Privilege, then and now

[Dearelliot]

No question in my mind that people of color in America are not treated equally, yes that's true.

 

[MillieDynamite]

Of course, I would agree with this statement.

No question in my mind that people of color in America are not treated equally, yes that's true.

 

[Dearelliot]

My daughter and granddaughter have told me my definition of privileged isn't correct in todays world.

 

[BelleCanzuto]

So, I was hesitant to wade into this, but I keep thinking about a specific example of the kind of privilege from which I benefit, but honestly didn't think much about until the last five or six years.

I'm a white, educated, fairly articulate straight cis-gender woman. So, I've got it pretty good as far as being able to ignore a lot of the systemic bullshit that other folks deal with. I'm a military brat, so I have some exposure to other cultures; my dad was enlisted, and we definitely had some lean times, but nothing that really negatively impacted me. Like Chloe's family, the expectation was that my sister and I both go to college, even though our parents hadn't finished their degrees. We both have Master's degrees.
With that background set:

A former co-worker (about 15 years younger than me) mentioned that when she was in grad school she was arrested, and had to do community service. She had to agree to that in order for the DA to agree to a charge that wouldn't show up on a background check and prevent her from doing the job she wanted. I'm not sure what she was originally charged with, but she said the cop accused her of being a prostitute. Her crime? Sitting in a car, talking with a guy she'd just had a dinner date with, parked in a city park that unbeknownst to either of them, was closed to the public after sundown. It was a first date that had gone really well, on a pretty spring evening, and they wanted to talk in private, but not at either of their apartments. She was not, I am sure from knowing her, dressed or acting in any way that would gave credence to the assumption about their activity.

And here's why that story resonates with me so much. I did almost the exact same thing when I was in college. I'd been hanging out with friends and just didn't want to go home, so I wandered to a park and sat on a bench, watching traffic go by. I guy I'd never met wandered up a few minutes late, drunk or a little high and we started talking. Having one of those quasi deep conversations you have in your 20s when you're a little intoxicated. A cop rolled up in a cruiser, stopped in front of us, and asked what we were doing. We said we were just talking. He looked pointedly at me and asked, "is everything ok?" And when I said yes, he said that it was late (it was somewhere between 2am and dawn) and we should go home. Then he told us to be careful and drove off.

No interrogation, no assumptions, took both our words and went on his way. So, I didn't have to go to court, or do community service, or worry that my career was over before it started.
My former co-worker is black.

It took her telling that story to crystallize for me how much more bullshit black people, and gay people, and people who obviously practice a 'minority' religion, etc, have to put up with, just going about their lives. Hanging out in a park, and you can't even get a warning and told to leave. But I did.

So, those are my thoughts.

{edited to fix some typos}

 

[NoTalentHack]

My daughter and granddaughter have told me my definition of privileged isn't correct in todays world.

It's still correct, it's just expanded. You think of it as economic and social privilege, and that's an excellent place to start from; it's something that almost everyone kind of "gets," because most of us are neither ultra-wealthy nor belong to the upper crust. We know that those folks can either throw money or status at a bunch of problems and/or simply won't have to deal with problems int he first place because of those advantages. It's just a matter of expanding your thinking from there to include privilege that, in many cases, you didn't realize you had. Shit, I sure as hell didn't realize it for a long while.

 

[Dearelliot]

I always thought that being treated as one might expect to be treated and as the majority of people are treated wasn't a privilege. Kinda like being born with all my arms and legs and eye sight etc, I wouldn't think that was a privilege, I thought those that weren't born that way, they were handicapped. But no, my daughter tells me now that that's wrong, yes, they are handicapped, but I'm privileged. I wonder if the definition was the same back in the 40s when I was in school, and we just weren't taught that?

 

[NoTalentHack]

I wonder if the definition was the same back in the 40s when I was in school, and we just weren't taught that?

Sort of? The word meant that, but you (and other people) were discouraged from thinking about what that actually meant if you really delved into it. It probably didn’t happen in an intentional way, there was no teacher handbook that said “don’t teach them the screw meaning of privilege,” but instead that people tend to not really think about the words they’re taught beyond the context they learned them in.

