closed Thread

[ll74]

Said from far away of course they are!!

Said from close up they are as well.

 

[silky52]

I am sorry but the basic premise that civilian casualties of any given magnitude automatically indicates that you are on the wrong track is flawed. Those casualties should certainly give everyone pause but they are not proof positive that the alternative is superior.

Plus the fact that 75% is por more are not innocent civilians or otherwise. You guys aren't old enough to remember Vietnam, a similar situation and look how long that took the Americans to fathom!!

 

[ll74]

Absolutely, on all sides and among each side's respective allies. But unless we can surgically remove Hamas and everyone who thinks like them as well as the extremists in Israel that will be a long hard road and may involve violence.

Yes....and more fortitude than ever before.

The thing about casualties and violence is that it is a bit to easy to say war is stupid and it should be avoided. Of course it is stupid and should be avoided, but that only works if both sides feel that way. If one side is bound and determained to commit violence the other side has to deal with that and sometimes that requires force.

Which is why the effort for new leadership is important and needs to be called for loudly. Not just on one side.

 

[silky52]

It's easy - if the actions result in mass civilian casualties, think of different actions.


There are always more ways to reach objectives.


If Israel can demonstrate what they are doing to prevent civilians from dying (or minimizing them) then they can beat the media spin. But yes,.the level of civilian deaths due to erratic bombing has made the political winds shift. Austin said that it would.


The basis are a shitload of dead civilians.

Again, your 'shitload of dead civilians,' are Hamas-ISIS terrorists. Israel does not commit genocide. HI do, has done and has said they will do again. Why isn't the world listening?

 

[policywank]

You missed the word "mass".

Civilian casualties cannot be completely eliminated. I've never said otherwise.

The problem that Israel has, is that they've used more.bombs in a few months than the entire Afghan war. Most of them were high yield and dumb in densely populated areas. That is why they are losing support for their efforts and being questioned more on their objectives. They should be.

Then you are just inserting your own judgment as to how many casualties is too many and how the war should be conducted. Respectfully, what are your qualifications to conclude on either matter? Unless you served as a senior officer in the military and have intimate up to the minute knowledge from the IDF you are just a pundit like the rest of us.

 

[policywank]

Yes....and more fortitude than ever before.


Which is why the effort for new leadership is important and needs to be called for loudly. Not just on one side.

Israel has the mechanisms to replace their leadership as they see fit and may very well do so in their next election. The Palestinians have no such mechanism. And the only party (Iran) who might be able to compel a change has no interest in doing so. Until that changes Israel is dealing with a terrorist group. It sucks that this terrorist group hides behind innocent civilians, but that is what Israel must deal with and keep their citizens safe in the process. Like I said before - it sucks but if the enemy makes it a choice between my family and their family the decision is easy.

 

[ll74]

Israel has the mechanisms to replace their leadership as they see fit and may very well do so in their next election. The Palestinians have no such mechanism. And the only party (Iran) who might be able to compel a change has no interest in doing so. Until that changes Israel is dealing with a terrorist group. It sucks that this terrorist group hides behind innocent civilians, but that is what Israel must deal with and keep their citizens safe in the process. Like I said before - it sucks but if the enemy makes it a choice between my family and their family the decision is easy.

They actually do have mechanisms. Hamas has not allowed those to occur. With enough pressure, Palestinians could change that.

With proper leadership speaking out, things can change.

 

[ll74]

Then you are just inserting your own judgment as to how many casualties is too many and how the war should be conducted. Respectfully, what are your qualifications to conclude on either matter? Unless you served as a senior officer in the military and have intimate up to the minute knowledge from the IDF you are just a pundit like the rest of us.

As Ive already said - they aren't doing enough. They need to be publicly more targeted in their attacks and leadership needs to publicly express that more is being done.

Of course I'm a pundit. That doesn't make me wrong. At the moment, public sentiment is pretty harshly shifting and support for Israel is becoming less tenable.

 

[ll74]

Again, your 'shitload of dead civilians,' are Hamas-ISIS terrorists.

No way in hell that this is accurate.
Unless you agree with white_bB that there are no innocent Palestinians.
And then, as he is, you would be incorrect.

Israel does not commit genocide. HI do, has done and has said they will do again. Why isn't the world listening?

