Thoughts on Mary Sue characters.

[AchtungNight]

Interested in getting the Literotica take on this.

Do you have a character everyone in your stories goes apeshit for? They want the character as a friend enthusiastically and they can seemingly do no wrong. Perhaps a few characters will disrespect them, but they always regret it. Eventually if not instantly. Characters of the appropriate perversity swoon.

Do you like or dislike such characters? Why?

Characters of this nature are known as Mary Sues. They’re very common in fantasy, fanfic, and anime stories. I naturally have a few of them. Any celebrity I’ve used regularly and a few of my original characters too. I like them as long as they stay unpredictable a bit. You don’t expect a porn Mary Sue to not have certain kinks for example. But you have to respect them when they insist on enforcing their sexuality. This comes in handy quite a lot.

 

[ShelbyDawn57]

Is this different that a Mary Jane, a female character that is automatically good at everything? Think Daisy Ridley as Rey in Star Wars.

 

[StillStunned]

Is this different that a Mary Jane, a female character that is automatically good at everything? Think Daisy Ridley as Rey in Star Wars.

That's a Mary Sue. (And why does no-one complain about backwater farmboy Luke Skywalker outpiloting the Rebel pilots and blowing up the Death Star?)

In reply to the OP: I hate Mary Sues (when they are Mary Sues and not just a target for fanboy ire), and I can't imagine writing one. For a start, they'd be incredibly boring to write about. I'm well beyond the age of wanting to thrust any self-insert power trip fantasies on any readers. Secondly, where's the story? Unless you're writing the simplest of strokers - "I'm irresistible, and here's some hot sex I had" - a Mary Sue leaves little room for tension or development.

I might write a seemingly flawless character if the POV character's understanding requires it: blind love, or blind jealousy, for instance. But that flawless character would only be an illusion, not reality, and the story would definitely need to show that it's not real - or else use it as a humourous device, making the character likeable or relatable despite their perfections.

 

[TheRedChamber]

That's a Mary Sue. (And why does no-one complain about backwater farmboy Luke Skywalker outpiloting the Rebel pilots and blowing up the Death Star?)

I'll avoid a long analysis and say simply that Luke Skywalker doesn't 'outpilot' anyone - he's as dead as the rest of the pilots if Han Solo doesn't come and rescue him. And in the battle up to that point, he both saves and is saved by the other X-Wings. And his success comes down to listening to other people's advice at key moments.

The best way to make the Mary Sue argument with Ray is to watch how long it takes both Han and Luke to shoot down four Tie-Fighters in the Millenium Falcon in a New Hope

Now guess how long it takes Ray to shoot down three Tie-Fighters in the Millenium Falcon in the Last Jedi. Make sure to write down your predictions on a piece of paper before watching.

 

[TheRedChamber]

I've written Mary Sues before although they work best as a foil for the main character. Actually they're probably less Mary Sues so much as they are Jolenes - perfect women who are going to steal the MC's man if she doesn't step up her game.

 

[AlinaX]

I love Rey, leave her alone. In the scene you're talking about, she's got all the advantages of being on home ground, like in a million stories of a lone hero taking out an enemy group.

ETA: Mixed up scenes, sorry; but the one you have there is more an issue with the film than the character.

 

[Stimtheone]

The value of a story is drama, drama exists from tension, tension exists from uncertainty. When you are unsure if a character you have invested in will succeed, you keep reading, willing to see how they will pass their challenges, but relatively aware of their inadequacies that may not lead them to success. But if you have someone that just cruises through everything, there is no drama when they just win every time.

I can both understand why someone would make a mary sue... they don't want that person to lose.... but I can understand how damaging it is to a story to have something that cannot lose. The story would be boring. You know how it ends. This is why I can't trust making a story where the god character in my series is once again the focus. They're a GOD... they can do anything. Personal challenges might as well not exist unless they allow them, and even then you know they do. The drama in these stories comes more from them watching and assisting someone else who is not AS strong.

 

[AchtungNight]

It’s also good to see the character up against a challenge they acknowledge as such. Yes, they’re going to win, but they still look apprehensive and have issues doing so. Wesley must climb the Cliffs of Insanity, then defeat masters of swordplay and wrestling, then outwit a fearsome intellectual, then work through a Fire Swamp with serious environmental issues, all the while dealing with his true love’s bitterness and hoping the epic huntsman following her doesn’t catch up or he can intimidate the fool into backing down when he does… he succeeds but the audience has doubts he will succeed. So it works. I love Princess Bride, by the way.

Or from my ficverse… Doug Ramsay is supposed to flirt with Keira Knightley, out plan and fight a London crime boss with over two hundred goons, befriend a commando squad, and establish his nightclub. This task looks intimidating and he handles it. But he is suitably worried about his task and doesn’t succeed alone.

Or Lisa Coleman is introduced beating up an assault rapist larger than her but it’s taking a while to do it and she’s flabbergasted by this. She doesn’t know he’s on PCP and requires help from several other people to win. Then she keeps telling the guy she wants to date crazy truths about herself still hoping she can seduce him. She’s only charming because he’s horny too. Ultimately the guy has to be aggressive enough to cut through her barriers but in a way where she welcomes his attention. Not easy with a sex addict trying to make sure all her sex is as good as possible while living in an erotic sex positive universe.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

(And why does no-one complain about backwater farmboy Luke Skywalker outpiloting the Rebel pilots and blowing up the Death Star?)