The first time I know of where "privilege" was intentionally used in that way is an essay called White Privilege: Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack, but it had probably kicked around academia a bit before that. Academics are a bit like stand-up comics in that they're always trying out their material on each other before subjecting the rest of us to it.

 

[MrHereWriting]

Modern privilege, maybe even past privilege, probably future privilege too: Anyone who has it better than me while the people who don't don't matter because they aren't me.

Me, me, me!

 

[Dearelliot]

Modern privilege, maybe even past privilege, probably future privilege too: Anyone who has it better than me while the people who don't don't matter because they aren't me.

Me, me, me!

You really think we humans are apathetic about the welfare of others...but what about our thoughts and prayers, doesn't that count?

 

[ElectricBlue]

You really think we humans are apathetic about the welfare of others...but what about our thoughts and prayers, doesn't that count?

I find this expression utterly bizarre. You don't know the person, and if you do pray, what's the likelihood of even remembering a Joe Blogs on a smut forum? It always sounds like a platitude to me, whenever I see someone write that.

 

[MrHereWriting]

You really think we humans are apathetic about the welfare of others...but what about our thoughts and prayers, doesn't that count?

Oh, right, I did overlook the fact that the "thoughts and prayers" of others solves all problems.

I feel so silly.

 

[Dearelliot]

my attempt at irony, Of course I don't pray, I'm quoting the gun people responding to the deaths of children from gun violence.

 

[ElectricBlue]

my attempt at irony, Of course I don't pray, I'm quoting the gun people responding to the deaths of children from gun violence.

Ah, now I get it! Exactly that, platitudes.

 

[Dearelliot]

No ...you don't. I doubt you ever will.

 

[Bramblethorn]

To stretch the point, I'd say the same of a couple of my past relationships. Two super smart people from whom I learned so much - I consider that to have been a privilege too.

I didn't think much about privilege when I was younger. Now realize how much I had growing up. ... I think the best we can do is for all of us who have some privilege to use it to help those around us who have less.

I had a lot of advantages that back then I mostly took for granted. ... privilege is complicated. As an adult, I understand that I've benefited from it in many ways; there are people who've been working all their lives much harder than I've ever done, for much less reward. I have the vocabulary and the background that I can go to a doctor and be taken seriously, for the problems that doctors can help with (that's one that a LOT of people take for granted), I can talk to police and government agencies and not be instantly profiled as "one of those people", yada yada. I try to use that for good where I can.

In general in my life, I am in touch with having privilege. By the time I was born, my father was a senior military officer and I could see that we were privileged--but both of my parents had come from rich families that had been laid low (my mother from a divorce that sent her mother and children to live in an abandoned copper mine) and my father (from losing his father at the age of three to the 1918 Spanish flu epidemic which also devastated the family business). So, I was close enough to being aware that both parents had to work their way up again from poverty to that I understood the effect of privilege.

After that, I moved to the American South, where my white, male, and semi-affluent status was in stark contrast to that of many others. And reading Black Like Me, Soul on Ice, and The Autobiography of Malcolm X I began to see the underlying racist patterns that had been there all the time. (My sensitivity to women's issues came somewhat later, with the advent of neo-feminism in the 1970s.)

But if I had been raised in that Southern environment all my life, I would have accepted that privilege as the status quo and would probably have continued to be unconscious of my status.

So, I was hesitant to wade into this, but I keep thinking about a specific example of the kind of privilege from which I benefit, but honestly didn't think much about until the last five or six years.

Modern privilege, maybe even past privilege, probably future privilege too: Anyone who has it better than me while the people who don't don't matter because they aren't me.

Me, me, me!

Given how many people in this discussion were talking about our own privilege, and acknowledging the people who have it worse than we do, this doesn't seem like a very accurate characterisation.

 

[ElectricBlue]

No ...you don't. I doubt you ever will.

I think I understand irony. When it's clear it was that, which your post wasn't.

 

[Dearelliot]

Well it was an attempt at the humor of irony, and I'm a lifelong atheist, so prayers are out, but you sounds like a good Christian who knows what's right for yourself and everyone else. So I understand.

