The future is dense, walkable cities.

[Chernosoth]

Some of the negative impressions of cities may be based on "the projects," the government-funded housing built with high hopes and terrible results. That may also affect opinions of government doing anything in cities.

 

[VinnyVeritas]

Robert Silverberg (Silverburg?) wrote a novel based on the concept of huge, hermetically-sealed cities that people did not leave.

There was sex in it to, so some of you Sci-Fi perverts may have read it.

 

[VinnyVeritas]

Some of the negative impressions of cities may be based on "the projects," the government-funded housing built with high hopes and terrible results. That may also affect opinions of government doing anything in cities.

I grew up in a city with no projects that was divided by a river. The Kansas bank was Republican (and home of the most affluent county in the region) and did not have the problems of the Democratic Missouri side, so projects are not to blame for its disfunctionality. That leaves only Democrats unless you want to blame the minorities like the blacks, the Hispanics, the Italians...,

 

[JohnnySavage]

Robert Silverberg (Silverburg?) wrote a novel based on the concept of huge, hermetically-sealed cities that people did not leave.

There was sex in it to, so some of you Sci-Fi perverts may have read it.

Logan's Run.

Farrah's faucets.

 

[Rotadom]

I grew up in a city with no projects that was divided by a river. The Kansas bank was Republican (and home of the most affluent county in the region) and did not have the problems of the Democratic Missouri side, so projects are not to blame for its disfunctionality. That leaves only Democrats unless you want to blame the minorities like the blacks, the Hispanics, the Italians...,

i'M @ lIb3t@ri@n!

 

[VinnyVeritas]

You have severe mental issues but are too arrogant to seek help.

 

[Rotadom]

You have severe mental issues but are too arrogant to seek help.

You used to be a (literal) cocksucking Democrat.

 

[Fuzzy1975]

Other than adding the part about the difference between three phase systems and single phase

The grid is transmitted in 3 phases and distribution systems often are in three phase, even in areas of residential connections. It's just a more efficient method of transmission. ( DC is even better over long distance )

you pretty much went over a lot of what I just did but I was taking what Paul said in a mathematical sense. See point finite.

Again "finite point" is irrelevant. It's a buzz word. The system is already controlled to a finite point. Has been for decades. Frequency control for example is already 99.993 % accurate. Voltage control +/- 4 volts

A big part we left out is smart load management. Being able to shut down large loads when there is not enough supply or when there is a fault is a necessity. There are all sorts of problems and complications that come about when something happens, but there is great benefit to figuring it out.

This already exists. Nothing new here.

I’ve set up business with limited backup resources, being strategic so they can keep operating in some capacity just off of a small scaled backup system.

Which is fine, but that has nothing to do with the system itself. As I said, regional area's can be cordoned off to control which allows for non distributed generation, produced locally to be used up in that area. However there is a limit to what an area can self generate and use up.

Even most large manufacturers can still be productive with limited available electricity. Sure it can be a problem but not as bad as a complete blackout.

Not true, modernisation of manufacturing today requires a constant energy flow, even a 2 millisecond ( for example) spike or drop in voltage above or below a certain threshold can cause flow control issues. For example in hot flow systems such as news print, or HDPE injection mould systems ( again for example), an interruption can shut the system down and in some cases it can take a day or two to restart. You cannot have a system that could cause such issues to be inter-connected, NERC's regulation prevent that. So you then need to double up the controls ( even wires) in the substation to offset that potential issue.

When subways or trains have some battery capacity they can benefit from regenerative braking and keeping surges off of their systems in normal use, then they have limited capacity available to make it to the next station in emergencies etc…

Different animal ( but it fits in well with my point about the need to be separate for self-generating areas) an electric train system is on it's own power supply. Once the power is delivered to the Train power station, everything beyond that point is isolated from the LDC ( local distribution supplier).

The tech exists. Smart meters are only the beginning…

Smart meters are just a tool for tracking on time usage for billing. What I think you meant was smart grid tie inverters.

I've over ten years experience in system control and operation and regional transmission designs. A "micro grid" is really a buzz term, as is even the term "electrical grid". The term Grid came from Tesla's electrical drawings he produced when he was trying to sell his AC transmission idea to Westinghouse.

Funny history if you're interested and look at the rivalry between Westinghouse and Edison. Westinghouse's system won, but Edison's DC vernacular still exists today. If you ever measure your 120 V ac house outlet with an oscilloscope, you'll not measure 120 Vs....you'll actually measure 720 volts.

Anyhow I didn't mean to run this threads topic off the "rails".

Let me try this explanation, see if it helps.

