How to make FemDoms more relatable without compromising?

[madelinemasoch]

I have my own vision. I want only to express that vision in a way that others shall behold the same exact vision. This is the only way I will survive, I'm not compromising with the existing social sexual system. How do you write a scene in a way in which the audience understands exactly what you pictured, and feels exactly what you felt in response to that picture? This is all I want to achieve. If you're going to say it's a fool's errand, then I do not want to hear your opinion. I only want commentary that will enhance my will and sexual instincts, not stifle or stultify them. This comes from a place of desperation, and not a place of adversarialness.

 

[Rob_Royale]

Two things in my opinion.
First, is significant time spent setting the stage. Explain the world as the characters go about their lives.
Second is well thought out, relatable characters.
When a reader can mentally see the setting and empathize with the characters, you got them.

 

[madelinemasoch]

Two things in my opinion.
First, is significant time spent setting the stage. Explain the world as the characters go about their lives.
Second is well thought out, relatable characters.
When a reader can mentally see the setting and empathize with the characters, you got them.

Do you think I did that enough in Eleanor Winter Part I? If it's not so, then what do I have to change for Part II to resonate deeper? I really need this to work for everyone involved.

 

[Rob_Royale]

Interracial isn't my usual stomping grounds, but I'll try to make time to read it later in the week.

 

[mildlyaroused]

Eleanor let her dress down over her slave's head, leaving her in darkness beneath her, where she truly belonged. She would keep her there for hours upon hours, all night if need be, she did not care. She shuddered a moan as a lightning bolt of pleasure crackled up the thickness of her body and squeezed down hard on her tit with her right hand.

I read a bit of your story. This is a resonant image. The darkness Madeline is in, her belonging in that darkness, the fact that it is specifically and uncompromisingly Eleanor's decision as to how long she will stay in that darkness. You've conveyed these themes very well.

This is in my eyes the key: the connective tissue between character and action (whether than be sex or otherwise). In this excerpt, the dynamics are very clear. That's really well done. This is the basis for making the reader feel what you want them to.

I haven't read the whole story, but one thing you might want to consider (forgive me if this is touched on more later in the narrative):

Try to give the readers tasters for why the dynamics are the way they are. The root cause of traits such as dominance are more illustrative of a character than the dominance itself. The fact is that not all readers will relate to the femdom side of a character - but all readers might relate to the root of that trait. So exploring the universally human sides of character traits in relation to those traits can make the story more resonant with everyone.

Another thing to consider is that in the realm of dominance there is usually some nuance. I would suggest thinking of some more psychological of subtle ways of displaying the dominance. Eleanor is very confident, very expressive of her role, which is fine. But how does this nature translate into everyday life beyond demanding sexual things or servitude of people, or controlling the room? The people around her might be submissive, but there will be more to their characters than just being submissive. The world around her will have some pushback to dominance, because not everyone can be dominant.

The 'Whiteboy' is one example. I like how you tap into the fact that he's different to the 'bulls' around, and he is in the minority. Try to keep those subtleties and unique aspects of character going. How does he react differently to others when Eleanor gives him this attention? And how is Eleanor's experience here different to other experiences she's had? Your build-up to the sexual moments are really good (he's different somehow to the 'bulls', and Madeline is in the back of Eleanor's mind), but sometimes the action sort of swamps out those bits once it gets going. This is normal, but try to keep those through lines of character consistent.

Overall you've done a really good job and I think that particular story does resonate. These are just some suggestions. Take them as you will, your writing is very good.

 

[ElectricBlue]

I have my own vision. I want only to express that vision in a way that others shall behold the same exact vision. This is the only way I will survive,

You need to write deep passionate stories that express yourself, but you also need to develop an ability to step back from yourself, to be very critical of your writing. You think your writing expresses your desires, but your threads here demonstrate that your writing is failing in some way to express them.

At first you said about readers, "Why don't they see what I'm saying?", then you tried to define a universal reader, how do I reach them?

The nub of it though, is your writing. You need to test yourself not as you, the writer, but put yourself into the mind of a reader and ask, "What do these words say to me?"

