Abandoned series.

[Rob_Royale]

Wow, this again?

 

[AwkwardMD]

Speaking of hypocritical, did you get Bioware's explicit permission to use their Old Republic setting for your "Dark Matter" stories?

Remember that time when you left the site? That was cool.

 

[jhealy55]

I'm pretty sure you've got that the wrong way around. The site administrators here seem pretty much oblivious to their responsibilities (and vulnerabilities) on a few levels under copyright law.

But to be fair, they do seem to err on the side if what keeps people submitting content that fits the guidelines here.

If this kind of thing gets out of control and causes writers to start pulling down work to protect it from those who think 'sharing' includes using and taking things for their own benefit, without the permission of the owner, I think it would initiate a stronger response.

If its really just two people doing all the work, I'm not shocked that they would stay out of most of the dust ups unless someone reaches out directly for help.

No community can function unless 95%+ of the members do the right thing without any policing. It also relies upon a lot of people looking out for one another. Without that you have despotism, or a failed state, which usually results in despotism shortly thereafter. In either case, the ones who create and produce hit the exits pretty quickly in search of more hospitable places to work.

Unless that comment ties out to something with the other poster where I missed the backstory. In which case, never mind.

 

[KeithD]

But to be fair, they do seem to err on the side if what keeps people submitting content that fits the guidelines here.

Which, however, isn't really in the realm of fairness.

The area where the site really falls down in enforcing copyright law is in image reposting, I think. I'd guess that fully three-quarters of the avatars here are stolen images, for instance. (Mine aren't. They are paid-for cover images.)

 

[AwkwardlySet]

This thread depicts perfectly everything that is wrong about this place. Double standards, alleged expertise, selective moralizing, ad hominems, and as a special guest - Laurel in the role of goddess supreme of right and wrong. I propose we pin this thread.

 

[Cagivagurl]

I think most of the posts have been CAN'T, not SHOULDN'T.

Let me give you an example of a great SHOULDN'T post:

The post discusses both sides of the issue, sticks to the facts, and ends with personal advice.

On the other hand:




do not sound like SHOULDN'T posts to me. I pulled several of the posts from a thread earlier in the week on a similar topic. The majority of the posts I have seen in this thread and that one I would consider COULDN'T posts.


My opinion is that my opinion doesn't matter. More specifically, it only matters to me. Lovecraft68 posted that, given that the site appears to publish stories that are derivative of other Literotica authors' stories, it's up to individual authors as to what they will do. When I came across CB_Grl_Dani's Brady Family Tent Swap Pt. 01, I was shocked that someone would rewrite another Literotica author's story. I thought it was incredibly disrespectful to the original author. But after many other fights on the AH, I've come to accept that the only way to not get into endless pointless arguments was to accept that whatever the site published is fine.


I found what Laurel said to be ambiguous. I read it as being consistent with what the site has been doing, which is that you should try to get permission from the author first, but if they don't respond, you are free to submit a story that is a derivative of theirs with the understanding that Laurel will take the story down if the original author complains.

One possibility is that Laurel has changed her mind and now requires explicit permission from the original author but is grandfathering all prior stories that didn't get the original author's permission. That's why I recommended to the OP to contact Laurel.


You are not a copyright law expert. Do you know who I think is a copyright law expert? Laurel, as her livelihood depends on getting it right. There's absolutely no point in you making pronouncements on copyright law that are contrary to what the site publishes. What you say about copyright law, to me, is incompatible with Literotica having Fan Fiction stories. I have tried to reverse engineer a legal explanation for why Literotica publishes what it does, but I know it's meaningless because I am not a copyright law expert. Whatever Laurel believes about copyright law trumps whatever you or I believe about copyright law.

If you read what I wrote. I did say it was my opinion only.
I was not speaking on behalf of the universe. Merely expressing my opinion.
We all have differing views on this subject. You clearly have yours.
I am not a legal expert, but I do believe a work, in whatever form it takes. Belongs to the creator.

Just my opinion.

Cagivagurl

 

[Voboy]

Mate, you really should NOT comment on any matter to do with what is ethical and courteous within a writing community, not with your proven track record of plagiarism. Do yourself a favour - shut up.

I'm not sure @8letters read this, because there was certainly no direct reply, but... well.

It's kinda important. Lol.

 

[EmilyMiller]

Could everyone, like, maybe chill a bit.

Is it really important enough to get into being upset with each other?

I know there in history here, but best to stick to arguments, not what someone has done or their personality.

I’m trying to have a nice night out; been a while.

Emily

 

[lovecraft68]

Topics like this are proof the definition of insanity is an accurate one.