 

[MrHereWriting]

Given how many people in this discussion were talking about our own privilege, and acknowledging the people who have it worse than we do, this doesn't seem like a very accurate characterisation.

Discussion is easy, but I don't see anyone giving up their privilege to make sure everyone with less catches up to them before they start discussing how they're own privilege is less than others. There's a real world out there Bramblethorn.

Acknowledgement without action solves nothing.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Discussion is easy, but I don't see anyone giving up their privilege to make sure everyone with less catches up to them before they start discussing how they're own privilege is less than others.

Why would you expect people to answer a question that wasn't asked?

Comshaw asked what "privilege" means to people here, and how their ideas have changed since they were children. That's the question we've been responding to. If you want people to answer some other question, you probably ought to ask it first rather than just assuming the answer.

Because when you ASS U ME...

 

[MrHereWriting]

Why would you expect people to answer a question that wasn't asked?

Comshaw asked what "privilege" means to people here, and how their ideas have changed since they were children. That's the question we've been responding to. If you want people to answer some other question, you probably ought to ask it first rather than just assuming the answer.

Because when you ASS U ME...

I answered his question, you responded to my answer, I responded to you.

And you've never needed me to make yourself look like an ass.

 

[NoTalentHack]

Discussion is easy, but I don't see anyone giving up their privilege to make sure everyone with less catches up to them before they start discussing how they're own privilege is less than others.

I'm sorry, but that's a gigantic pile of shit.

If you didn't see white people from economically privileged classes out marching at BLM protests, getting teargassed and pepperballed, losing the use of limbs and eyes--sometimes even their lives--you were blind.

If you didn't see men helping women reach the doors of abortion clinics while radical anti-choicers tried to prevent them from entering, then getting doxxed and harassed for their troubles, you were blind.

If you didn't see famous actors and wealthy screenwriters, ones whose futures were assured, standing shoulder to shoulder with their fellows making minimum wage or less at the SAG-AFTRA strikes, choosing to forego million dollar paychecks, you were blind.

If you didn't see millionaires, even billionaires, calling for and funding efforts towards labor reform and strengthening social safety nets, you were blind.

If you didn't see any of those, you were willfully blind. And you were probably willfully blind because seeing that meant you could no longer say "well, I don't see anyone giving up their privilege to make sure others catch up." Well, now you can see it. So what are you going to do?

Acknowledgement without action solves nothing.

And not acknowledging means that other people won't see it. Without a critical mass, action means nothing. It's just the Green party offering up their latest splitter candidate in the US so they can smugly say, "Well, I refuse to choose the lesser of two evils. And if others won't join me? They need to educate themselves." It's far more worthlessly performative than Facebook moms and NASCAR dads talking about the privilege they never knew they had; yeah, maybe those folks won't put their money where there mouth is, but maybe they'll reach someone who will.

Look, when it comes to privilege, I might not have rolled up that metaphorical character sheet of 18s that I mentioned up above, but I sure as hell hit most of them: white, raised Christian, wealthy background, educated, able-bodied, tall, athletic, and on and on. I fairly swam in privilege.

On top of that, I grew up in Texas, and for a large part of it in rural Texas in the 80s. If it hadn't been for "do-nothing" liberals whose only power was in their speech, I'd probably be wearing a red MAGA hat alongside most of my relatives. But I got lucky enough to read things that made me think about what I had and others didn't.

Acknowledgment, public or semi-public, is action. It's not without risk. Yeah, maybe it's a trivial risk, like being the irritating, argumentative one at Thanksgiving, the one that won't let the drunk, racist uncle get away with spewing his bullshit unopposed. Maybe it means telling your shitty, misogynistic co-worker, "hey, man, that isn't cool," when he tells about how he got a girl drunk to get laid over the weekend and getting made an outcast for your trouble. Maybe it's visibly, intentionally standing up and walking out of your church when the pastor starts spewing anti-trans propaganda.

It could be a lot of those things and more. But what it's not is a smug attitude that says, "well, you're not REALLY doing anything by talking about it."

So we're talking about it. Some of us do more than talk; those who can't are doing what they can. But we're still spending, if nothing else, our time and energy to discuss the issues and figure out how we ARE privileged and how we CAN help.

