Thoughts on Mary Sue characters.

[EmilyMiller]

That's a Mary Sue. (And why does no-one complain about backwater farmboy Luke Skywalker outpiloting the Rebel pilots and blowing up the Death Star?)

Or about Finn being able to kinda wield a light saber… and hold off Kylo first least a while. But a girl picks it up? The horror!

Em

 

[AchtungNight]

Or about Finn being able to kinda wield a light saber… and hold off Kylo first least a while. But a girl picks it up? The horror!

Em

I think Leia would make a badass lightsaber wielder. Haven’t seen Last Jedi but I heard she does some crazy Jedi things in that. I know I’m a fan of Mara Jade. Rey also, but I haven’t bothered to see episodes right or nine yet. Hmm, I do have Disney plus…

 

[alohadave]

That is just woke activism at its worst. Woke movement is definitely a positive thing but it is heavily misused in today's society. Extreme activists, who are the loudest by default, are obsessed with rewriting all of the culture to fit into their own worldview. This is just one example and there are so many more. What they do not see is that this extreme approach is just giving bad rep to the movement, and THAT is definitely not a good thing. It just fuels the rise of the opposite, equally radical movement. Stupidity will kill us all one day.

I don't see how the article is activism at all.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

I don't see how the article is activism at all.

I didn't mean that specific article, but that kind of extreme approach where you are trying to rewrite the culture to fit a certain worldview. I barely even skimmed through the article, to be honest.

 

[AchtungNight]

I didn't mean that specific article, but that kind of extreme approach where you are trying to rewrite the culture to fit a certain worldview. I barely even skimmed through the article, to be honest.

We fanfic writers- the good ones among us- never try to rewrite canon. We just do alternative theories.

 

[TheRedChamber]

Then, of course, there’s Sam, his fearless, devoted companion who stays by his side through everything, but who also never resists the opportunity to show his affection and care for Frodo in the smallest, most intimate ways.

For some reason, this sentence from the article couldn't help but make me think of this:

 

[Kelliezgirl]

Or about Finn being able to kinda wield a light saber… and hold off Kylo first least a while. But a girl picks it up? The horror!

Em

Actually, that was pretty cringe too... but Finn falls flat on his face too at other times. Rey never does.

My real beef with her is that she speaks Wookie with zero explanation given.

 

[EmilyMiller]

Actually, that was pretty cringe too... but Finn falls flat on his face too at other times. Rey never does.

My real beef with her is that she speaks Wookie with zero explanation given.

She seems to speak a few languages. I view it that Jakku is part of the Firefly system. She probably can curse in Cantonese and Mandarin too.

Em

 

[EmilyMiller]

Actually, that was pretty cringe too... but Finn falls flat on his face too at other times. Rey never does.

My real beef with her is that she speaks Wookie with zero explanation given.

I wonder what noises Wookiees make when they cum.

Em

 

[AchtungNight]

I wonder what noises Wookiees make when they cum.

Em

Probably depends on the Wookie.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

She seems to speak a few languages. I view it that Jakku is part of the Firefly system. She probably can curse in Cantonese and Mandarin too.

Em

But no one else understands Wookie, it's not like it's a common language or there are a lot of Wookies about.

ETA Han and C3PO do obviously, but Han had to learn and 3PO is a translator droid...

 

[AlinaX]

That's a weird beef. Better to ask why Wookie is such a well known language that Rey understands it. Clearly it's not the only language she has picked up.

The setup in TFA is very suggestive of Finn having Jedi potential. That this goes nowhere in the sequels is a crime of studio interference and a betrayal of character.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

That's a weird beef. Better to ask why Wookie is such a well known language that Rey understands it. Clearly it's not the only language she has picked up.

The setup in TFA is very suggestive of Finn having Jedi potential. That this goes nowhere in the sequels is a crime of studio interference and a betrayal of character.

But it ISN'T a well known language. Nothing else in canon suggests it is. In fact Chewbacca is the only one who doesn't speak English.

 

[AlinaX]

The mere fact that he doesn't have to speak Basic or whatever is very suggestive that there are people who will understand him.

 

[AchtungNight]

But it ISN'T a well known language. Nothing else in canon suggests it is. In fact Chewbacca is the only one who doesn't speak English.

