Abandoned series.

[lovecraft68]

For those interested, go for it...

View attachment 2310510

It needs to be updated to say "Post the same five threads over and over."

 

[ElectricBlue]

Right?

I really have no objection to fan speculation.

To our one day old MULTs badly made point. Its not an abandoned car. Its a parked bus, full of passengers. They are all entitled to discuss where they thought they were headed or where they might have ended up, or when they think the driver might return, but their only real options are to stay on the bus and keep wondering, or get off.

Unless the driver handed you in particular the keys and gave you instructions how to proceed before they stepped off the bus, you just need to sit there until you decide to leave.

Hot wiring the bus unilaterally is not a legitimate option.

I like this analogy! It's certainly better than the usual stuff on this topic, which generally boils down to writers' ethics and who has a set. It's always easy to spot those who don't.

Yep, my keys, my bus.

For me, it's always, "Don't steal my characters, write your own."

 

[Voboy]

Right there! There's a big misconception in this seemingly simple statement. A derivative sequel is NOT YOUR story!

No, but the material upon which that "derivative sequel" is based is most definitely YOUR story. You use the word "derivative," and that's fine, but words, characters, settings, conflicts, and ideas from which that sequel is "derived" don't belong to the sequel-writer. So therefore, all the new shit they write in the sequel isn't really new: it's based on somebody else's work. You might presume that earlier writer doesn't GAF about the story anymore, but you're not a mind-reader and you don't really know. Do you?

Writers of "derivative sequels" don't possess the IP on which they base their work. But they could. If those writers would simply, I dunno, write their own new story?

You wrote a bunch more, but if it's all based on the premise above? Then it's not worthwhile. Sorry.

 

[StillStunned]

I'll take you seriously when I see it in your bio. Until then, you and the others are nothing but hypocrites.

I don't see how the one follows from the other. Why is EB a hypocrite for not wanting others to use his stories without having to make an explicit announcement? Do you think that he's shouting things on this thread, but secretly condoning it to annoy you?

 

[Voboy]

I don't see how the one follows from the other. Why is EB a hypocrite for not wanting others to use his stories without having to make an explicit announcement? Do you think that he's shouting things on this thread, but secretly condoning it to annoy you?

I THINK @ClickHerePal has an idee-fixe that all of us who claim to write original content aren't really as original as we think we are, but since he's not made that point persuasively (to me, anyway), I'm not sure where it comes from nor where he's going with that.

That's the context in which I read that anti-EB post.

 

[ShelbyDawn57]

Not a circle, it's a death spiral...

@AwkwardlySet
I should have added another loop.

 

[SimonDoom]

To me, this is the crux of the entire question. Everyone bringing up laws or statutes or policies is, I think, missing the point: that your story is YOUR story, not anyone else's. So it follows that someone else's story BELONGS TO THEM, and is not yours to mess with.

I agree this is the most salient point. The law of fair use and fanfiction has some ambiguities, and reasonable people can disagree on the ethics of borrowing elements from previously written stories. But put all that aside, and you still have the issue of basic courtesy, and the high risk that by writing a sequel to an author's story without their permission you will offend the author and cause them grief if they find out. I don't understand how one can disregard that risk and keep falling back on, "But I want to finish the story! I want to!"

 

[SimonDoom]

Right?

I really have no objection to fan speculation.

To our one day old MULTs badly made point. Its not an abandoned car. Its a parked bus, full of passengers. They are all entitled to discuss where they thought they were headed or where they might have ended up, or when they think the driver might return, but their only real options are to stay on the bus and keep wondering, or get off.

Unless the driver handed you in particular the keys and gave you instructions how to proceed before they stepped off the bus, you just need to sit there until you decide to leave.

Hot wiring the bus unilaterally is not a legitimate option.

You win the "Author's Hangout Analogy of the Day" award.

 

[Way2go]

Well, my innocuous question has certainly set the hills alight. The hypothetical idea of reviving a series, 15 years after the original author disappeared, has certainly brought out the passions and in a way that I could not have foreseen.

I have really enjoyed the input from those of you who have taken the time out to reply and you have given me food for thought.

Many thanks.

 

[Bazzle]

Well, my innocuous question has certainly set the hills alight. The hypothetical idea of reviving a series, 15 years after the original author disappeared, has certainly brought out the passions and in a way that I could not have foreseen.

