When Real Life Expectation Cannot Meet the Dreams of the Altruists

[zipman]

Stupid, Old man yells at lawn

Fixed your post.

 

[zipman]

Prove that I once ever, ANYWHERE denied the election results.

Next you'll be claiming I am MAGA!

You are a great liar.

I don't recall you denying it, but then again, I don't recall you saying Biden won either.

Would you care to do that now?

 

[zipman]

I recently stumbled on an Instagram account by a woman named Haleigh DeRocher, (@sweetsequels). She creates exquisite artwork based on classic literature from authors like J.R.R. Tolkien, Charles Dickens, and C.S. Lewis.

On Tuesday, she posted a quote from Lewis’ wife, author Joy Davidman, who wrote, “Every age has its professional apologists, and ours are working hard to convince us that our worst sins are virtues.” [emphasis mine] Davidman wrote these words in 1954 in Smoke on the Mountain, her meditation on the Ten Commandments, but the quote sounds like she’s writing about our present age.

Chris Queen, PJMedia

You mean like how white, Christian nationalism is a good thing?

 

[schism666]

Would you care to do that now?

not a chance in hell

 

[HisArpy]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific_Electric

System map of the red car network in 1920:

View attachment 2248013

Lol. Do you have any idea of what LA looked like other than that map?

Try this:

Los Angeles in the 1920's

Street map of LA:

https://cdn.supadupa.me/shop/14281/images/1902136/los_angeles_1926_etsy_frame_massive.jpg

And, according to data the population of Los Angeles was over 1 million people in the 1920's.

That's a lot of people to be riding your puny red car "train" system. Too many in fact.

You know how I know that? Because this is what your vaunted "train city" red car line looked like in real life:
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/a4/fb/d9/a4fbd92fd38acc1e4432716887ea4220.jpg

That's NOTHING when it comes to mass transit. And of course everyone will notice all those private transportation methods which outnumber the "train." Which isn't a "train" at all, it's a trolley.


And there's this shot from 1902:

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/3d/0f/36/3d0f36ed58d1d0365899f1531405708c.jpg


Notice how there are more horses/buggies than "train cars"?

And here are some more images of early Los Angeles:



https://th.bing.com/th/id/R.ea488abe77c7137198853bb049799b9a?rik=fPrrus%2blsNGJSg&pid=ImgRaw&r=0

https://th.bing.com/th/id/OIP.r7uR-KGxvotsV61Hz5S43AAAAA?pid=ImgDet&rs=1

https://coololdphotos.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/4/2016/06/17897u-1024x520-768x390.jpg

That's a lot different that what you're trying to say. So much different it's almost like you're lying about how Los Angeles evolved into a major metroplex and mass transit in the city.

In fact it's so close to a lie, one might want to read up on why the system failed:

A number of other forces also drove the nail into the coffin of the streetcar era. Changes in regulations and funding, increased suburbanization, and congestion from personal vehicles caused the streetcar system to slowly unravel, and buses began to take over more and more routes. Difficult labor relations and the tight regulation of fares, routes and schedules kept the streetcar system stuck in a bygone era. By World War I, road improvements were more heavily funded than electric lines and tracks, which paved the way for buses to take over. As personal car ownership skyrocketed, an increase in traffic congestion hurt the streetcar by reducing service speeds, increasing operation costs and making the service less attractive to the people who still used it. And the trend towards suburbanization created low-density land use patterns that were centered around the automobile and made no sense for streetcars.

https://inhabitat.com/what-happened-to-los-angeles-streetcars/

Basically, all that means is that you've got your head up your ass when it comes to the history of Los Angeles.

 

[BrightShinyGirl]

Lol. Do you have any idea of what LA looked like other than that map?

Try this:

Los Angeles in the 1920's

Street map of LA:

https://cdn.supadupa.me/shop/14281/images/1902136/los_angeles_1926_etsy_frame_massive.jpg

And, according to data the population of Los Angeles was over 1 million people in the 1920's.

That's a lot of people to be riding your puny red car "train" system. Too many in fact.

You know how I know that? Because this is what your vaunted "train city" red car line looked like in real life:
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/a4/fb/d9/a4fbd92fd38acc1e4432716887ea4220.jpg

That's NOTHING when it comes to mass transit. And of course everyone will notice all those private transportation methods which outnumber the "train." Which isn't a "train" at all, it's a trolley.


And there's this shot from 1902:

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/3d/0f/36/3d0f36ed58d1d0365899f1531405708c.jpg


Notice how there are more horses/buggies than "train cars"?