Envision "The Grid" as a chess board, a selection of 8 x 8 subsections. The power to these subsections is currently controlled by the grid operator. They can turn the power on or off to a specific square. These squares are a specific size (and unlike the uniform chess squares, they're am organic variety of shapes and sizes.

Already exists

Then, the move (gradually) to a micro-grid approach, where they take each square and make it a micro-version of the original chess board. Now, you have each of the original 64 squares, each contains 64 squares. Each of these new squares can be turned on or off, power can be routed to them via multiple paths.

Already exists

Where as in the traditional grid (64 squares) you're compelled to effect a large number of customers when their is an adverse event effecting a single square. In the microgrid design you can radically minimize the impact of adverse events because it allows greater precision in response to adverse events.

In California, as in other states, a lot of what is driving them to this approach has been unreliability of the larger grid, combined with liability for grid wide events.

Make sense? As a concept, it's a good one.

I assume (it's been 30+ years since I did any design work in the US) these are being incorporated in new builds and also in areas when capital upgrades or maintenance work is being done.

Rather than 64 points of control, your would then have 64x64 points of control when it is completed. The increased points of control also allows the grid operator to route power into a given area via multiple routes. The further distribution, especially in terms of urban settings, means fewer customers resting on a single point of failure.

Points of control are great, but really all you need are the automatic trips of circuit breakers to isolate an area from the cascade effects of when a supply problem starts. IE an ice storm/forest fire taking down a transmission line.

Again back to my question on you using the "finite control" etc as the reason for moving to "micro grids". That is not he reason. The reason is the need to generate electricity is changing. We are moving from the decades of having large spinning generators which offer inertia to the system, to where we will have thousands of small generators producing power, that don't have the inertia needed when a cascading power issue shows up.
(I'll also not going to reactive power etc and where that support needs to come from etc.)

anyhow I'll not hijack this thread any further.

 

[AlexBailey]

Already exists

Already exists

Great! So no R&D needed. They’ve already got every beneficial design worked out and in place.

That whole 150 page report I read from PG&E was fiction and just for coffee tables and you’ve got all the answers.

I’ll go tell my mini-grid customers not to rely on their systems because they’re just buzz words.

Oh yeah, and every single manufacturer has a hot flow issue….

 

[jaF0]

Summayall's got it xactly bassakwards.

They're literally paving paradise and putting up parking lots. That's called urban sprawl. Farmland by the thousands of acres are being turned into factories, office space, shopping centers and housing developments.

Out here in my neck of the sticks, city folk buy 100 acres or more, clear a spot in the middle and build a single house. They do nothing with the land around the homesite other than to make sure no one else can build anywhere near them. No agriculture, timber, wildlife management or anything esle productive, just mine, mine, mine !!!!

 

[Paul_Chance]

@Fuzzy1975 I think most threads here in politics are basically "The Hijackers Express" airline. Someone climbs into the cockpit, gets on the speaker and announces a destination, and then everyone rushes the cockpit to try to get it to go to their destination.

It can be entertaining in that weird "watch the crash" way.

Thanks for your contributions to the discussion that weaved in and out.

 

[Paul_Chance]

Great! So no R&D needed. They’ve already got every beneficial design worked out and in place.

That whole 150 page report I read from PG&E was fiction and just for coffee tables and you’ve got all the answers.

I’ll go tell my mini-grid customers not to rely on their systems because they’re just buzz words.

Oh yeah, and every single business has a hot flow issue….

LOL - I have certainly read my share of fiction in planning reports. And won more than one game of buzzword bingo in meetings.

 

[AlexBailey]

LOL - I have certainly read my share of fiction in planning reports. And won more than one game of buzzword bingo in meetings.

Right? Attended some charettes have you?

PG&E’s report was a refreshing change from regular corporate propaganda, it had almost no window dressing and was identifying problems and company shortcomings in addressing them. Definitely a corporate mea culpa and a solicitation for help.

 

[Dribble]

Some of the negative impressions of cities may be based on "the projects," the government-funded housing built with high hopes and terrible results. That may also affect opinions of government doing anything in cities.

Can't talk about the Government governing in a manner that keeps certain racial groups marginalized. That's known as CRT. Look at where EVERY Eisenhower Highway was built through a city. See all those curves? Perfectly placed to disrupt existing minority neighborhoods.

 

[Paul_Chance]

One of the challenges in retrofitting an already existing urban area is the whole zoning and planning issue, trying to build consensus. Here, we've begun to move in the direction of the fifteen minute city, but it generates a lot of pushback.

One of the classic things about urban planning is everyone wants the cool stuff - until their street gets ripped up for two years while they're putting the bike lanes in, changing the traffic flow, and taking lanes away.