I have really enjoyed the input from those of you who have taken the time out to reply and you have given me food for thought.

Many thanks.

Start again in your own voice and no one will complain

 

[Omenainen]

Right there! There's a big misconception in this seemingly simple statement. A derivative sequel is NOT YOUR story!

The premise, names, and settings of a story are merely a mold, an empty shell. Filling that shell with decent content is trickier than starting from scratch. The heart of the story is not its outline but the plot, dialogues, emotions, and conflicts--all these must feel fresh.

Spinning an intriguing and believable sequel while staying true to the original characters and style is almost an impossible task, as you don't have all the keys to the hidden locks.

Contrary to what's been said, readers don't wish to continue series or stories to attract followers or gain a reputation; that's BS. They fall in love with the characters and wish to make amends for them.

Some stories have a deeply built-in thematic flaw that bothers loyal readers enough to feel they need to fix it. I know this because I tried--twice but couldn't do it. I'm not just talking about the difficulty of sticking to the unique style and voice of the characters; I'm talking about an inherent contradiction in the original piece that cannot be resolved by a sequel.

The only practical way is to start all over and write your own story while drawing inspiration from the source, which many here actually do. But they're too proud or insecure to acknowledge the source. And this, in my eyes, is unethical. It's like a parasite sucking everything from its host and leaving it to rot, empty.

It's no coincidence that all the wordsmiths, who are so firmly against sequels, didn't bother to state in their bio that they don't allow sequels to their stories as they are fully aware of the implications for their long-term legacy.

Publishing content on an open platform like this, where anyone can download any content in a split second, is like parking your car on a main street in a bad neighborhood with the keys inside and the engine running. The least you can do is leave a note saying "I'll be right back."

You don't leave your car running and disappear for years if you value it! The fuel will eventually run out, and the engine will die, but some passers-by will still cry "Don't touch it! Don't check it, and don't protect it; let the dust and rust crumble it completely."

But here's the thing: A sequel is not taking another's car for a ride--that would be publishing the original story as if it's their own. A sequel is building a vehicle similar to yours and driving it to places it's never been before.

I get that as long as you're active, you expect to be asked first, but why do you care what happens after you kick the bucket? After others kick the bucket...

So your argument is that because stealing is easy it should be allowed?

I have no idea what you’re blabbering about with “too proud to acknowledge the source” or some mysterious writers being “fully aware of the implications for their long-term legacy” - you know, I didn’t agree with the person who said all writing here is second-rate turds, but I also doubt that many people write here pondering about their “long-term legacy.”

For what it’s worth, I did put “don’t steal my stuff” note in my bio because these inane threads keep popping up. In my opinion not stealing should be the default behavior, and people should not have to say that explicitly. It’s not valid logic to say that people who have posted before these Wild West plagiarist days and thus haven’t included some kind of clauses in their bio would be fair game. Copyright expires 70 years after the death of the author. For all practical purposes that means not continuing stories of people who aren’t active on the site anymore.

On the other hand, anyone being okay with others taking their stories and riffing off them might consider stating that in their bio.

 

[Omenainen]

Well, my innocuous question has certainly set the hills alight. The hypothetical idea of reviving a series, 15 years after the original author disappeared, has certainly brought out the passions and in a way that I could not have foreseen.

I have really enjoyed the input from those of you who have taken the time out to reply and you have given me food for thought.

Many thanks.

Think about why that story appeals to you and write an original one to scratch that itch. This is a great hobby for many, you should try if this is true for you. Just do it in your own words, in your own way, and not based on someone else’s work.

 

[SimonDoom]

How many times have you been asked for permission to create a sequel for one of your stories?

I don't remember. Over the 7+ years I've been writing stories, perhaps just a couple of times. But I've been writing stories pretty steadily that whole time AND been an active participant in this forum and people might assume I wouldn't allow that so they don't ask. Actually, if asked, I would probably say "yes."

I remember one time in 2017, there was a five-month gap between the publication of chapters five and six of a series I was writing, and an exasperated reader posted a comment to the story addressing the other commenters and he said this: " Anyone willing to write the next stage as this author has gone awol?" I was amused and responded right after that I had not gone AWOL and intended to resume the series, which I did later that month and then wrapped up a few months later. I thought that was pretty funny. AWOL after less than five months! That's presumptuous.