 

[Bramblethorn]

I think there are cases where it's legitimate to write in somebody else's setting and/or story without their consent. In particular, when a work of fiction becomes so culturally pervasive that people are naming their kids for it, trying to get it recognised as a religion, or invoking it as part of RL political discourse, well... if something gets rammed down people's throats often enough, they probably have a right to spit some of it back up.

We can argue about just what the circumstances are where it's okay to write fanfic/continuation without consent, or even directly against the author's express wishes. If people think it's ethical to do so with Literotica stories, go ahead and make the argument for that. But I do think it's sleazy to suggest that no response equals consent, or that authors should feel honoured to have it done to them.

 

[Voboy]

Could everyone, like, maybe chill a bit.

Is it really important enough to get into being upset with each other?

I know there in history here, but best to stick to arguments, not what someone has done or their personality.

I’m trying to have a nice night out; been a while.

Emily

I dunno. I tend to think the ethics of writing are important enough to get passionate about, on a site where few other things are. There's no way we can affect a host of things on this site; having discussions of this kind of thing might lead to some changed minds, or at least it might force people to articulate their thoughts and arguments. I think there's value there.

I also think it's legitimate to question the motives of people making claims, based on the way they've handled themselves in the past.

 

[EmilyMiller]

I dunno. I tend to think the ethics of writing are important enough to get passionate about, on a site where few other things are. There's no way we can affect a host of things on this site; having discussions of this kind of thing might lead to some changed minds, or at least it might force people to articulate their thoughts and arguments. I think there's value there.

I also think it's legitimate to question the motives of people making claims, based on the way they've handled themselves in the past.

I didn’t mean we shouldn’t express opinions. As my bf says - play the ball not the man (doesn’t work in our football really, but I get the sentiment).

Emily

 

[SimonDoom]

You are not a copyright law expert. Do you know who I think is a copyright law expert? Laurel, as her livelihood depends on getting it right. There's absolutely no point in you making pronouncements on copyright law that are contrary to what the site publishes. What you say about copyright law, to me, is incompatible with Literotica having Fan Fiction stories. I have tried to reverse engineer a legal explanation for why Literotica publishes what it does, but I know it's meaningless because I am not a copyright law expert. Whatever Laurel believes about copyright law trumps whatever you or I believe about copyright law.

I don't like arguments from authority, because I believe the truth of a position rests upon the quality of the argument rather than upon the credentials of the person making the argument. You don't know whether I'm a copyright law expert or not, so you are engaged in unjustified speculation. I'm not going to give you details, but I WILL tell you that I've been a lawyer for over thirty years, with a broad business-based practice, and my academic and professional experience with and knowledge of copyright law certainly exceeds Laurel's, or yours, or anyone else's in this forum who is giving the misguided opinion that writing a sequel to a story is a form of "fair use" under US copyright law. It's not so, and that position is not supported by published "fair use" decisions such as the Acuff-Rose "Pretty Woman" case, or the 1984 Betamax case, or the more recent Andy Warhol case, or any published fair use case I can think of, and I've read a lot of 'em. Don't take my word for it. Do an online search for 17 USC section 107, the fair use statute, find the cases that interpret that statute, and read them. Law is not rocket science. You can't become an expert overnight, but with modest research, you can easily determine the falsity of many of the extravagant claims in this forum about what "fair use" doctrine allows you to do.

But let's put aside experience and credentials. That's a rabbit hole not worth going down in a forum populated by pseudonyms. You cannot infer anything about what the law IS from what Literotica DOES. Zip. Zilch. It has no legal meaning or consequence, other than giving one some comfort that one has a substantial chance of getting away with infringing conduct on a free website and in the broad context of "fanfiction." If you want to know what Literotica believes about copyright law, I think the best place to look is what its stated policy is. I have quoted what Laurel herself said. To the extent the actual practice varies from Laurel's statement, I don't think it's appropriate to make the assumption she doesn't really mean what she says, or that the law is something different from what she claims to follow. It's safer to assume that she means what she says but she's simply too busy to police what people do as diligently as she could with more time.

You can follow whatever principles you want to follow, but when people start these threads and ask questions about "what should I do?", authors are going to give their own answers, because these issues matter deeply to them, and it's not appropriate to start dropping f-bombs and accusing people of lying because you don't like their answers. I'll give you my own basic answer, and I don't expect anybody necessarily to adopt the same view, but if you ask me, this is what I'll say, when confronted with the question of whether I "can" or "should" publish something that is somehow based on something someone else has written:

First, I ask myself whether I might be infringing the author's copyright. I will not do that, even if the Site allows it. To be specific about what I mean, I feel free to write my own story that is based upon broad ideas contained in another author's work, because ideas are not protected by copyright, but I will not publish, without permission, a derivative work that takes the characters, names, text, and specific plot points of another story, UNLESS I determine that it's a fair use, meaning, usually, a parody. I wrote an erotic fanfiction story based on Lord of the Rings, and I thought long and hard about it, but I decided that it was enough of a silly, sexy spoof of the original material that it qualified as a parody, and therefore a fair use, much as the Harvard Lampoon's story "Bored of the Rings" was a legally permissible parody of the original material, or the way Weird Al Yankovic's silly songs are legal parodies of the underlying songs he spoofs.

