Thoughts on Mary Sue characters.

[TheRedChamber]

Same thing with Snope, Snape, Snoke, what's his name, in Last Jedi. He just gets offed all of a sudden. No buildup.

No, no, you see, people love it when George R R Martin does it.

 

[AlinaX]

Anakin as an untrained child was flying in the races using Jedi reflexes, and Luke's skill as a pilot suggests similar untrained instincts. Luke, of course, had the benefit of health and youth and rage when he did defeat Vader.

Dispatching Snoke so easily is absolutely a failure of the trilogy to have a coherent arc. Kylo Ren's arc from whiny apprentice to whiny guy-in-charge to repentant hero is a profound failure of the writing.

And fundamentally the trilogy failed because too many strings were being pulled from on high, and the characters were betrayed by their own writers.

 

[PeytonMirabelle]

Mary Sue (and Gary Sue or Marty Sue, if you prefer gendered titles) are inherently boring, because they aren't relatable. People are not faultless; they develop flaws, make mistakes, get arrogant and suffer for it. These characters generally don't. They're insufferable in their perfection. I don't like writing or reading about them.

Any fantasy fans may be familiar with Terry Goodkind's Sword of Truth series. Aside from the writer's egomania being a turnoff, I couldn't hang with it because the main character Richard Rahl is so utterly flawless, can solve any problem, has deus ex machina-like ability to learn every power, is so hot every woman wants him, etc. No flaws, no depth. Just ... blech.

I think they only way these characters can work is as wish-fulfillment icons who are incredibly charismatic or charming, such as James Bond or Lara Croft, and even they have their scenes. One of the Bond movies most powerful/memorable moments was the death of his wife and his accompanying moment of loss and vulnerability.

On Star Wars, I always find it interesting female protagonist Jyn Erso (from Rogue One) never got the hate Rey did. I wonder how much of it had to do with the quality of Rogue One generally just being better (better written, better characterized) than the sequel trilogy and Rey being dragged by association, and how much had to do with the Mary Sue discussions. Both are driven, strong characters but Jyn always came off to me as more flawed and vulnerable, and thus a little more relatable. Your mileage may vary.

 

[SimonDoom]

Anakin as an untrained child was flying in the races using Jedi reflexes,

Agreed. I disliked Anakin's character far more than I disliked Rey's character, for all kinds of reasons. He should have been introduced as a troubled teenager, roughly Padme's age, rather than as a cute little kid. His character development made no sense to me.

 

[StillStunned]

Any fantasy fans may be familiar with Terry Goodkind's Sword of Truth series. Aside from the writer's egomania being a turnoff, I couldn't hang with it because the main character Richard Rahl is so utterly flawless, can solve any problem, has deus ex machina-like ability to learn every power, is so hot every woman wants him, etc. No flaws, no depth. Just ... blech.

I've actively tried to suppress the memories of that series (at least the ones I managed to read), and then every once in a while someone has to shine light into the darkness to reveal the toad that's lurking there. How did those books ever become so popular?

 

[samhasstories]

Do I have to argue about Star Wars to post to this thread? I'm scared.

I wasn't previously familiar with the concept of Mary Sues, or at least that term for it. It's interesting that it seems to be a female archetype, though. I've found it to be a common and annoying trope in fantasy novels, usually as relates to the main male character. Rothfuss's Kingkiller* series come to mind - at least the first one, which is the only one I attempted. It's couched as a personal story, essentially "let me spend 800 pages telling you what a fucking badass I am."

These often read to me as adolescent wish fulfillment - a usually awkward, outcast boy suddenly finds himself as a young man who can kick anyone's ass and take home any one-dimensional female character he wishes. It's tiresome and often loses me quickly, unless there's something else really amazing going on.

* I didn't get far into this, and can't really back up any arguments against it. It's just what came to mind, and that was one of the reasons I put it down. If you're a fan and you disagree, I yield, you win, I don't care.

 

[TheRedChamber]

Do I have to argue about Star Wars to post to this thread? I'm scared.

Absolutely, we have a rule that every thread on this board must eventually descend into an argument about the Star Wars Sequel Trilogy. I say rule, it's more of a law of nature. Pick a side, it doesn't matter which one, but then never give any ground at all. (It's okay to say Rise of Skywalker sucked, everyone agrees about that)

It'll do you no good talking about Rothfuss' Kingkiller series, no one's* read that. Everyone's seen Star Wars.

(*no-one = me)

 

[StillStunned]

I wasn't previously familiar with the concept of Mary Sues, or at least that term for it. It's interesting that it seems to be a female archetype, though. I've found it to be a common and annoying trope in fantasy novels, usually as relates to the main male character. Rothfuss's Kingkiller* series come to mind - at least the first one, which is the only one I attempted. It's couched as a personal story, essentially "let me spend 800 pages telling you what a fucking badass I am."

The term originated in Star Trek fanfic, from the 60s I believe, and is named for a story that someone wrote that parodied the concept. Apparently it was common enough even then for people to recognise it and be fed up with it. The protagonist in the parody is called Mary Sue. The archetype hasn't changed much since then.

Also, give The Name of the Wind another try. It's one of the best-written fantasy books of the past few decades, and as you go along you'll realise that you're dealing with a highly biased narrator, who makes plenty of mistakes. Also, feel free to ignore this advice and read what you want to instead. Have you checked out my stories, for example?

 

[Jackie.Hikaru]

These often read to me as adolescent wish fulfillment

This for me is what makes a Mary Sue a Mary Sue. This is the crux.