I don't believe they are committing genocide. I do, however, believe they need to make a better effort and not bomb indiscriminately. (Which is also the US position currently)

 

[silky52]

No way in hell that this is accurate.
Unless you agree with white_bB that there are no innocent Palestinians.
And then, as he is, you would be incorrect.


I don't believe they are committing genocide. I do, however, believe they need to make a better effort and not bomb indiscriminately. (Which is also the US position currently)

You really have no idea......what goes on in Gaza.

 

[Fuzzy1975]

I am quite familiar with the history.

Then you know the Palestinians were promised one thing, and given another.

And you are quite right that the seeds of this conflict were sown a long time ago, by people who probably shouldn't have been fucking around with it at all. But a big part of the history is also the observable fact that the Palestinians have repeatedly rejected a two state solution and even when more moderate factions engage in that discussion groups like Hamas throw a wrench into the works.

Terrorism stems from dissatisfaction or authoritarianism. Remove the cause the terrorism ends.

Meanwhile no matter how the past unfolded we cannot expect the Jews of Israel to simply slit their own throats and that of their children and throw themselves into the sea.

Where did I ever say to do that? I am pointing out this cycle needs to end. US and western policy needs to change, drastically.

The only viable solution in my mind is diplomacy.

Yep,but not by the west.

But I think that will continue to fail until the Palestinians can get their extremists under control. To be sure Israel has extremists as well who will actively resist a two state solution. But Israel is a democratic society that is equipped to hear those voices without letting them rule by terror. And Israel's allies are prepared to bring pressure to bear on them.

See my second answer,it's the same here.

As long as Hamas can derail any peace initiative by blowing someone up diplomacy will fail. They have to be eliminated then both sides need to be forced to the bargaining table by their citizens and their allies.

No Hamas doesn't need to be eliminated, any more than the Israels. What needs to happen is the supporters of both need to be removed, the heads of both tried for crimes against Humanity. Then and only then can they move towards a negotiated peace.

 

[ll74]

You really have no idea......what goes on in Gaza.

I've heard first-hand accounts regularly from independent sources.

I don't dismiss your knowledge of the situation. I'm not sure why you feel the need to dismiss mine.

 

[silky52]

Then you know the Palestinians were promised one thing, and given another.

Terrorism stems from dissatisfaction or authoritarianism. Remove the cause the terrorism ends.

Where did I ever say to do that? I am pointing out this cycle needs to end. US and western policy needs to change, drastically.

Yep,but not by the west.

See my second answer,it's the same here.

No Hamas doesn't need to be eliminated, any more than the Israels. What needs to happen is the supporters of both need to be removed, the heads of both tried for crimes against Humanity. Then and only then can they move towards a negotiated peace.

Total BS!! You really do not understand the situation. I recommend looking things up before you write!

 

[silky52]

I've heard first-hand accounts regularly from independent sources.

I don't dismiss your knowledge of the situation. I'm not sure why you feel the need to dismiss mine.

Because you are not listening! Just like the rest of the world, you aren't to blame for that, the HI media is, trouble is you are all listening to the bad guys!! They only one on this thread who has any idea of what's going on is policywank!

 

[ll74]

Because you are not listening! Just like the rest of the world, you aren't to blame for that, the HI media is, trouble is you are all listening to the bad guys!! They only one on this thread who has any idea of what's going on is policywank!

Utter bullshit here. I know what's going on...this entire thread was predicated on collecting information and specifically corroborating information from multiple, independent sources.

If you're pointing fingers at a single side, it's because you're the one not listening. My position on Israel is not abdicating Hamas from their responsibilities and certainly not conflating Palestinians into one size fits all.

 

[silky52]

Utter bullshit here. I know what's going on...this entire thread was predicated on collecting information and specifically corroborating information from multiple, independent sources.

If you're pointing fingers at a single side, it's because you're the one not listening. My position on Israel is not abdicating Hamas from their responsibilities and certainly not conflating Palestinians into one size fits all.

IMHO you DO NOT know what's gone on here, and you have not researched well enough. Your so-called 'sources' are ignorant of what's really happening!

 

[ll74]

IMHO you DO NOT know what's gone on here, and you have not researched well enough. Your so-called 'sources' are ignorant of what's really happening!

Yes, you've said that already. And you're incorrect. But you do you

 

[silky52]

Yes, you've said that already. And you're incorrect. But you do you

IMHO you still aren't listening!