I will qualify my response on this point in this way: If I am aware that the author in question is a famous author and has a recognized practice of allowing "fanfiction" that, strictly speaking, might be found to infringe copyright if actually challenged, I might be willing to write a fanfiction story, but I haven't done this yet and I don't foresee doing this. But I would NEVER do this with a Literotica author.

Second, I ask myself whether I might be violating the Site's STATED policy, in words or in spirit. I ignore what it allows in practice. I will not justify violating the letter of the policy on the ground that, "Oh well, Laurel doesn't really mean what she says. Just look at what she lets slip through the cracks." The stated policy is clear: you should seek the author's permission before writing the derivative story. She said that.

Third, I consider whether what I want to do is consistent with plagiarism principles and whether I need to give credit to someone. That rarely comes up in the context of fiction, as opposed to academic writing. Giving credit is not a defense to copyright infringement. And, as long as copyright principles are satisfied, it is rarely necessary in the context of fiction to give credit to the author of a previous work that contains broad creative ideas one incorporates in one's own story. Broad creative ideas are matters of public domain, to be shared freely without compunction. To give an example, I wrote a story based on the exhibitionist nude "mailgirl" concept, which I discovered in another author's story. Numerous authors have written "mailgirl" stories. It's not a proprietary idea, and no author has an ethical obligation to credit prior authors of mailgirl stories. I did so anyway, when I published my story, because I wanted readers to know about the authors of other stories of the type that they might enjoy.

Fourth, I consider, apart from the law or Laurel's rules, whether there's a significant risk that the author would consider what I was doing wrong or discourteous. I think it's CRYSTAL clear, from the input that authors in this forum keep giving in the many threads that have addressed this issue, that there is such a significant risk, and that many authors would be deeply offended to see derivative works of their works published without permission, so it seems to me that, law and ethics aside, courtesy requires that I ask the author's permission, and, not getting it, I will not publish the work. It seems absurdly presumptuous and egotistical to me to assume that I'm doing the author a favor when the author hasn't consented to the publication of the derivative work and I have no idea whether the author would consider it a favor.

I would NOT publish a sequel or derivative work of another Literotica author's story without going through all four steps and deciding to my satisfaction that I had satisfied all four.

Whether I can get away with it is not a consideration. There is a high probability that if the Site lets my story through, I will get away with even egregious copyright infringements, just because it's highly likely that the copyright owner will never notice what's going on here, or, if they do, won't find it worthwhile to pursue me because there's no money in it. But the prospect of getting away with it, to me, is irrelevant to the issues of copyright, site rules, plagiarism, ethics, and courtesy.

But that's just me. Others can do what they want to do, and there's a good chance that because of Literotica's sometimes inconsistent enforcement policies and skeletal enforcement infrastructure, they will get away with whatever choice they make IF Laurel lets the story get through.

 

[Voboy]

...it seems to me that, law and ethics aside, courtesy requires that I ask the author's permission, and, not getting it, I will not publish the work. It seems absurdly presumptuous and egotistical to me to assume that I'm doing the author a favor when the author hasn't consented to the publication of the derivative work and I have no idea whether the author would consider it a favor.

To me, this is the crux of the entire question. Everyone bringing up laws or statutes or policies is, I think, missing the point: that your story is YOUR story, not anyone else's. So it follows that someone else's story BELONGS TO THEM, and is not yours to mess with.

Just write your own stuff and don't write anyone else's. I'm not sure why that's a difficult concept.

 

[StillStunned]

One of the many frustrations in my life is that Sterling E. Lanier never completed his Hiero series. He wrote "Hiero's Journey" and "The Unforsaken Hiero", two amazing post-apocalyptic sci-fi novels populated by forester priests, psionic bears, pirates, druids, moose/horse hybrids, cat-people, intelligent beavers, giant riding rabbits and a friendly slug. And of course malevolent evildoers who use computers to boost their psychic powers.

The second book ends with an all-out war about to begin, the hero and his love separated by thousands of miles and the hint that they've only just uncovered the tip of the evil iceberg. And no third book was ever written.

