Turn rape into love?

[sapphyrix]

yall making me feel like an awful person in this thread because a lot of my smut plots are basically just that...
noncon turning to dubcon turning to consensual turning to romance...
in fact i feel like some of my stuff that catches people's attention for being brutal, then gets too soft too quickly. o.0

 

[ericalauren]

"Turn rape into love"? Nope. Not ever.

 

[XerXesXu]

If ever there was an advertisement for censorship.....
You're it....
I promised myself I wasn't going to enter this disgusting thread,
Unfortunately I couldn't let ignorant semi life forms like you promote rape.
Anybody who promoted turning rape into love is a very sick person who has never lived through the horror of rape.
It's not fun, it's not some wonderful fluffy experience. It's brutal, humiliating, physically destructive, that doesn't even start to cover the mental trauma that the victim has to live with for the rest of their life.
Human beings with an ounce of empathy understand that.
Writing about it in an erotic way promotes it. Glorifies it, and endorses the behaviour.
I hate that you can even say such despicable things.
Ys, it should be a crime....

Cagivagurl

I believe you may have misunderstood this thread.

 

[AG31]

Given that rape is, IRL and outside of fantasy, an abhorrent thing, the trick I suppose is to make it credible without seeming to advocate it.

Back in the day, in the early times of romances by the likes of Kathleen Woodiwiss and Rosemary Rogers, this was the standard trope. Now norms have changed, but erotica has always often focussed on the forbidden. I find the answer to the OP's question, SURE!. @JohnSm123

 

[SimonDoom]

Unfortunately I couldn't let ignorant semi life forms like you promote rape.


Cagivagurl

I reported your comment. I believe it should be deleted because it violates the forum's policy against personal attacks.

I respect your right to have your personal feelings. But your personal feelings are no more important than anyone else's, and they are not a basis for attacking other forum members, or for trying to shame them for what they write, or for advocating the criminalization of their writings.

If you want to regulate what others write, you have to do better than argue that they are glorifying/endorsing/promoting rape because "This is how I feel." Make an argument. Cite evidence. If you can't do that, then you are essentially making the same kind of argument that the Taliban makes: "This offends my personal morals, so it should be banned." We don't do things that way in a society that values artistic freedom.

 

[Cagivagurl]

I reported your comment. I believe it should be deleted because it violates the forum's policy against personal attacks.

I respect your right to have your personal feelings. But your personal feelings are no more important than anyone else's, and they are not a basis for attacking other forum members, or for trying to shame them for what they write, or for advocating the criminalization of their writings.

If you want to regulate what others write, you have to do better than argue that they are glorifying/endorsing/promoting rape because "This is how I feel." Make an argument. Cite evidence. If you can't do that, then you are essentially making the same kind of argument that the Taliban makes: "This offends my personal morals, so it should be banned." We don't do things that way in a society that values artistic freedom.

Yeah, you do what you're comfortable with. Pretend to be promoting free speech.

Rape, is not something that can be tolerated in a modern society. Like all other crimes, it should be highlighted as a hate crime. It's not a cute little titillating piece of erotica. It is promoting the physical abuse of other human beings. IMO...

Rape, is a crime for a reason. It destroys peoples lives. Robs them of dignity. This whole thread, where commenters think it's possible to physically assault, rape and beat somebody into loving them. What a joke. IMO...
I hope and pray no member of your family ever has to live with that. Think about how you will feel, if that is the case.
You should go and spend some time in a rape crisis centre for a while. Talk to the survivors, the victims. Then you might understand...
No, IMO, you hide behind protecting free speech.

You do what you want. If you're able to look in a mirror. Good luck

Cagivagurl

 

[Cagivagurl]

I posted in this thread, and I've dealt with it. Multiple times. Throughout my life.

There's a line between reality and fiction and the approach people take in noncon/reluctance stories that can give a wide enough berth to make it clear that the intent is NOT rape but often overcoming personal hang ups around what is "proper" and "expected" from a woman in a sexual situation she's aroused by but thinks she shouldn't be in. It's still not consensual in the sense of a clear and confident "Yes, please fuck me," but it's also not internalized trauma handled in silence as your body betrays you in how it reacts to stimuli that it's designed to react to.