I have series that have lain fallow for seven and four years, but that I still intend to finish. If someone asked me if they could continue them, I'd probably say no because I want to be the first to finish them. But I feel no obligation to make an affirmative statement in the story or in my bio. That seems silly, given the Site's clear statement that I own the copyright and that anyone wanting to continue my story should ask my permission first. I think we should all be able to rely on that and expect that other authors have read the Site's rules as well.

 

[Omenainen]

No, I think they're not touched but they're aching to be...

Oh, I’m aware I’m not the author the masses would flock to rip off and plagiarize, thank $deity. It doesn’t change the basic principle.

I also don’t write series, much less unfinished ones, so I don’t know what anyone could possibly want to continue.

One person was once inspired by mine, and wrote a chapter in their own series because of that. They also asked me if I wanted to be mentioned in the author’s note of that story, and offered me to see the story before it was published. It was very polite and appropriate and makes me happy to this day. I’m not against people nodding in each other’s direction and doing all sorts of collaborations and whatnot. It just needs to be consensual.

Also, if someone wanted to continue any of mine, I think the first question I would have is “let me see what else you have written.” I most definitely wouldn’t give some kind of anything goes permission to someone who had nothing to show for their skill or style.

 

[alohadave]

idee-fixe

Ooh, fancy new word. I might try to work that in to a story.

I THINK @ClickHerePal has an idee-fixe that all of us who claim to write original content aren't really as original as we think we are

We really aren't that original. There isn't anything new under the sun and pretty much any idea has been done many times before. But that's not the same thing as copying someone else's work and building off their story.

 

[Omenainen]

If you inferred from my long and detailed post that writing a sequel is akin to stealing, well... luckily for you, forum rules prevent me from expressing my true thoughts. Now, be a pal and put me on ignore, as I can't promise to be chivalrous the next time.

Well you made some kind of a silly car comparison. No matter where the car is parked and in what condition it is and if there’s keys or not, if it’s not yours it’s not yours. You don’t even need to know whose it is, all you need to know is that it is not yours. This is not complicated.

 

[StillStunned]

Ooh, fancy new word. I might try to work that in to a story.

 

[alohadave]

View attachment 2310621

This is messing with my brain. Even though I know it isn't, the head feels backwards.

 

[ElectricBlue]

I'll take you seriously when I see it in your bio. Until then, you and the others are nothing but hypocrites.

Why should I put it there? It's basic writers ethics. Where's the hypocrisy in that?

 

[AwkwardMD]

Well, I do hope your writing skills surpass your reading skills, as you seemingly missed this part:

I've found the root problem. You suck at analogies. Nobody would see a sequel as being, within the metaphor, a different car.

 

[Omenainen]

Why not? Just for safety.

Many would rightfully argue that a derivative, amateurish, uncommercial sequel might fall under the definition of fair use. So why not put that little note on the dashboard?

They would be wrong to argue that. This has been covered in the thread already.

 

[ShelbyDawn57]

Just to reiterate for those who missed it; the rough circle on my screen shot of the ‘Post Thread’ button was a death spiral..

 

[StillStunned]

Just to reiterate for those who missed it; the rough circle on my screen shot of the ‘Post Thread’ button was a death spiral..

I recall a teacher at school talking about a "spiral of Verelendung".

 

[BobbyBrandt]

I don't post incomplete stories, so that should mitigate the interest of others wanting to "continue" any of those for that reason.

I frequently get requests from readers for "more", but these requests always refer to the characters being well liked and a desire to see more stories that include them. This is between me and my readers and no one ever has the right to infringe on that fact, even if I'm dead. I shouldn't have to ask someone to wash their hands before offering to shake mine, and I shouldn't have to post anything in my profile declaring my rights as the creator of my stories.

I do have two series here, but each of these is comprised of completed episodes. One has a common theme (sex with celebrities before they became famous), and one has common characters (an uncle and his nieces).

In the case of the first series, that theme is wide open to anyone who wants to write something, and I wouldn't make a squeak, even if they used my titling convention for their story or wrote about the same celebrity, as long as my other characters in the stories are left out of theirs.

Someone else is free to write uncle/niece stories as well, just not with my characters.

 

[BobbyBrandt]

Why not? Just for safety.

Many would rightfully argue that a derivative, amateurish, uncommercial sequel might fall under the definition of fair use. So why not put that little note on the dashboard?