Indeed, you have a very strong vision, and I can feel your ache to express it. But you need to develop your strengths as a writer, if you want readers to feel that same ache.

Keep going.

 

[lovecraft68]

The issue with femdom stories is the amount of insecure men who can't handle them, but continue to troll and abuse the stories.

Also, a lot of women in BDSM prefer to read stories where the woman is submissive(playing into man baby fantasy unfortunately.)

Nothing any author does is going to change people's tastes or insecurities, so you may as well just write however you want to write.

Putting femdom in fetish rather than BDSM will get you less abuse and maybe some better reception because there are actual men reading in the fetish category.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

You aren't asking the exact same question in the thread title and in your post. I've read some of your stuff before and you don't need to compromise with the type of stories you write in order to make them a bit more relatable. I won't lie, the stuff you write is hard to relate to, not because it's femdom or because it's harsh but because it focuses on humiliation so much.

Still, there are ways to make readers relate more. The characters are the key in this sense. You usually start your stories with already formed characters and relationships, with the femdom already close to eleven.
You need to make your readers understand not only what characters are doing in the story but also why they are doing it. Why does your dominant female do what she does, why does she crave the subjugation and humiliation of the male character(s); how does that make her feel, what emptiness is she filling with that? As far as I remember, you usually make your dominant female completely confident and self-assured but in my opinion, that only detracts from her humanity. She can have doubts and insecurities too. She can also question what she is doing sometimes.
The same thing goes for your male character(s). Why does he crave humiliation, why is he okay with being treated the way no one should?

My point is that you don't need to compromise with the type of content you write but in that case, you should give more depth to the motivations of your characters, the why's especially. That is how you make them more human, more relatable.

 

[SimonDoom]

I think the key, especially with challenging subject matter like what you enjoy (and there's nothing wrong with that, in my opinion) is to make the chief characters more relatable, or interesting. Not necessarily likeable, although that often helps, but you have to make the reader WANT to follow the character. You cannot assume that the reader, right off the bat, wants to see things exactly the way you do. You have to entice them, lead them there. The best way to do that is through the main character.

For example, I read part of Chapter 1 of Black and White. The POV character is Hally. You jump right into a scene with Hally, getting ready to have an encounter with Madison. I want to know Hally. I want to be interested in Hally. But in the first paragraph you describe her breasts as "succulent." That's not something a character ordinarily would think about themselves; that's something a third person, like an omniscient narrator, would think. So right off the bat there's a bit of dissonance in the narrative, a distancing element. I want to be inside Hally's head, but you don't quite take us there. What is she feeling and thinking? She has a conversation with Madison and expresses anger with having to deal with a racist encounter with a white person earlier. What does that have to do with the story? Hally seems angry, but that doesn't make her interesting, unless, through your narrative and her dialogue and encounters with others, you SHOW that she is interesting.

There's a big difference between finding a sexual scene erotic as an observer, and finding it erotic as a participant. I felt in this scene that you couldn't quite decide which you wanted it to be. Personally, I find it far more erotic when a story takes me into the head of a character and I can feel immersed in a scene as a participant. I did not feel that with this scene.

Please understand that none of this is a criticism of the subject matter of the story. I enjoy BDSM stories. I personally find male-dom stories more appealing, but that's just because I'm a hetero male and not a sub. Fem dom is a great subject for a story. But giving the domme's perspective, which is what you want to do, is challenging to do. You have to find a hook in your domme character that will interest the reader more.

 

[SimonDoom]

Another follow up to my last comment, concerning how to make your Fem Dom more "relatable."

Work up a backstory to the character (Hally, or whoever). The backstory doesn't necessarily have to go in your story, but it can help YOU as the author figure out the best way to tell Hally's story to make it interesting.