Cause we are all backwards males here. We hate Rey cause she is a woman.

 

[AlinaX]

The amount of energy that has gone into hating Rey is frightening. There are plenty of things to criticise about the plots, but why focus so much anger on one character?

 

[AwkwardlySet]

I don't hate Rey in any specific way. I hate the whole trilogy, and as far as I am concerned, episodes 7-9 do not exist. They are a huge pile of garbage, in my opinion. One of the posters just used Rey as an example of a Mary Sue, which she is, by the way. But she is far from being the biggest problem of these episodes that do not exist

 

[AlinaX]

I didn't mean hate from you specifically. I meant all those hundreds of supposed fans going out of their way to demonise her in videos and articles.

(Ep. 7 was fun, if not terribly original. Ep. 8 was fun for its willingness to be different; although the lack of coherent vision acorss Eps 7 and 8 is confusing, and the plot of Ep. 8 is just horribly flawed in so many critical ways. Ep. 9 was such an utter betrayal of everything good about Eps 7 and 8 that it has soured my enjoyment of anything Star Wars.)

 

[TheRedChamber]

The amount of energy that has gone into hating Rey is frightening. There are plenty of things to criticise about the plots, but why focus so much anger on one character?

Oh, don't worry, we hate all the characters...

Actually, a perfectly good Star Wars movie could have been made with Daisy Ridley, John Botega, and Oscar Isaacs - I don't fundamentally dislike the actors, basic designs, or character sketches - just practically nothing good came out of any of the three movie scripts (IMHO)

The things is people think Star Wars fans are picky - we're really not - all we expect is a sequel of equivalent quality to one of the greatest popcorn movies ever made. If Disney wasn't planning making another of the greatest movies ever made why did they spend 4 billion dollars on the franchise? They already owned the rights to 'The Last Starfighter' after all - they could have slapped that name on their third rate dross. It's like buying a two-star Michelin restaurant(*) and then wondering why people keep sending your sub-McDonald's hamburgers back.

(*admittedly George Lucas had probably already lost a star or two with the prequels)

In summary, any media franchise which is made significantly after the original and which doesn't feature the original creative team (actors don't count) should be treated as a completely new property. It might be good, but there's no reason to think it will be any better than a completely new property or one based on an older property that formerly wasn't that great (see also how Battlestar Galactic is now better than Star Wars)

 

[StillStunned]

Ep. 9 was such an utter betrayal of everything good about Eps 7 and 8 that it has soured my enjoyment of anything Star Wars.)

Some of the live-action telly is pretty good. The Mandalorian has great episodes (and a few that are so-so), Boba Fett was excellent when it decided to be more Mandalorian (that Dyson ring was amazing to see), Obi-Wan was overall pretty good, and Ahsoka has been very watchable (at least once Sabine stopped being a spoiled, self-indulgent millennial). Andor is probably the best television series I've seen in years, even though it's a departure from more traditional SW products, or perhaps because of it.

 

[onehitwanda]

I think Rogue One is the only good modern Star Wars movie. Star Wars episode 7 is okay but doesn't capture the grittiness of Empire Strikes Back / Return of the Jedi.

This scene is probably one of the best in the original franchise:

There's no lunatic choreography, no whizz-bang post-processing, it's just Good versus Evil backed by a frankly perfect choice of music.

 

[ShelbyDawn57]

I'll avoid a long analysis and say simply that Luke Skywalker doesn't 'outpilot' anyone - he's as dead as the rest of the pilots if Han Solo doesn't come and rescue him. And in the battle up to that point, he both saves and is saved by the other X-Wings. And his success comes down to listening to other people's advice at key moments.

The best way to make the Mary Sue argument with Ray is to watch how long it takes both Han and Luke to shoot down four Tie-Fighters in the Millenium Falcon in a New Hope

Now guess how long it takes Ray to shoot down three Tie-Fighters in the Millenium Falcon in the Last Jedi. Make sure to write down your predictions on a piece of paper before watching.

That's a Mary Sue. (And why does no-one complain about backwater farmboy Luke Skywalker outpiloting the Rebel pilots and blowing up the Death Star?)

In reply to the OP: I hate Mary Sues (when they are Mary Sues and not just a target for fanboy ire), and I can't imagine writing one. For a start, they'd be incredibly boring to write about. I'm well beyond the age of wanting to thrust any self-insert power trip fantasies on any readers. Secondly, where's the story? Unless you're writing the simplest of strokers - "I'm irresistible, and here's some hot sex I had" - a Mary Sue leaves little room for tension or development.

I might write a seemingly flawless character if the POV character's understanding requires it: blind love, or blind jealousy, for instance. But that flawless character would only be an illusion, not reality, and the story would definitely need to show that it's not real - or else use it as a humourous device, making the character likeable or relatable despite their perfections.

