The future is dense, walkable cities.

[AlexBailey]

American society is doomed. The country can't even pay its bills.

Until that changes....nothing will be fixed. This is the reality. Expecting different is insanity.

The solutions...if society wants them...are simple. Starts with a National Health Care plan. The chance of achieving this in the next 50 years are zero.

Now....there are other pathways to achieve utopia. But no one here is willing to go that route....so discussing them also is mute

So a day on the beach….

I’d say that makes your opinions on urban planning moot. (Not mute)

 

[BrightShinyGirl]

Sure thing. How many square miles would you need to build these 4-6 story buildings to house 1 million people, let alone 6 or 8 million people? And as you sprawl in these mini apartment buildings how big does your 15 minute city become? Unless your 15 minute city is broken down into separate 15 minute city zones, which seems a lot like suburbia.

LA already does that. It's a city of neighborhoods that grew together, much like how old European cities evolved from separate villages. There are some clusters of skyscrapers, like downtown and Century City, but much of the density of LA comes from closely-packed houses and low apartment buildings. New construction is more of the same, but with shops and bike lanes added in.

The idea of 15 minute-cities is not to pack everything into a tiny space, but to build neighborhoods where you can do most of your everyday business by walking or biking. If you need to go farther, there's always a bus or a train nearby to take you to a different neighborhood.

The way this differs from classic suburbs is that suburbs require a car to get around and drivers expect to be able to park in the city when they drive in. This makes the city worse for the people who live there. Every parking lot for suburban drivers gobbles up space that could be used for walkable shops or apartments.

 

[Paul_Chance]

One of the things we've seen here (Santa Clara Valley/San Jose Metro) has been the change in zoning. Previously in San Jose, except for a few residential high-density areas, there was a limit on going up - most apartment buildings were built in zones that had a maximum of two stories. Initially the change to higher buildings (up to five stories) took place in newly zoned districts, but recently they've allowed it in the older districts, so you see the new and replacement buildings going up to between three and five stories, usually with the first floor being zoned commercial, so in effect it's creating the little mini-downtowns that support the 15 Minute model.

It's the right move. The newer buildings - some are apartments, some apartment homes, some townhouse/condo/lofts. I live in an older townhouse, but right next to me is a newer one that goes up three stories and has a cool rooftop garden/greenspace. I gave it an eyeball and serious consideration when it went up (but ultimately decided to stay put).

 

[Dribble]

So a day on the beach….

I’d say that makes your opinions on urban planning moot. (Not mute)

Reality: 50% of US society refused to wear a fucking mask...

Your reality: nothing but pipe dreams.

 

[Dribble]

One of the things we've seen here (Santa Clara Valley/San Jose Metro) has been the change in zoning. Previously in San Jose, except for a few residential high-density areas, there was a limit on going up - most apartment buildings were built in zones that had a maximum of two stories. Initially the change to higher buildings (up to five stories) took place in newly zoned districts, but recently they've allowed it in the older districts, so you see the new and replacement buildings going up to between three and five stories, usually with the first floor being zoned commercial, so in effect it's creating the little mini-downtowns that support the 15 Minute model.

It's the right move. The newer buildings - some are apartments, some apartment homes, some townhouse/condo/lofts. I live in an older townhouse, but right next to me is a newer one that goes up three stories and has a cool rooftop garden/greenspace. I gave it an eyeball and serious consideration when it went up (but ultimately decided to stay put).

And this is how change happens. Locally.

 

[AlexBailey]

Reality: 50% of US society refused to wear a fucking mask...

Your reality: nothing but pipe dreams.

Lol, okay. So the 15 minute places that are being designed and built don’t really exist?

Is it a failure in your eyes because it hasn’t replaced all existing development?

 

[TomTeacher19]

The GOP doesn't really like cities, but they certainly are very supportive of being dense.

 

[Paul_Chance]

Yep, at the end of the day all change is local (like the saying all politics is local). On the urban planning side though, the cities have some sort of blue print for what form the changes will take. Most people just roll with the changes in life, taking advantage of the mobility modern society affords most of us.

 

[Dribble]

Lol, okay. So the 15 minute places that are being designed and built don’t really exist?

Is it a failure in your eyes because it hasn’t replaced all existing development?

No....it isn't the Federal responsibility to make it happen. If people want to live in conclaves...they should. If people don't want to live that way...they should. It isn't rocket science

 

[AlexBailey]

No....it isn't the Federal responsibility to make it happen. If people want to live in conclaves...they should. If people don't want to live that way...they should. It isn't rocket science

Who is saying it should be a federal mandate?