 

[ll74]

IMHO you still aren't listening!

Yes, saying the same thing more times doesn't make me care any more.

Either people work towards peace or they don't. It doesn't matter who it is...there are always people who wish to seek peace that can be given a louder voice. Those who point fingers don't want actual solutions...they just want to blame someone for the problems.

No need to reply....you are as useful to this thread as white_bB and dribs and becky

 

[silky52]

Yes, saying the same thing more times doesn't make me care any more.

Either people work towards peace or they don't. It doesn't matter who it is...there are always people who wish to seek peace that can be given a louder voice. Those who point fingers don't want actual solutions...they just want to blame someone for the problems.

No need to reply....you are as useful to this thread as white_bB and dribs and becky

If I wanted to reply, I would. You are also as useful here as those who are ignorant! Perhaps you should join them!

 

[ll74]

If I wanted to reply, I would. You are also as useful here as those who are ignorant! Perhaps you should join them!

Yes, for the fourth time, you've said the same thing. Good job.

 

[Fuzzy1975]

Total BS!! You really do not understand the situation. I recommend looking things up before you write!

You have your opinion,and I have mine. Nothing I wrote is BS, it is an opinion. Look at the history, it doesn't lie.

If both sides don't pay a price, then one side will hate the other side that didn't pay a price. If both do pay a price, both sides members of the public are stuck who to hate? Plus if the penalties come from a third party, then you hate the third party, not the other side.

You are a shinning example of the hate. I am not saying it isn't deserved, but for you, nothing short of destroying Hamas, Hezbollah etc is going to satisfy you. The other side feels the exact same way.

Explain to me then, how you think permanent peace will be achieved. For an example of my opinion, look to Hitler and Stalin, and how Poland views the two.

 

[Shaglus_Ziegler]

Wow. Lots of armchair generals as people are slaughtered. Unbelievable.

 

[RobDownSouth]

Today I learned of something Israel Genocide Force uses called the "Hannibal Directive"
It's not publicly admitted.
Simply put, the directive permits the destruction of anything deemed to be retreating from Israel towards Gaza, without regard to hostages. "Kill anything that moves".
This was first mentioned back in October when Israeli attack helicopters "mistakenly" took out Israeli rave attendees who sought shelter in the general direction of Gaza when panic prompted a mass evacuation.
There is a link to this here, it purports to be an English translation of a Hebrew language newspaper, and I don't speak Hebrew, so take it with a grain of salt.

A variation of "Kill 'em all and let G-d sort 'em out" that Americans used in the Nam.

 

[silky52]

You have your opinion,and I have mine. Nothing I wrote is BS, it is an opinion. Look at the history, it doesn't lie.

If both sides don't pay a price, then one side will hate the other side that didn't pay a price. If both do pay a price, both sides members of the public are stuck who to hate? Plus if the penalties come from a third party, then you hate the third party, not the other side.

You are a shinning example of the hate. I am not saying it isn't deserved, but for you, nothing short of destroying Hamas, Hezbollah etc is going to satisfy you. The other side feels the exact same way.

Explain to me then, how you think permanent peace will be achieved. For an example of my opinion, look to Hitler and Stalin, and how Poland views the two.

Poland is your example? Seriously, some of the most anti-semitic people on earth!

All I am saying is that anti-semitism has reared its ugly head again, it was only dormant, and that is what this is all about. It's about killing Jews!! Full stop. I know that's perfectly acceptable for most people, but I don't have to like it or condone it. Many people are anti-semitic whether they realise it or not. Anti-semitism is alive and well, and really is abounding in the US. Plus in Europe, and IMHO it was never dead. So, okay guys let's go ahead and kill all the Jews.

Many solutions have been offered to the Arabs, but as stated above that is not their agenda. They simply want to kill all Israelis, as demonstrated on October 7th, or anyone associated with the Jews, and Israelis. Point for your information,which I'm sure you all know, since you all seem to know so much here, is that over 40 foreign workers, non-Jews were working on our farms and kibbutzim on our southern border on October 7th. They were either murdered or taken hostage. So yes we are forced to try and obliterate Hamas-ISIS.

There are so many examples of what HI is doing in Israel on the West Bank, through the Palestinian Authority, and I know you guys don't believe it. So, I won't bother to list them here, but I know nothing, only you guys know everything.

I invite you all to get on a plane and come and see!