I concede that there are a lot of disgusting portrayals of the genre that amount to making a mockery of the actual crime, but you can't paint the entire genre with such a wide brush. It can be done skillfully where lines are blurred in the ways that make a difference in how that content is received and intended.

There are some stories I've enjoyed in the noncon category and some I've enjoyed the story for but still had negative reactions to the sex scene because a character was too much like someone I knew and/or my own experiences. I don't fault the author for that. I knew going in that it was a risk and it was a calculated risk that I took.

Do not pretend to speak for all survivors of this. Do not put your morals and expectations on all of us as if there's only one way to react and process that kind of trauma. You have your experience. I have mine. We come at it from different angles and there is nothing wrong with that, but to vilify people simply for indulging in a fictional setting that allows them to exorcise their demons and/or experiences (because yes, sometimes people who have had such experiences also write the fucking things as a way to process their trauma and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.) is, simply, oversimplifying a complicated issue and insulting to those who have found healing through creating such stories.

That being said, I agree that dismissing all of it as not harmful is also reductive and unhelpful, while also being potentially harmful.

This isn't an easy topic with easy answers, it's incredibly complicated and emotional and maybe we should all just step away and not let the issue further boil over because no one here is right or wrong. Everyone has bits of truth and right on their side in this argument. It's just the way it is.

Thanks for your thoughts.
I appreciate your views. I don't agree with them, but accept they are yours to hold and express.
I do have a problem with stories surrounding rape, and yes they affect me personally. I will not apologise for that.
Th problem as I see it, is simple. While stories regarding rape are written, and made to sound hot, and exciting. It promotes the idea, that no doesn'r mean no...
OK, she said no, but she didn't mean it. Look at what she's wearing, she wants it. I'm not raping her, she'll love it...
I'm sorry, that doesn't wash with me. That's my opinion.
When somebody says no.... It mans no.... While stories, fantasies circle around the edge, they still cross thaat line.
Most rapes, and I mean 90% of them involve physical vilence. Btutal violent harm. Broken bones, broken noses, split lips, torn vagina's. Then there is the mental trauma.
There may be a very small number of people who have written their stories regarding their rape. Again, I suggest, and I don't have figures to corroborate. I assume, more than 90% would be horrific reads.
We are not talking about consenting adults game playing here. We are talking rape... I suggest you read the opening gambit in this thread.
I hate this thread, I hated the concept of turning rape into love. I promise you, go to a rape crisis centre, talk to the victims, see the physical abuse. Then see how deeply the victims are traumatised. Suggest to them they might love their attacker.
Erotica, is supposed to be that. erotic, if you have to beat your partner into bloody submission so you can have sex.... Sorry, that's not erotic. IMO.
As I said at the start. You are entitled to your opinion. But, I will not sit idly by and see rape glorified, promoted.
It is a crime of hate, of violence. It is brutal and disgusting. IMO...
Sorry, as much as I respect your opinion. I do not agree with it. This is not a personal attack on you or anyone else. I simply do not agree.

Cagivagurl

 

[Winter_Fare]

Make an argument. Cite evidence. If you can't do that, then you are essentially making the same kind of argument that the Taliban makes: "This offends my personal morals, so it should be banned."

Simon asks for evidence and gets this in reply:

Most rapes, and I mean 90% of them involve physical vilence. Btutal violent harm. Broken bones, broken noses, split lips, torn vagina's. Then there is the mental trauma.

That isn't evidence, that's literally a number you plucked out of thin air plus hyperbole.

There may be a very small number of people who have written their stories regarding their rape. Again, I suggest, and I don't have figures to corroborate. I assume, more than 90% would be horrific readsRape, is a crime for a reason. It destroys peoples lives. Robs them of dignity. This whole thread, where commenters think it's possible to physically assault, rape and beat somebody unto loving them. What a joke. IMO...

You can't just put IMO after everything and get a free pass. You can't just spout the same non argument over and over. Well maybe you can, but earnest belief doesn't make you right. There is zero evidence that FICTIONAL STORIES about taboos such as rape, murder and incest increase ACTUAL incidence of those CRIMES.