Would I like to read the completed story? Of course! Would I even bother to read it if someone else wrote it, even with approval from SEL's estate? Not a chance. Unless there were extensive notes and pre-written passages, it would be nothing more than fan fiction. And in that case I'd prefer to write my own version.

But I'm not going to, because it's not my story, they aren't my characters, these weren't my ideas.

 

[ShelbyDawn57]

But I'm not going to, because it's not my story, they aren't my characters, these weren't my ideas.

This is why I'm failing to grasp this whole thread. maybe some people are just in for larger challenges than me. Picking up someone elses story, their characters and ideas. What a monumental lift to believe you can do it and especially to do it well. Kind of borders on literary narcissism to me.

And to the fan that wanted me to do a fan fiction piece where Ron Weasley was trans, the answer is still no.

 

[lovecraft68]

To me, this is the crux of the entire question. Everyone bringing up laws or statutes or policies is, I think, missing the point: that your story is YOUR story, not anyone else's. So it follows that someone else's story BELONGS TO THEM, and is not yours to mess with.

Just write your own stuff and don't write anyone else's. I'm not sure why that's a difficult concept.

This really should be the general attitude. I see it as I have plenty of my own ideas and don't need to poach other people's. I don't see it as a compliment to the original author, I see it as a lazy muse.

But again, if the site allows it, it comes down to personal feelings on the matter, and we keep getting those feelings repeated over and over again.

No one on either side is going to change the mind of the other side.

 

[lovecraft68]

I'm pretty sure you've got that the wrong way around. The site administrators here seem pretty much oblivious to their responsibilities (and vulnerabilities) on a few levels under copyright law.

Well said, and the reason subjects like this just keep running in circles.

Like in all areas of life, just because someone allows you to do something doesn't always mean you should.

 

[ShelbyDawn57]

This really should be the general attitude. I see it as I have plenty of my own ideas and don't need to poach other people's. I don't see it as a compliment to the original author, I see it as a lazy muse.

But again, if the site allows it, it comes down to personal feelings on the matter, and we keep getting those feelings repeated over and over again.

No one on either side is going to change the mind of the other side.

We are Borg. You will assimilate.

 

[jhealy55]

Thought occurred over coffee this morning.

Why not just start a thread, or category of threads, devoted to fan theories about how that story would/could/might extend if it did?

To wit, if you're trying to pay tribute to the original work, how better than that? Everyone interested could expound their own theories, make up their own endings and debate whether such musings were consistent with the original world and character development.

In which case, the original author, should they return, might feel encouraged to weigh in, complete the story as they had once intended, or engage the audience that no, the character as originally developed would never make a 90 degree pivot toward this or that particular kink, just because you, the fan, tend to enjoy those activities.

Also, I am starting to take objection to the term "abandoned". Its a faulty and ill-defined premise that assumes the original work is unwanted, unclaimed, or unvalued by the creator and thus open to being legitimately "claimed", rather than hijacked or stolen.

What is the statute of limitations? seven years? Seventy? Six months? At the point where i , one member of the audience, become impatient for the next installment.

In my mind, the first question to be asked is, "How did you determine that this work was 'abandoned' rather than just unfinished or on hold? The fact that someone 'claimed' they made efforts to reach the author and ask permission is evidence of nothing regarding the status of that work.

If 18 years old is the minimum age of participation here and the average life span s something like 78, can we assume that anything less than 60 years from the initial join date should be considered 'active' for any account in which the age is undefined in the user profile? I would be good with that as a measure, but anything less presumes that the author is not just taking a pause and fully intends to return.

 

[ShelbyDawn57]

Thought occurred over coffee this morning.

Why not just start a thread, or category of threads, devoted to fan theories about how that story would/could/might extend if it did?

For those interested, go for it...

 

[AwkwardlySet]

For those interested, go for it...

View attachment 2310510

Impressive mouse skills. Almost a perfect circle!

 

[ShelbyDawn57]

Impressive mouse skills. Almost a perfect circle!

Not a circle, it's a death spiral...

 

[AwkwardlySet]

Not a circle, it's a death spiral...

I smell an erotic horror story brewing

 

[jhealy55]

For those interested, go for it...

View attachment 2310510

Right?

I really have no objection to fan speculation.

To our one day old MULTs badly made point. Its not an abandoned car. Its a parked bus, full of passengers. They are all entitled to discuss where they thought they were headed or where they might have ended up, or when they think the driver might return, but their only real options are to stay on the bus and keep wondering, or get off.

Unless the driver handed you in particular the keys and gave you instructions how to proceed before they stepped off the bus, you just need to sit there until you decide to leave.

Hot wiring the bus unilaterally is not a legitimate option.