His vocal cords may not be capable of it. I haven’t heard other Wookiees speak it in the films either.

 

[TheRedChamber]

The mere fact that he doesn't have to speak Basic or whatever is very suggestive that there are people who will understand him.

You know, people complain about us constantly discussing Star Wars, but I think when we're breaking important new ground such as this then the thread justifies itself.

FWIW Rey has lived on Jakku almost all her life, there don't appear to be many Wookies on Jakku from what we see, and she hardly has the funds to take an evening class.

More damning is the scene where the former wife of Han Solo, Han Solo's co-pilot of decades and some random girl who showed up yesterday meet right after Han Solo's death and the wife embraces the rando for her loss.

(But, as per the other thread, male Wookies don't know how to cry...)

 

[EmilyMiller]

Bottom line. The movies are riddled with inconsistencies and plot holes. All nine of them. Characters do weird shit, others demonstrate unearned skills. Plots are frankly barking mad. All the fucking time.

It is my observation (backed up by this thread) that there is only one character for whom anyone gives a shit about the above. It seems at least a minor coincidence that this is the first female force wielder in a leading role (and please don’t go on about Leia being retconned as a force wielder).

People apply the standards you do to Rey to all of your beloved characters.

Just sayin’

Em

 

[TheRedChamber]

Bottom line. The movies are riddled with inconsistencies and plot holes. All nine of them. Characters do weird shit, others demonstrate unearned skills. Plots are frankly barking mad. All the fucking time.

It is my observation (backed up by this thread) that there is only one character for whom anyone gives a shit about the above. It seems at least a minor coincidence that this is the first female force wielder in a leading role (and please don’t go on about Leia being retconned as a force wielder).

People apply the standards you do to Rey to all of your beloved characters.

Just sayin’

Em

Emily,

Star Wars fans hated Anakin Skywalker (preteen and teenager)
Star Wars fans hated Jar-Jar Binks
Star Wars fans found Padme incredibly bland.
Star Wars fans hated Ewoks (not me, I find them adorable)
Star Wars fans hated Finn (once it was clear the movies were going to treat him like a joke)

Rey is not special in being a hated Star Wars character.

Bottom Line - whatever the plotholes in say Empire Strikes Back* it's worth studying as writers because the script is tight, intelligent+ and dramatically it's like lightning in a bottle.
On the other hand the Sequel trilogy is worth studying as writers because of just how much of the fundamentals it manages to get horrifically wrong.

(*the main one being that the time that Luke trains and the time that Han and Leia are stuck in space with no hyperdrive is vaguely defined and doesn't quite line up)
(+yeah, the clunkiness of the dialogue is part of its genius.)

 

[AchtungNight]

Favorite Robot Chicken comedy skit-

Vader- Luke, I am your father!

Luke- That’s not true! That’s impossible!

Vader- And Princess Leia! She is your sister!

Luke- That’s… improbable.

Vader- And the Empire will be defeated by Ewoks!

Luke- That’s… a bit unlikely.

[ cut to the two enemies drinking together ]

Vader- And the Force? It’s just mitochondria in your blood.

Luke- Now you have to be lying.

Vader- And as a child, I built C-3PO.

Luke- [drops lightsaber] If you can’t take this seriously, I’m out.

****

The sequel trilogy was not yet released when they put out this skit.

 

[TheRedChamber]

Kumquat's Law strikes again. Yawn.

Seriously, am I missing anything from not seeing the sequel trilogy? I haven't seen films 2 and 3 either, actually. I've had to sit through some of the Mandalorian, but apparently laughing at the plodding pomposity is inappropriate.

On Mary Sue and Gary Stu, they're often self-inserts of the author in bad fanfic. Or just bad fanfic... A more common problem in film and TV is the character who is quite well-drawn and balanced - who then decides to do something totally stupid just so the plot can progress. I don't know if that's got a name? "I'll just explore this creepy basement alone", maybe?

The trope you are looking for is the Idiot Ball. And because they knew you were coming they have a Star Wars quote as the opening.

I think watching the sequel trilogy is a bit like those optical illusions - some people see dolphins and some people see the naked ladies. It's bizarre the extent to which the Last Jedi especially divides opinion - either its 'a breath of fresh air subverting tired old tropes and making them relevant for everyone' or else it 'just doesn't understand why people liked Star Wars in the first place'

 

[RetroFan]

Writing a Mary Sue character whether it be in a movie for a major IP brand worth billions like Star Wars or the MCU, for a TV show, in a mainstream novel or even in a story posted on the free erotic fiction site Literotica means you have failed as an writer.