 

[samhasstories]

Also, give The Name of the Wind another try. It's one of the best-written fantasy books of the past few decades, and as you go along you'll realise that you're dealing with a highly biased narrator, who makes plenty of mistakes. Also, feel free to ignore this advice and read what you want to instead. Have you checked out my stories, for example?

I think I do have it lying around here somewhere still, one of those I've always planned to maybe revisit, mostly on the strength of similar recommendations. But then, your stuff is probably shorter, at least...

 

[StillStunned]

But then, your stuff is probably shorter, at least...

I hear that a lot.

 

[onehitwanda]

It'll do you no good talking about Rothfuss' Kingkiller series, no one's* read that. Everyone's seen Star Wars.

Denna or Fela or Auri?

 

[nice90sguy]

I've not come across the "Mary Sue" description, but, reading this thread, I get it.

What's the opposite of a "Mary Sue" called? I'm a lot more interested in her.

 

[StillStunned]

What's the opposite of a "Mary Sue" called? I'm a lot more interested in her.

Believable? Relatable? Interesting?

 

[nice90sguy]

Believable? Relatable? Interesting?

Let's name her now.
I'll call her "Veronica" (evil women have to start with a V)
She's as hot as Mary Sue, but everybody hates her. Specially other women.

 

[EmilyMiller]

I love Star Wars as much as anyone who wasn’t alive in 1977 can.

Looking at them now holistically, the sequels were unconvincing. But I prefer them to the prequels. The sequels were “my Star Wars.” Maybe like the prequels had been for a previous generation. I was very young when TPM came out and the later prequels didn’t really register with me at the time.

TFA was the best of the sequels by some way. The rest had many weaknesses. And sometimes didn’t make a lot of sense. Much as I like Rian Johnson, TLJ was awful in many respects. TROS wasn’t that much better.

But… it takes a certain world view to single out either Rey or Daisy for criticism. There have been female force wielders before, but imagine the impact on young girls when Rey lit up her saber and took on Kylo Ren; that’s precious. It made an impact on me, and I was older by then. Still gives me shivers. Rey was the best thing about the sequels. Her banter with Finn, which they dropped when they decided they had no clue what to do with Finn’s character, was one of the most enjoyable elements of the best movie of the three.

Thing is… and start the hate now. Luke wasn’t that great a hero. Han and Leia were more compelling characters. I know many Rey-haters will say it’s not misogyny and point to all sorts of facts to support their claim. But I’m not buying it. The problem with Rey for some people was that she didn’t have a Y chromosome.

I thought she was a great character in some only kinda OK movies.

Em

 

[onehitwanda]

Han and Leia were more compelling characters

This, so much. Luke spent half the first and second movies whining, and only really "grew" when he refused Vader and chose death instead of becoming like his father.

Leia grew up in politics, in a great house, seeing just how ugly and gritty the world was and learning to deal with it with strength and panache. She's already an adult, Luke's the whiny teen who still needs to grow up.

 

[EmilyMiller]

This, so much. Luke spent half the first and second movies whining, and only really "grew" when he refused Vader and chose death instead of becoming like his father.

Leia grew up in politics, in a great house, seeing just how ugly and gritty the world was and learning to deal with it with strength and panache. She's already an adult, Luke's the whiny teen who still needs to grow up.

Totally.

Em

 

[onehitwanda]

Totally.

Em

Trick question: What's better than Princess Leia in a slave girl costume?

Answer: When her stunt double wears one too.

https://external-preview.redd.it/COrnSJOhmRuBSy126BaUstCgVjtsHaMzbXpt7h54baY.jpg?width=640&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=c98f23a2c423af4473e0aab1f139508590403722

 

[EmilyMiller]

Trick question: What's better than Princess Leia in a slave girl costume?

Answer: When her stunt double wears one too.

https://external-preview.redd.it/COrnSJOhmRuBSy126BaUstCgVjtsHaMzbXpt7h54baY.jpg?width=640&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=c98f23a2c423af4473e0aab1f139508590403722

I thought Fisher held her own with Ford admirably, and she was what, 19 or 20 for ANH? She was a good actress.

Em

 

[EmilyMiller]

I thought she was a great character in some only kinda OK movies.

FWIW, I thought Finn was great in TFA as well. Then they rather lost their way with him.

I liked Poe as well. Oscar Isaac can act.

Em

 

[StillStunned]

Leia grew up in politics, in a great house, seeing just how ugly and gritty the world was and learning to deal with it with strength and panache. She's already an adult, Luke's the whiny teen who still needs to grow up.

Leia resisted torture and had the presence of mind to lie about the Rebel base. She watched her home planet being blown up before her eyes, and as soon as Luke, Han and Chewie blundered to her rescue she took charge and got them out. She helped pilot the Millennium Falcon during the escape, and made the deliberate decision to lead the Death Star to the actual Rebel base so the Rebels would have no choice but to try and destroy it, instead of running away and losing the opportunity.

Leia was the baddest ass in Star Wars.

 

[onehitwanda]

Leia resisted torture and had the presence of mind to lie about the Rebel base. She watched her home planet being blown up before her eyes, and as soon as Luke, Han and Chewie blundered to her rescue she took charge and got them out. She helped pilot the Millennium Falcon during the escape, and made the deliberate decision to lead the Death Star to the actual Rebel base so the Rebels would have no choice but to try and destroy it, instead of running away and losing the opportunity.

Leia was the baddest ass in Star Wars.

Nah. She's tied with Lando.

 

[StillStunned]

Nah. She's tied with Lando.

Lando from "Solo", perhaps.

 

[samhasstories]

Lando does insist on pronouncing Han different from everyone else. Haaaan. That's an act of defiance, right?