 

[Dribble]

Yep, at the end of the day all change is local (like the saying all politics is local). On the urban planning side though, the cities have some sort of blue print for what form the changes will take. Most people just roll with the changes in life, taking advantage of the mobility modern society affords most of us.

It really really is this simple. Communities that build a certain way will attract like-minded people over time. But how do we make existing cities self supporting? You can't. Not within my lifetime...not within my kids lifetime...not within my grandkids lifetime. Hell...we can't even give Flint Michigan safe water

 

[Dribble]

This thread is talking about urban planning to meet the needs of people in modern society. You stated your personal terminal goal and I asked if it’s what you recommend for a national plan.

So back to the original goal post: Do you have ideas for society that differ from your own personal plan of suicide on the beach?

Your fucking words...not mine. See your use of "national"? Choose your argument and stick with it

 

[Paul_Chance]

It really really is this simple. Communities that build a certain way will attract like-minded people over time. But how do we make existing cities self supporting? You can't. Not within my lifetime...not within my kids lifetime...not within my grandkids lifetime. Hell...we can't even give Flint Michigan safe water

The days of self-supporting are long gone. Whether you're urban, suburban, ex-urban, or rural these days, you're part of a complex web of interlocking and mutually supporting systems. Look no further than these wonderful machines (computers, tablets, and cell phones) that we're communicating on to see an example.

Everyone wants to live off the land. LOL - here's a tip, anyone who actually makes the decision to go live off the land (and off the grid) probably isn't participating in online forums.

 

[jaF0]

Taller buildings lead to more taller buildings and more taller buildings. Then you have concrete jungles with no green spaces and no one can see more than the 50 feet or less to the next building.

I've seen some plans to convert some of the older shopping centers and malls into a combination of office, light manufacturing, medical, retail and residential. Sort of self contained towns where people live and work in the same space. Some even offer recreation areas, community garden spaces and fresh produce markets. No vehicles needed.

 

[Dribble]

The days of self-supporting are long gone. Whether you're urban, suburban, ex-urban, or rural these days, you're part of a complex web of interlocking and mutually supporting systems. Look no further than these wonderful machines (computers, tablets, and cell phones) that we're communicating on to see an example.

Everyone wants to life off the land. LOL - here's a tip, anyone who actually makes the decision to go live off the land (and off the grid) probably isn't participating in online forums.

When I refer to self-supporting...i am looking at this notion of getting 90% of your services within a 15 minute walk. Not needing a car. Relying on transit. I just don't see Americans doing this...ever. Yes...we can have small conclaves of like-minded people pulling this off. But the majority of Americans don't want this. If they do ..show me the studies showing that

 

[AlexBailey]

When I refer to self-supporting...i am looking at this notion of getting 90% of your services within a 15 minute walk. Not needing a car. Relying on transit. I just don't see Americans doing this...ever. Yes...we can have small conclaves of like-minded people pulling this off. But the majority of Americans don't want this. If they do ..show me the studies showing that

Why are you railing against this idea? It doesn’t require your buy-in nor anyone else’s who would not want to live there.

Many Americans find this to be a appealing choice.


Incidentally, are you just planning to leave your corpse on the beach for some morning jogger to find?

 

[Chernosoth]

Without petrochemical roofing materials, we will need more pitched roofs. Gambrel roofs are more work to build, but provide more living space underneath than simple gable roofs. Gambrels are commonly known in the US as barn roofs and mansards. The barn style may be preferred for heavier snow loads.

 

[Paul_Chance]

When I refer to self-supporting...i am looking at this notion of getting 90% of your services within a 15 minute walk. Not needing a car. Relying on transit. I just don't see Americans doing this...ever. Yes...we can have small conclaves of like-minded people pulling this off. But the majority of Americans don't want this. If they do ..show me the studies showing that

If you're truly interested, there is a good YouGov poll here.

https://today.yougov.com/politics/articles/45540-poll-americans-support-15-minute-neighborhood

 

[HisArpy]

Why are you railing against this idea? It doesn’t require your buy-in nor anyone else’s who would not want to live there.

Many Americans find this to be a appealing choice.


Incidentally, are you just planning to leave your corpse on the beach for some morning jogger to find?

High density urbanization actually does require the cooperation of everyone because the flow of goods and commerce defeat the principles inherent in the idea of the "walkable" or "15 minute" city.

No city of any density can support itself without cooperation of the areas outside of the city. From food to other consumer goods, those things come from outside the city.