1. Why does Hally like being a Dom? What does she get out of it?
2. What does she most enjoy about the experience?
3. How did she become a Dom?
4. Is there a particular challenge, or something she wants to get, out of her next experience with Madison? You have to create anticipation for the scene.
5. What is Hally like when she's not being a Dom? Is she an assertive, dominating person, or is this a role that is at odds with her day to day persona? There's lots of opportunity to create interest here.
6. What is Hally's most appealing quality?
7. What is Hally's most interesting quality?
8. What is Hally good at?
9. What is Hally bad at?
10. Are there aspects of her life in which she acts contrary to her Dom role? Is she kind with puppies? Nice to strangers? Does she ever act submissively with people in the "real world?"

 

[AG31]

I have my own vision. I want only to express that vision in a way that others shall behold the same exact vision. This is the only way I will survive, I'm not compromising with the existing social sexual system. How do you write a scene in a way in which the audience understands exactly what you pictured, and feels exactly what you felt in response to that picture? This is all I want to achieve. If you're going to say it's a fool's errand, then I do not want to hear your opinion. I only want commentary that will enhance my will and sexual instincts, not stifle or stultify them. This comes from a place of desperation, and not a place of adversarialness.

I'm with you. That's what I want too. I call it "finding like-minded people." I'm not looking to widen my audience. You just have to go inside yourself and make sure you're not just reporting stuff, but describing stuff. Then you just wait for like-minded people to find you.

I've read some of your stuff, and it has vividness and passion. I'm not a like-minded person, but I think you're writing the right way.

 

[AG31]

Two things in my opinion.
First, is significant time spent setting the stage. Explain the world as the characters go about their lives.
Second is well thought out, relatable characters.
When a reader can mentally see the setting and empathize with the characters, you got them.

I totally disagree. Continue on your trajectory of writing simple erotica. Evoke the experience as best you can. Wait for like-minded people to find you.

 

[AG31]

You need to write deep passionate stories that express yourself, but you also need to develop an ability to step back from yourself, to be very critical of your writing. You think your writing expresses your desires, but your threads here demonstrate that your writing is failing in some way to express them.

At first you said about readers, "Why don't they see what I'm saying?", then you tried to define a universal reader, how do I reach them?

The nub of it though, is your writing. You need to test yourself not as you, the writer, but put yourself into the mind of a reader and ask, "What do these words say to me?"

Indeed, you have a very strong vision, and I can feel your ache to express it. But you need to develop your strengths as a writer, if you want readers to feel that same ache.

Keep going.

Ditto!!!

 

[AG31]

I think the key, especially with challenging subject matter like what you enjoy (and there's nothing wrong with that, in my opinion) is to make the chief characters more relatable, or interesting. Not necessarily likeable, although that often helps, but you have to make the reader WANT to follow the character. You cannot assume that the reader, right off the bat, wants to see things exactly the way you do. You have to entice them, lead them there. The best way to do that is through the main character.

For example, I read part of Chapter 1 of Black and White. The POV character is Hally. You jump right into a scene with Hally, getting ready to have an encounter with Madison. I want to know Hally. I want to be interested in Hally. But in the first paragraph you describe her breasts as "succulent." That's not something a character ordinarily would think about themselves; that's something a third person, like an omniscient narrator, would think. So right off the bat there's a bit of dissonance in the narrative, a distancing element. I want to be inside Hally's head, but you don't quite take us there. What is she feeling and thinking? She has a conversation with Madison and expresses anger with having to deal with a racist encounter with a white person earlier. What does that have to do with the story? Hally seems angry, but that doesn't make her interesting, unless, through your narrative and her dialogue and encounters with others, you SHOW that she is interesting.

There's a big difference between finding a sexual scene erotic as an observer, and finding it erotic as a participant. I felt in this scene that you couldn't quite decide which you wanted it to be. Personally, I find it far more erotic when a story takes me into the head of a character and I can feel immersed in a scene as a participant. I did not feel that with this scene.

Please understand that none of this is a criticism of the subject matter of the story. I enjoy BDSM stories. I personally find male-dom stories more appealing, but that's just because I'm a hetero male and not a sub. Fem dom is a great subject for a story. But giving the domme's perspective, which is what you want to do, is challenging to do. You have to find a hook in your domme character that will interest the reader more.