Thanks for the clarification. A simple yes would have sufficed.

 

[Emilymcplugger]

That's a Mary Sue. (And why does no-one complain about backwater farmboy Luke Skywalker outpiloting the Rebel pilots and blowing up the Death Star?)

In reply to the OP: I hate Mary Sues (when they are Mary Sues and not just a target for fanboy ire), and I can't imagine writing one. For a start, they'd be incredibly boring to write about. I'm well beyond the age of wanting to thrust any self-insert power trip fantasies on any readers. Secondly, where's the story? Unless you're writing the simplest of strokers - "I'm irresistible, and here's some hot sex I had" - a Mary Sue leaves little room for tension or development.

I might write a seemingly flawless character if the POV character's understanding requires it: blind love, or blind jealousy, for instance. But that flawless character would only be an illusion, not reality, and the story would definitely need to show that it's not real - or else use it as a humourous device, making the character likeable or relatable despite their perfections.

There’s this great analysis here all about just how Luke is not “the shit” in this video.

It is one of the best analysis I have seen about both the trench run AND film-making in general.

 

[SimonDoom]

The amount of energy that has gone into hating Rey is frightening. There are plenty of things to criticise about the plots, but why focus so much anger on one character?

It's not a matter of hating Rey; it's being angry at the writers of the movies for doing such a terrible job developing the character properly (and for botching everything else about the trilogy, which I thought was crap on a stick). I thought the concept of Rey was good, and I liked Daisy Ridley. I bought into the idea of basically re-booting Luke Skywalker as a woman. But Luke took three movies of adversity and training to defeat Darth Vader, and Rey defeats Kylo Ren by the end of the first movie. It just wasn't handled right.

 

[AlinaX]

Kylo Ren, for all his Jedi power, was a whiny adolscent bitch, never the equal of Vader, and at the point of the fight was severly injured and still processing mentally the killing of his father.

Rey was a skilled and determined fighter, despite her lack of formal training, and had probably been using her Jedi powers in instinctive ways for years without being consciously aware of them, the same way Anakin and Luke had done.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

Rey defeats Kylo Ren by the end of the first movie.

With zero training, against a trained jedi/sith. Although, that fight and most other fights in the nonexistent episodes 7-9 looked like they were using clubs rather than lightsabers, so I guess it was possible, just as it was possible for Finn to do it later. I mean, how much skill does it take to wield a club

 

[StillStunned]

Thanks for the clarification. A simple yes would have sufficed.

And miss the opportunity to give unsolicited opinions?!

 

[AwkwardlySet]

Kylo Ren, for all his Jedi power, was a whiny adolscent bitch, never the equal of Vader, and at the point of the fight was severly injured and still processing mentally the killing of his father.

Rey was a skilled and determined fighter, despite her lack of formal training, and had probably been using her Jedi powers in instinctive ways for years without being consciously aware of them, the same way Anakin and Luke had done.

I must say that the lengths you go to to defend badly written characters is adorable
Both Luke and Anakin had extensive training in using the force and the lightsaber, especially Anakin who wasn't speed-trained like Luke. To be completely honest here, from the perspective of episodes 1-3, it doesn't seem plausible that Luke could defeat Vader; he simply didn't have enough training to go against someone as powerful as Vader. But one can hardly scold Lucas for not thinking decades in advance. In this particular sense, Rey is a completely ridiculous character who can use force without ever training to use it, and fight and defeat opponents of comparable force-power who were trained in lightsaber use, extensively. I believe that Chuck Norris himself was like: "This one would defeat even me"

 

[TheRedChamber]

Kylo Ren, for all his Jedi power, was a whiny adolscent bitch, never the equal of Vader, and at the point of the fight was severly injured and still processing mentally the killing of his father.

Rey was a skilled and determined fighter, despite her lack of formal training, and had probably been using her Jedi powers in instinctive ways for years without being consciously aware of them, the same way Anakin and Luke had done.

If we accept your premise, then that in itself is a pretty major story-telling eff-up. She didn't have to learn anything in order to 'win the movie'. She was already awesome. In other words a Mary Sue.

You really don't want to end part one with the equivelent of 'yeah, this villian is not very good' which is exactly what this movie does.

 

[SimonDoom]

Kylo Ren, for all his Jedi power, was a whiny adolscent bitch, never the equal of Vader, and at the point of the fight was severly injured and still processing mentally the killing of his father.

Rey was a skilled and determined fighter, despite her lack of formal training, and had probably been using her Jedi powers in instinctive ways for years without being consciously aware of them, the same way Anakin and Luke had done.

OK, but then that's bad writing. The villain is an inadequate villain, and the hero doesn't have enough obstacles put in front of her. You're invested in the character; I'm concerned about the writing. The trilogy was a terribly written mess, especially the last episode. Same thing with Snope, Snape, Snoke, what's his name, in Last Jedi. He just gets offed all of a sudden. No buildup.

 

[ShelbyDawn57]

And miss the opportunity to give unsolicited opinions?!

Well, there is that…. LOL. Further discussion of Rey and ’those movies’ should be done off line and with alcohol, though.