No. The only harm here is the one you are repeatedly perpetuating on yourself. You are being triggered by reading this stuff at all, and let's not beat around the bush, you're being horrible to other authors about it. Repeatedly.

 

[AG31]

Yeah, you do what you're comfortable with. Pretend to be promoting free speech.

Rape, is not something that can be tolerated in a modern society. Like all other crimes, it should be highlighted as a gat crime. It's not a cute little titillating piece of erotica. It is promoting the physical abuse of other human beings. IMO...

Rape, is a crime for a reason. It destroys peoples lives. Robs them of dignity. This whole thread, where commenters think it's possible to physically assault, rape and beat somebody unto loving them. What a joke. IMO...
I hope and pray no member of your family ever has to live with that. Think about how you will feel, if that is the case.
You should go and spend some time in a rape crisis centre for a while. Talk to th survivors, the victims. Then you might understand...
No, IMO, you hide behind protecting free speech.

You do what you want. If you're able to look in a mirror. Good luck

Cagivagurl

Your point of view would eliminate at least half of erotica, I'm guessing.

@SimonDoom @Winter_Fare

 

[SimonDoom]

(I deleted my other post after feeling like I'd said too much about my personal life. But fuck it, what have I got to lose?)

I think both of your posts were thoughtful comments on this uncomfortable subject. I wanted to respond to this line in the post you evidently deleted:

That being said, I agree that dismissing all of it as not harmful is also reductive and unhelpful, while also being potentially harmful.

I don't think most of the "pro-speech" advocates in this thread, like me, are dismissing anything. I acknowledge the possibility that speech may have consequences and that in this particular context it's possible that some fiction relating to the subject of rape might conceivably influence someone in the real world in a harmful way.

What I'm saying is, let's see proof. The burden of proof rightfully should be placed on the person who seeks to shame, or advocates regulating, another's speech, particularly in cases where, as Cagivagurl does, the person actually wants to criminalize another person's stories. In a society that values artistic expression, that's a fairly extreme thing to advocate, and it can only be advocated persuasively with close reasoning and solid evidence. As they say, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. The mere assertion of feelings, over and over again, won't cut it, no matter what experiences they are based on.

This is what I've seen: none of the pro-regulators are willing to take up this burden. They fall back on personal feelings and personal experiences, and they are outraged that anyone could disagree with them. They respond, as Cagivagurl does, with uninformed and unsupported ad hominem attacks on fellow authors.

There is little evidence to believe that the wide circulation of artistic expression that encompasses the subject of violence, including sexual violence, actually increases the incidence of violence in society. That appears to be so whether we are dealing with photographs, films, videos, video games, or writings. Anti-porn advocates have been trying for decades to prove the harms of porn, and the evidence is still thin, at best. The evidentiary case against online written erotica is even weaker.

 

[AwkwardMD]

You can write the story to be plausible. I think I did in "Quarter to Midnight," which contains some of my favorite scenes. You might have to walk a tightrope between characters too unlikable for the readers to care about and too unbelievable for readers to care about.

if anyone is looking for examples, this one is really strong and well done. It doesn't get to a kind of fairy tale love, but I loved the way these broken characters fit together. Quarter to Midnight was fantastic.

 

[theWollstonecraftWoman]

I agree with you. That wasn't directed at you or anything anyone has said about free speech. It was about people saying, in general, there is absolutely never anything harmful about fictional rape. It's just as bad of a take as all fictional rape is harmful and can't have a purpose beyond instigating further rape. (Which is not at all true.)

Both bad takes but I only saw one represented here (and it wasn't the free speech side.) It rubs me the wrong way when people try to dictate how others cope with their experiences. Fuck that. Cope, survive, do whatever is needed to get through the day without causing any harm to people who are coping in a different way.

There is middle ground here, which is where I think you and most others stand in this thread.

The Twilight Zone is the middle ground between light and dark, reason and insanity. Couldn't resist.

 

[SimonDoom]

[posting personal info including real names, locations, emails, private messages or other correspondence, other identifying information from offsite is prohibited per our forum guidelines]

 

[theWollstonecraftWoman]

I don't think anyone is advocating real rape. We're talking about writing about rape and what one has a right to do with your own writing.

 

[SimonDoom]

I don't think anyone is advocating real rape. We talking about writing about rape and what one has a right to do with your own writing.

