move to where you can.

Most Americans believe the Supreme Court should have let Roe v. Wade stand so abortion was legal (with restrictions) in all 50 states.

 

[HisArpy]

Most Americans believe the Supreme Court should have let Roe v. Wade stand so abortion was legal (with restrictions) in all 50 states.

Again false.

Nearly everyone understands that Roe invented a Constitutional Right out of whole cloth. Go read it and you'll see that the reasoning isn't even self supporting and actually contradicts itself in a few spots. Print it out and write notes in the margins about what every paragraph actually says and you'll spot it.

Every decision since Roe has built on the same flawed reasoning instead of correcting it to comport with the actual language in the Constitution.

My personal opinion (because the law says otherwise) is that there is indeed a Constitutional Right to abortion. Read the 4th Amendment and ask yourself if "person, houses, papers, and effects" covers your body and medical records/procedures.

Now ask yourself if that only applies to the medical procedures at the time of ratification.

Now ask yourself if the 2nd Amendment is treated the same way. Or the 1st. Or 5th. Or 8th. Or 10th.

Now you know why there's such a division over abortion as a Constitutional Right.

 

[butters]

https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/ot...31&cvid=5a648889bc574dfaa3dcb1ec3e512e86&ei=4

Louisiana considers an IVF embryo to be a “juridical person,” which prohibits them from being “intentionally destroyed” in the state, Schilling said. It’s narrower than Alabama’s ruling, because while juridical personhood grants an embryo limited legal rights, it still isn’t considered the equivalent of a person. Alabama’s ruling declared frozen embryos to be children, meaning that any intentional or unintentional harm to an embryo is the legal equivalent of harming a child.

Louisiana’s law applies to all “viable embryos.” But what the law dictates as viable is sometimes different from what medical professionals consider viable.

The law states that any IVF embryo that continues developing for 36 hours after fertilization is considered “viable” and becomes a “juridical person” that cannot be destroyed. However, medical providers say that many of those embryos carry genetic abnormalities that will never result in successful pregnancies. Healthy embryos sometimes go unused, too, because it’s common for patients to have leftover embryos from the IVF process.

This leaves Louisiana’s IVF clinics and patients with few realistic options, Schilling said: An embryo has to be transferred into a patient, stored forever at the patient’s expense or donated to a married couple. (Embryos cannot be donated to science or to single people.)

 

[PaxNurgle]

1. Your statement is FALSE.

A) Nearly 3/4ths of Americans believe that abortion should be restricted to the first trimester.

B) Currently no state outlaws abortion 100%.


2. I am not "most Americans" as you put it. My opinion stands; If you wish to kill your progeny, and the law where you are allows you do so, then you can. If the law doesn't allow you to do so, then move to where you can.

a) It's more complicated; I'd say maybe 3/4ths of Americans are okay with SOME abortion restrictions, but mostly in the 3rd Trimester with healthy fetuses.

B) Idaho outlaws abortion 100%. I believe at least two others states- Mississippi and Alabama, do as well.

2. You clearly are not "Most Americans." Thankfully. However, you are confusing the issue of terminating an early-stage pregnancy with "Killing your progeny" and the argument "move to where you can" may soon be imperiled if the extremists have their way and a national ban goes into effect.

 

[adrina]

https://www.pewresearch.org/politic...preme-courts-decision-to-overturn-roe-v-wade/

Majority of Public Disapproves of Supreme Court’s Decision To Overturn Roe v. Wade​

62% of Americans say abortion should be legal in all or most cases, little changed since before the court’s decision​

https://thehill.com/homenews/state-...of-supreme-court-reversal-of-roe-v-wade-poll/

61 percent disapprove of Supreme Court reversal of Roe v. Wade: poll​

https://www.apa.org/monitor/2022/10/americans-oppose-roe-wade

Most Americans oppose decision to overturn Roe v. Wade​

https://www.cnn.com/2022/07/28/politics/cnn-poll-abortion-roe-v-wade/index.html

CNN Poll: About two-thirds of Americans disapprove of overturning Roe v. Wade, see negative effect for the nation ahead​

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/abortion-roe-v-wade-dobbs-anniversary-opinion-poll-2023-06-21/

CBS News poll finds most say Roe's overturn has been bad for country, half say abortion has been more restricted than expected​

https://www.axios.com/2022/06/26/cbs-poll-americans-roe-v-wade-abortion-rights

Poll: Majority of Americans disapprove of overturning Roe v. Wade​

And on and on and on.

 

[HisArpy]

a) It's more complicated; I'd say maybe 3/4ths of Americans are okay with SOME abortion restrictions, but mostly in the 3rd Trimester with healthy fetuses.

B) Idaho outlaws abortion 100%. I believe at least two others states- Mississippi and Alabama, do as well.

2. You clearly are not "Most Americans." Thankfully. However, you are confusing the issue of terminating an early-stage pregnancy with "Killing your progeny" and the argument "move to where you can" may soon be imperiled if the extremists have their way and a national ban goes into effect.

You are an idiot.

a. is a repeat of what I said.
b. is a lie.
2. is why you're an idiot.

 

[RobDownSouth]

2. Females already have the ability to choose. That it's not "convenient" is irrelevant.

How do you rationalize states that have absolute bans on abortion as "having the ability to choose"?

Are you going to insult our intelligence and attempt to pivot to "don't have sex!" or "go to another state!"?

 

[HisArpy]

How do you rationalize states that have absolute bans on abortion as "having the ability to choose"?

Are you going to insult our intelligence and attempt to pivot to "don't have sex!" or "go to another state!"?

^ someone can't fucking read or comprehend what everyone else seems to have already figured out.

NO STATE bans abortion 100%. NONE! Some states severely restrict it, but no state currently bans it completely.

IF you are someone who desires an abortion and your state prohibits you from getting one as an elective procedure, MOVE to where you can do what you wish to do. Trying to say there's another option where you get to somehow ignore the law is FUCKING STUPID.

 

[RobDownSouth]

^ someone can't fucking read or comprehend what everyone else seems to have already figured out.

NO STATE bans abortion 100%. NONE! Some states severely restrict it, but no state currently bans it completely.

IF you are someone who desires an abortion and your state prohibits you from getting one as an elective procedure, MOVE to where you can do what you wish to do. Trying to say there's another option where you get to somehow ignore the law is FUCKING STUPID.

TEXAS BANS ABORTIONS 100%.

and thanks for being true to form and saying "hurr durr MOVE!" as if that's a viable choice for most pregnant women,

 

[rainsol]

You already went own this rabbit hole with me.

If it were up to women and women alone - pro-choice would be the law of the land. It is men who are majority against abortion and against pro-choice.

Then there is the reality that most of the women who are anti-abortion are heavily religious. Which means they've been taught to be anti-abortion. Many of them change their tune when it is themselves needing it, or can rationalize it for someone close to them. Because reasons.

You keep asking this question as if it means something. At least the women have some experience with it. And most of them, even if they don't think they would get an abortion realize it needs to remain legal.

Or are you just trying to make excuses for the willful ignorance of men when it comes to abortion?

Abortion is killing no matter how you phase, it sure as fuck aint health care bitch