It's like the equally bad writing sin of 'Character Shilling', where other characters endlessly praise another character, but these abilities and qualities aren't really made apparent to the viewer/reader. This can even be done in a musical number, such was the case in the failed 1967 musical 'Doctor Dolittle'. Early in the film major character Matthew (played by Anthony Newley) sings a song to his young nephew and passers by about the yet to be seen titular Doctor Dolittle called 'My Friend The Doctor', which make Doctor Dolittle sound like a wonderful if somewhat eccentric man. So what happens when we get to meet Doctor Dolittle, played by Rex Harrison, in a few scenes' time? The man is a grumpy old prick; aloof, condescending and unfriendly to humans and animals alike.

 

[AchtungNight]

Writing a Mary Sue character whether it be in a movie for a major IP brand worth billions like Star Wars or the MCU, for a TV show, in a mainstream novel or even in a story posted on the free erotic fiction site Literotica means you have failed as an writer.

It's like the equally bad writing sin of 'Character Shilling', where other characters endlessly praise another character, but these abilities and qualities aren't really made apparent to the viewer/reader. This can even be done in a musical number, such was the case in the failed 1967 musical 'Doctor Dolittle'. Early in the film major character Matthew (played by Anthony Newley) sings a song to his young nephew and passers by about the yet to be seen titular Doctor Dolittle called 'My Friend The Doctor', which make Doctor Dolittle sound like a wonderful if somewhat eccentric man. So what happens when we get to meet Doctor Dolittle, played by Rex Harrison, in a few scenes' time? The man is a grumpy old prick; aloof, condescending and unfriendly to humans and animals alike.

I don’t consider myself as having committed either of these sins. But I also know such things can be a matter of opinion.

There are people who consider Harry Potter and Katniss Everdeen Mary Sues. Having read their books, I disagree. I do agree about Bella Swan and a few Biblical characters.

 

[SimonDoom]

I don’t consider myself as having committed either of these sins. But I also know such things can be a matter of opinion.

There are people who consider Harry Potter and Katniss Everdeen Mary Sues. Having read their books, I disagree. I do agree about Bella Swan and a few Biblical characters.

I don't think of either of them as Mary Sues. They have special gifts, but that alone doesn't make one a Mary Sue. They both go through many trials, feel uncertainty. I felt Katniss's ability with a bow was well developed through her background.

The best example of a Mary Sue I can think of in recent entertainment is Galadriel from The Rings Of Power. She is a classic Mary Sue in every way, much more so than Rey in Star Wars. Right from the get go she's better at everything than everybody, and she's kind of insufferable about it. She's presented as a super hero, which elves aren't supposed to be. Her character doesn't fit with the Galadriel from the books. For Pete's sake, near the beginning she jumps into the ocean to swim all the way back to Middle-earth. Ridiculous.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Sam Worthington's character Jake from Avatar.

 

[StillStunned]

The best example of a Mary Sue I can think of in recent entertainment is Galadriel from The Rings Of Power. She is a classic Mary Sue in every way, much more so than Rey in Star Wars. Right from the get go she's better at everything than everybody, and she's kind of insufferable about it. She's presented as a super hero, which elves aren't supposed to be. Her character doesn't fit with the Galadriel from the books. For Pete's sake, near the beginning she jumps into the ocean to swim all the way back to Middle-earth. Ridiculous.

I won't argue that her portrayal in the series wasn't somewhat flat, but you do realise that Galadriel is one of the oldest and most powerful Elves ever? Her family are at the power level of forging the Silmarils and fighting off an army of Balrogs single-handedly. She's cousins with Luthien, who is even able to overcome Morgoth with her magic. Even in the books and the movies, it's her magic that keeps Lothlorien safe from Sauron's influence. If anything, she's underpowered in the show.

I think her journey through Rings of Power will be one of realising her great flaw: pride. There's a hint of it already, that her meddling will bring problems for Numenor. So the Galadriel from the books, and the movies, is a Galadriel who's learned some hard lessons and become wiser and more level-headed.