And if you're not willing to do at least that much? Then fuck your smug "acknowledgement without action" arguments. They ain't worth shit.

 

[Bramblethorn]

I answered his question, you responded to my answer, I responded to you.

Ah, my mistake. I thought you were just misconstruing one thread, rather than entire decades of history worldwide. I stand corrected.

 

[djrip]

Discussion is easy, but I don't see anyone giving up their privilege to make sure everyone with less catches up to them before they start discussing how they're own privilege is less than others. There's a real world out there Bramblethorn.

Acknowledgement without action solves nothing.

This touches on something I've thought about before. The goal should not be for those with privilege to lose it. The goal should be for those without it to gain it. Of course if everyone had it it would no longer be privilege, but the idea is everyone should move up to equality, not down.
I think sometimes the term privilege obscures this, makes people defensive, like the libs are coming to take things away. No, I don't want to take away your house; I want everyone to live in a house, to simplify.

 

[MrHereWriting]

Ah, my mistake. I thought you were just misconstruing one thread, rather than entire decades of history worldwide. I stand corrected.

You were just being yourself, trying to create an argument without merit so you could feel alive while online.

 

[MrHereWriting]

I'm sorry, but that's a gigantic pile of shit.

If you didn't see white people from economically privileged classes out marching at BLM protests, getting teargassed and pepperballed, losing the use of limbs and eyes--sometimes even their lives--you were blind.

If you didn't see men helping women reach the doors of abortion clinics while radical anti-choicers tried to prevent them from entering, then getting doxxed and harassed for their troubles, you were blind.

If you didn't see famous actors and wealthy screenwriters, ones whose futures were assured, standing shoulder to shoulder with their fellows making minimum wage or less at the SAG-AFTRA strikes, choosing to forego million dollar paychecks, you were blind.

If you didn't see millionaires, even billionaires, calling for and funding efforts towards labor reform and strengthening social safety nets, you were blind.

If you didn't see any of those, you were willfully blind. And you were probably willfully blind because seeing that meant you could no longer say "well, I don't see anyone giving up their privilege to make sure others catch up." Well, now you can see it. So what are you going to do?


And not acknowledging means that other people won't see it. Without a critical mass, action means nothing. It's just the Green party offering up their latest splitter candidate in the US so they can smugly say, "Well, I refuse to choose the lesser of two evils. And if others won't join me? They need to educate themselves." It's far more worthlessly performative than Facebook moms and NASCAR dads talking about the privilege they never knew they had; yeah, maybe those folks won't put their money where there mouth is, but maybe they'll reach someone who will.

Look, when it comes to privilege, I might not have rolled up that metaphorical character sheet of 18s that I mentioned up above, but I sure as hell hit most of them: white, raised Christian, wealthy background, educated, able-bodied, tall, athletic, and on and on. I fairly swam in privilege.

On top of that, I grew up in Texas, and for a large part of it in rural Texas in the 80s. If it hadn't been for "do-nothing" liberals whose only power was in their speech, I'd probably be wearing a red MAGA hat alongside most of my relatives. But I got lucky enough to read things that made me think about what I had and others didn't.

Acknowledgment, public or semi-public, is action. It's not without risk. Yeah, maybe it's a trivial risk, like being the irritating, argumentative one at Thanksgiving, the one that won't let the drunk, racist uncle get away with spewing his bullshit unopposed. Maybe it means telling your shitty, misogynistic co-worker, "hey, man, that isn't cool," when he tells about how he got a girl drunk to get laid over the weekend and getting made an outcast for your trouble. Maybe it's visibly, intentionally standing up and walking out of your church when the pastor starts spewing anti-trans propaganda.

It could be a lot of those things and more. But what it's not is a smug attitude that says, "well, you're not REALLY doing anything by talking about it."

So we're talking about it. Some of us do more than talk; those who can't are doing what they can. But we're still spending, if nothing else, our time and energy to discuss the issues and figure out how we ARE privileged and how we CAN help.

And if you're not willing to do at least that much? Then fuck your smug "acknowledgement without action" arguments. They ain't worth shit.

Based off your first sentence, I'm not reading the rest of it, but keep believing whatever it is you believe.