I disagree. Good, articulate reply, but I disagree. You're writing simple erotica, as far as what I've read (not a lot). Make the experience vivid. Forget the character. Wait patiently for like-minded readers. If I were into your thing (I refuse to use the word kink), I would read your stuff.

 

[TarnishedPenny]

Without in any way trying to get you to compromise, permit me to say that every writer faces the same problem if they want to produce stuff that is more than superficial.

There’s truth in the old line that our largest sex organ is our brain and therein lies to answer to your basic question. Anybody can write (draw/film/etc) stuff that will turn people on sexually. To go beyond that reptile-brain level, I think you have to get them thinking, using their own imaginations, working to see the scene as the artist originally envisioned it. You need to help them imagine they are there, participating.

With that said, IMHO, to move beyond mere strokers, the sort of questions Simon asks are important. Anybody can write Tab A was inserted into Slot B. And there’s a place for that, to be sure. But to make them understand how you meant them to feel, you’re probably going to want to tell the reader the less obvious stuff, feelings, backstory and such.

 

[AG31]

Madeline, you're unusual and many of your posts are questions about how to be ordinary. That's a lost cause. Celebrate your unusualness!!!!!

 

[madelinemasoch]

Thank you all for your good advice. This is exactly what I needed and was asking for.

 

[madelinemasoch]

You need to write deep passionate stories that express yourself, but you also need to develop an ability to step back from yourself, to be very critical of your writing. You think your writing expresses your desires, but your threads here demonstrate that your writing is failing in some way to express them.

At first you said about readers, "Why don't they see what I'm saying?", then you tried to define a universal reader, how do I reach them?

The nub of it though, is your writing. You need to test yourself not as you, the writer, but put yourself into the mind of a reader and ask, "What do these words say to me?"

Indeed, you have a very strong vision, and I can feel your ache to express it. But you need to develop your strengths as a writer, if you want readers to feel that same ache.

Keep going.

I appreciate that immensely. However, I'm left wondering, which reader do I place myself in the perspective of in order to achieve this kind of editing and revision of the intuitive notions which I put to paper? I would appreciate if you could explain to me this, without reference to prior audiences, but in reference to something deeper. Otherwise, I'm not sure I can conduct the task of putting myself in the other's shoes. The other in question has to be given decisive definition if I'm able to do that.

 

[nice90sguy]

I have my own vision. I want only to express that vision in a way that others shall behold the same exact vision

The last stanza of Burn's "Ode to a Louse":

Oh, would some Power the gift to give us
To see ourselves as others see us!

That sums it up for me. Language is humanity's best attempt at bridging the subjectivity gap, but it will never be perfect.

If you naturally relate to the sub in a story you're writing , spend some time imagining being the dom, and try to make them a real, relatable person. That's pretty much all it takes.

I write femdom stories, pretty much exclusively. Readers are often disappointed that "my" femdom differs so much from theirs. But I've also found that one or two (literally, just one or two) people share my point of view and can relate. That's good enough for me to continue writing.

 

[Omenainen]

I appreciate that immensely. However, I'm left wondering, which reader do I place myself in the perspective of in order to achieve this kind of editing and revision of the intuitive notions which I put to paper? I would appreciate if you could explain to me this, without reference to prior audiences, but in reference to something deeper. Otherwise, I'm not sure I can conduct the task of putting myself in the other's shoes. The other in question has to be given decisive definition if I'm able to do that.

One starting point to self-editing is the ability to see not what you meant, but what you actually wrote. Authors know their characters and their motivations, and often like and understand their characters, and can easily gloss over something because they know what the character is thinking or why they're acting the way they are. Sometimes, we edit out things that make some later circumstance less comprehensive. Some write plotty plots and consciously limit to what the reader knows in order to make some astonishing reveal (something I feel I'd never be able to pull off ).