Transporting those goods requires roads to centralized distribution networks. Which require roads to markets. All of that requires workers and no matter how "dense" the city is, local areas cannot supply enough workers to fulfill those needs or the needs of other businesses in that area.

A simple example would be 100 residents in a local "walkable" area. All 100 of them have a business which requires 3 additional workers. If all 100 are employed as business owners where do the 300 workers come from? Answer; outside the area.

It doesn't matter how large or small the area is, more workers will always be required than the area can provide.

Which means that you will always have commuters and they will be traveling from home to work and back again. Which defeats the concept.

Now let's talk about redlining against employees and workers who live outside the area...

 

[Paul_Chance]

Why are you railing against this idea? It doesn’t require your buy-in nor anyone else’s who would not want to live there.

Many Americans find this to be a appealing choice.

Incidentally, are you just planning to leave your corpse on the beach for some morning jogger to find?

Hahaha - this if off topic, but it made me remember this funny video from years ago about Joggers and Dead Bodies.

 

[BrightShinyGirl]

If you're truly interested, there is a good YouGov poll here.

https://today.yougov.com/politics/articles/45540-poll-americans-support-15-minute-neighborhood

Most Americans want to live in a walkable neighborhood, but after a century of American cities subsidizing car travel, they have a hard time imagining how anything could change. They imagine their own neighborhood--only with cars taken away. Of course that won't work, because their neighborhood was built from the ground up to require car ownership. What's needed is gradually rebuilding smarter and greener.

 

[BrightShinyGirl]

High density urbanization actually does require the cooperation of everyone because the flow of goods and commerce defeat the principles inherent in the idea of the "walkable" or "15 minute" city.

No city of any density can support itself without cooperation of the areas outside of the city. From food to other consumer goods, those things come from outside the city.

Transporting those goods requires roads to centralized distribution networks. Which require roads to markets. All of that requires workers and no matter how "dense" the city is, local areas cannot supply enough workers to fulfill those needs or the needs of other businesses in that area.

A simple example would be 100 residents in a local "walkable" area. All 100 of them have a business which requires 3 additional workers. If all 100 are employed as business owners where do the 300 workers come from? Answer; outside the area.

It doesn't matter how large or small the area is, more workers will always be required than the area can provide.

Which means that you will always have commuters and they will be traveling from home to work and back again. Which defeats the concept.

Now let's talk about redlining against employees and workers who live outside the area...

That's where trains and buses come in: to transport workers between little pockets of walkability.

 

[Paul_Chance]

Most Americans want to live in a walkable neighborhood, but after a century of American cities subsidizing car travel, they have a hard time imagining how anything could change. They imagine their own neighborhood--only with cars taken away. Of course that won't work, because their neighborhood was built from the ground up to require car ownership. What's needed is gradually rebuilding smarter and greener.

Yep, most people say "I like the idea" but "how the hell do we get there from here". When the concept was first floated, a few years ago (originating in Paris), many urban centers looked at their plans and said "Hey, we're already working on getting there" and people went "oh, cool, rock on". (All my imaginary people are hipsters, I just find it more entertaining.)

 

[HisArpy]

Most Americans want to live in a walkable neighborhood, but after a century of American cities subsidizing car travel, they have a hard time imagining how anything could change. They imagine their own neighborhood--only with cars taken away. Of course that won't work, because their neighborhood was built from the ground up to require car ownership. What's needed is gradually rebuilding smarter and greener.

False.

Most Americans want to live in safe neighborhoods and apart from their neighbors.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/busi...americans-prefer-live-suburbs-instead-cities/

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/americans-pick-country-over-city-suburbs-opinion-poll/

https://www.pewresearch.org/social-...live-in-cities-more-likely-to-prefer-suburbs/

The only saving grace for your statement is that PEW found that the <30 crowd prefers city life. Which, in the population as a whole isn't "most" or even "the majority."

So you might want to rethink the way you're talking because it's not the past, present, or future.

 

[HisArpy]

That's where trains and buses come in: to transport workers between little pockets of walkability.

And of course you have an answer for those transportation deserts, right? Maybe more buses and trains? And roads to run them on? Let's not forget the engineers and drivers and support staff you're going to need either. Where are you going to get them? Even further afield? Which will require an ever increasing network needing more and more people as it expands. A need it cannot keep up with.

What you propose is a pipe dream. You won't admit it because you're not able to see the big picture. Which is fine but please stop trying to tell us that the one lone pixel you can see and understand is how the entire world works.