Then of course, once it's done, looks cool, and works everyone goes "yeah, I was always onboard". I'm not sure what that tendency is, but it seems deeply ingrained.

 

[TrailerHitch]

One of the challenges in retrofitting an already existing urban area is the whole zoning and planning issue, trying to build consensus. Here, we've begun to move in the direction of the fifteen minute city, but it generates a lot of pushback.

One of the classic things about urban planning is everyone wants the cool stuff - until their street gets ripped up for two years while they're putting the bike lanes in, changing the traffic flow, and taking lanes away.

Then of course, once it's done, looks cool, and works everyone goes "yeah, I was always onboard". I'm not sure what that tendency is, but it seems deeply ingrained.

Yes, I am being a smart ass but here goes. What sidewalks in your 15 minute city are designated for the homeless and drug addicts to shit on? Is there a designated park zone for encampments? Or will all those desirables be removed and dumped into suburbia or the rural territories?

 

[AlexBailey]

Yes, I am being a smart ass but here goes. What sidewalks in your 15 minute city are designated for the homeless and drug addicts to shit on? Is there a designated park zone for encampments? Or will all those desirables be removed and dumped into suburbia or the rural territories?

Ooh, what’s your solution for the homeless problem?

No doubt you blame the libs, how are you smart people going to solve the issue?

 

[BrightShinyGirl]

Yes, I am being a smart ass but here goes. What sidewalks in your 15 minute city are designated for the homeless and drug addicts to shit on? Is there a designated park zone for encampments? Or will all those desirables be removed and dumped into suburbia or the rural territories?

Give them cheap housing and a small stipend to live on.

 

[BrightShinyGirl]

What I’m learning from this thread is that people who don’t like cities and would never live in one, nevertheless have very strong opinions about urban planning.

 

[jaF0]

Urban Planning is exactly why I don't like cities and why I left one so long ago.

 

[TrailerHitch]

Ooh, what’s your solution for the homeless problem?

No doubt you blame the libs, how are you smart people going to solve the issue?

Actually the original problem goes back to Ronald Reagan's policies that dumped thousands of mentally ill on the streets to fend for themselves. The immense amount of drug use, especially opioids and fentanyl have added to that problem. Drugs are not really a right or left issue. Add to that covid and economic downturns and job loss and homelessness is always a possibility.

So what's my answer? Better jobs than fast food and low paying sales jobs at big box stores. But that takes a complete paradigm shift in American business. It means stop sending manufacturing jobs overseas and bring those jobs back here. Better education in real world marketable skills. Stop telling lids that blue collar jobs are beneath them. Help rebuild inner city businesses and give them the real police protection that they need so they aren't robbed out of business. Many cities are suffering from business flight because of crime and violence.

There also needs to be a serious ramping up of mental health services and offer them at low costs or free to those who can't afford to pay.

Housing assistance needs to be better funded so people aren't living on the street. Especially those with children.

I have no plan on how to implement any of this because some requires government intervention and some requires businesses to step up. Maybe you can put these ideas into a working model. Or maybe you think I am wrong.

 

[AlexBailey]

Urban Planning is exactly why I don't like cities and why I left one so long ago.

How long do you think you will you be able to take care of yourself out in the sticks?

Will you still live out there alone in your 80’s?

 

[Dribble]

What I’m learning from this thread is that people who don’t like cities and would never live in one, nevertheless have very strong opinions about urban planning.

And there lies the whole kaboom huh?

I love living in a city. I love living in the country. I hated LA. I think too many times people equate a single bad experience to the whole. That is foolish.

There is only so much money to go around. Priorities are not the same...even for people living in a city.

 

[Dribble]

How long do you think you will you be able to take care of yourself out in the sticks?

Will you still live out there alone in your 80’s?

Absolutely. Not a problem. When I get old and can't take care of myself...I will go to the beach...talk to God...and end it. I am not afraid of death. Why would I burden my kids like my parents have done?

 

[TrailerHitch]

What I’m learning from this thread is that people who don’t like cities and would never live in one, nevertheless have very strong opinions about urban planning.

Because what often happens, and Cabrini Green in Chicago is a great example, when urban renewal occurs they have to find a place to put all of the people that lived where the renewal will occur. I don't know if you are aware or not but Cabrini Green was a low income housing project that had degraded over the years to high crime and drug use. When they closed it down they shipped residents to the suburbs, like where my wife was from. They created a homeless problem and dumped it into the burbs. So yes, we do have strong opinions on urban planning when it includes asshole moves like dumping your problems on another community.