So, the reader whose position you should place yourself is you as a reader. Imagine it's not your story and you're seeing it for the first time. For me it's often helpful to let the story sit for, say, 1-2 weeks, but then I forget easily and I have no idea what those authors do who remember their stuff better... read the story like you saw it for the first time, and try to evaluate objectively what impression you are making. If it is what you went after, perfect. If not, edit accordingly.

It's usual that when writing, we can write wrong words, or skip over words or entire sentences that we just know should be there and so we glide over the lack easily. When editing for content we need to see what's being said more precisely. It's a different editing pass than editing for grammar and such.

Hope this helps in some way. Obviously I don't know anything about your process.

 

[HordHolm]

I would add to @Omenainen, if writing towards a 'reveal' there is nothing wrong, and a lot right, with including pointers ahead of time that there will be a reveal. This helps the reader to feel clever, if they spot the reveal before they reach it. Think of it like working out 'who did it' in a detective novel before Poirot gets the principals together to tell them who poisoned the fish.

 

[oneagainst]

I struggled with much of this in writing Alena's Game. It's a hardcore femdom tale from the point of view that the wife takes *everything*, not necessarily that there is bondage and torture, etc. Each chapter was a razor's edge, trying to write just enough to show the progression of Alena and her husband into a 24/7 FLR without falling off that edge into cartoonish femdom tropes in one direction or pulling the punch and skipping over the meat of a plot point in the other direction.

There is a twist of the knife in these stories, a sort of slow-motion erotic horror (or release) as the MC finally surrenders to a life of slavery. It's a visceral thing, and when passing over the paragraphs you know instinctively if you've hit the target or not. If not, go away and come back again until you get it right. Too often in stories, you see the build-up, the exposition and then a single paragraph that misses the goal completely. The art of the thing is to first of all know you missed it, and then to retry until you feel it in your guts. One trick I used on Alena's Game was, after surfacing from the story writing, I put it into the archive and didn't read it for six months. Then, passing through it after the elapsed time, you're distant enough to read it as a reader, and need to be scathingly critical of the author's missed opportunities.

The highest praise is to receive a comment that the reader wasn't into the subject matter, but had to read on to find out how the character felt. The other crucial point in femdom, due to the comments that come in from both the anti- and pro- camps as you publish each installment is the *only voices you should pay attention to* are your FMC and MMC. They know what they're doing, if you've built their characters with enough care that they can come alive, and you need to trust their judgement.

 

[AG31]

I appreciate that immensely. However, I'm left wondering, which reader do I place myself in the perspective of in order to achieve this kind of editing and revision of the intuitive notions which I put to paper?

Yourself. Imagine that you are reading someone else's story. The concept fits your preferences exactly. But do they deliver? I re-read one of my stories for the first time in a couple of years on Saturday. I was dumbfounded about the degree to which I just reported acts that had been vivid in my mind, with no attempt to make them vivid in the mind of my reader. My sympathetic reader. I don't see any future in trying to persuade someone that your fantasy should be adopted by your reader. They're either like minded or their not.

Go to one of your old stories. Imagine that you hadn't written it, but really like the concept. How can you make it more vivid?

I'm having a lot of fun going through my disappointing old story line by line and thinking hard about what the MC was actually feeling. There'll be enough changes that I'll actually re-submit it to Lit when I'm done.

 

[AG31]

Oh, would some Power the gift to give us
To see ourselves as others see us!

It's more fun the way Burns actually wrote it.

O wad some Pow'r the giftie gie us
To see oursels as ithers see us!

 

[SimonDoom]

I appreciate that immensely. However, I'm left wondering, which reader do I place myself in the perspective of in order to achieve this kind of editing and revision of the intuitive notions which I put to paper?

There have been some good responses to this question in this thread since you wrote it. The common theme, I think, is to become a better, more critical, and more discerning reader of your own writing. I agree with AG31 that you don't need to become somebody else; just be a more discerning version of yourself. Constantly ask, why should the reader care? Why do YOU care? Answer that question very carefully, and honestly, and ask if you are putting everything on paper that adequately compels you to care, or if you are leaving something out. In reading the passage of your story that I described above, I felt you left things out about Hally and Madison that would have made it a more compelling story.