Agreed. Nobody in this thread is advocating real rape, but some of the participants in this thread don't agree with you. Some people seem, on the basis of nothing but their own personal feelings, to believe that if you write about rape you are advocating rape.

Agreed as well that the real subject is what you have a right to write. And the answer to that is "Whatever the hell you want to" unless somebody can make a good case based on reason and evidence that what you want to write is going to cause real harm (as opposed to just offending somebody's sensibilities).

 

[djrip]

Hm. I used to want to read some of her stuff.

 

[SimonDoom]

Hm. I used to want to read some of her stuff.

Me too! And until this comment my impression was always that Blackrandl1958 was very courteous, open-minded, positive, and never personally nasty. This shocked me.

 

[Duleigh]

If ever there was an advertisement for censorship.....
You're it....
I promised myself I wasn't going to enter this disgusting thread,
Unfortunately I couldn't let ignorant semi life forms like you promote rape.
Anybody who promoted turning rape into love is a very sick person who has never lived through the horror of rape.
It's not fun, it's not some wonderful fluffy experience. It's brutal, humiliating, physically destructive, that doesn't even start to cover the mental trauma that the victim has to live with for the rest of their life.
Human beings with an ounce of empathy understand that.
Writing about it in an erotic way promotes it. Glorifies it, and endorses the behaviour.
I hate that you can even say such despicable things.
Ys, it should be a crime....

Cagivagurl

ALL HAIL EMPRESS CAGIVAGURL, DEFINER OF ALL THAT IS PERMISSABLE

I spent 20 years of my life defending and upholding the constitution of the United States, I gave up my youth, my family, my health to this pursuit to be thanked by someone too ignorant to allow somone to have an opposite opinion, What else do you want to outlaw? Greeting cards? Some people use chainsaws and torture trees to get greeting cards out of them. Try looking up the word FICTION

 

[djrip]

Me too! And until this comment my impression was always that Blackrandl1958 was very courteous, open-minded, positive, and never personally nasty. This shocked me.

What's so bizarre to me is this hostility directed not toward a writer of the subject matter she finds distasteful, which I could understand, but rather, toward someone who has simply expressed support for free speech. If you don't want to censor the way she wants to censor, you're a subhuman monster. WTF. No thanks and fuck that.

 

[SimonDoom]

What's so bizarre to me is this hostility directed not toward a writer of the subject matter she finds distasteful, which I could understand, but rather, toward someone who has simply expressed support for free speech. If you don't want to censor the way she wants to censor, you're a subhuman monster. WTF. No thanks and fuck that.

Strange to me, too, because it's not as though I've written any of these stories, or said I like these stories, or said I think they are plausible in real life.

This has always seemed obvious to me: "I may disagree with what you say, but I defend your right to say it."

It's not so obvious to some people, apparently.

 

[theWollstonecraftWoman]

I've only written one story that has rape in it. It hasn't done better or worse than most of my tales. Perhaps on the lower score side. Only one comment and I responded to their comment. I got one rather nasty email about it, which I didn't answer—no need to give a hater your email address.

 

[theWollstonecraftWoman]

Strange to me, too, because it's not as though I've written any of these stories, or said I like these stories, or said I think they are plausible in real life.

This has always seemed obvious to me: "I may disagree with what you say, but I defend your right to say it."

It's not so obvious to some people, apparently.

I don't think she understood your stance.

 

[SimonDoom]

I don't think she understood your stance.

All one has to do is read the comments that I actually wrote. It's not confusing.

 

[theWollstonecraftWoman]

All one has to do is read the comments that I actually wrote. It's not confusing.

Not to most. But unless she actually believes you are supporting the right of a man to rape, her anger makes on sense.

 

[Winter_Fare]

You show your true self in how you treat real people, not in the political or social opinions you express. Blackrandli1958 showed hers.

Actual content warning on that person's non con story:
WARNING: This story contains scenes of graphic violence and non-consent. If that disturbs you, don't read any further. Click the back button, now. If you continue, I don't want to see any comments about how you are disgusted about what I warned you would be here. I will simply delete those comments. You have been warned.
Link for sceptics: https://www.literotica.com/s/twisted-9