And here are some more images of early Los Angeles:



https://th.bing.com/th/id/R.ea488abe77c7137198853bb049799b9a?rik=fPrrus%2blsNGJSg&pid=ImgRaw&r=0

https://th.bing.com/th/id/OIP.r7uR-KGxvotsV61Hz5S43AAAAA?pid=ImgDet&rs=1

https://coololdphotos.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/4/2016/06/17897u-1024x520-768x390.jpg

That's a lot different that what you're trying to say. So much different it's almost like you're lying about how Los Angeles evolved into a major metroplex and mass transit in the city.

In fact it's so close to a lie, one might want to read up on why the system failed:



Basically, all that means is that you've got your head up your ass when it comes to the history of Los Angeles.

Early developers in Los Angeles built “train suburbs” along the expanding Red Car network because the roads were too primitive to support heavy car traffic. It wasn’t until the 1950s that the first freeways were built.

Most of the old Red Car right-of-ways still exist and are being used for expanding the Metro network today.

 

[ll74]

Fixed your post.

Yah, that was implied

 

[HisArpy]

Early developers in Los Angeles built “train suburbs” along the expanding Red Car network because the roads were too primitive to support heavy car traffic. It wasn’t until the 1950s that the first freeways were built.

Most of the old Red Car right-of-ways still exist and are being used for expanding the Metro network today.

^ somebody either can't read or they are deliberately lying about the facts.

The trolly system was essentially unworkable by WWI (you know, by 1917) because the urban sprawl of LA made it impractical for most commuters. One need only look at a street map of Los Angeles to realize that most residents didn't live anywhere close to the trolly lines and thus couldn't use them for transportation.

Continue expansion of the city into more rural areas only exacerbated that issue. That's not to mention that the population had risen to the point that the rail trolley transit system couldn't handle the traffic volume that was using it. Or that mass transit switched to busses because they were more efficient and could go places that rail lines couldn't reach.

Basically, you're stuck on the romance of an outdated transit system that didn't work even in the era it existed in originally. Attempting to return to that system would be folly.

 

[IrezumiKiss]

Oh, good. The grammar Nazis. Always entertaining. Too bad they can't put all of that brainpower into making a meaningful contribution to the thread, then again, FroDOH! especially is just not up to the standard of "brain power." He's a net brain drain...

Izzy clearly has no original thoughts of his own.

get a load of Mr. "Meaningful Contribution" here just unable to take the piss when his I'm Too Clever For The Likes Of You® wig is pulled off his head...again.

he even used the same misspelled word twice in two threads doing the same joke yesterday because he was sooooooooo proud of how clever he was to write biting humor.

so efficaciously biting, it was!

https://66.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m3gsadCW9r1rqfhi2o1_500.gif
guess he's gonna go find more words to use that'll make everyone get out their online dictionaries for again soon. maybe tomorrow!

 

[BrightShinyGirl]

^ somebody either can't read or they are deliberately lying about the facts.

The trolly system was essentially unworkable by WWI (you know, by 1917) because the urban sprawl of LA made it impractical for most commuters. One need only look at a street map of Los Angeles to realize that most residents didn't live anywhere close to the trolly lines and thus couldn't use them for transportation.

Continue expansion of the city into more rural areas only exacerbated that issue. That's not to mention that the population had risen to the point that the rail trolley transit system couldn't handle the traffic volume that was using it. Or that mass transit switched to busses because they were more efficient and could go places that rail lines couldn't reach.

Basically, you're stuck on the romance of an outdated transit system that didn't work even in the era it existed in originally. Attempting to return to that system would be folly.

Private automobiles are an outdated transit system. They seemed to hold great promise in the 1950s, but as cities have grown, they proved to be a dead end.

My original point is that Los Angeles is lucky in the respect. A lot of the densest parts of the city are strung out along the old Red Car lines and those right-of-ways can be (and are) used for modern rail service.

 

[Rightguide]

Interestingly, Los Angeles is "ahead of the curve" with it's fifth-generation bus system (gas, diesel, LNG, early battery, now state of the art electrical). They've converted almost 100% of their bus fleet and now working on changing all school busses to EV too. They are quieter and can travel great distances between charges. all of this since 2020. Federal subsidies have lots of California governments lining up to purchase EV busses. Half the EV busses in Murica are manufactured in Modesto California. Zero carbon emission....Looks like California is making great strides towards zero carbon goals (to the dismay of HisArpy, Cobham and the rest of the "Drill Babby Drill" Luddites).

It also has an enormous collection of filth, sickness, illiteracy, homeless camps, and a dusty trail of modern wagons moving Southeast called the "Texas Trail," and the ruts are beginning to show for future generations to wonder at as well.

 

[Rightguide]

Private automobiles are an outdated transit system. They seemed to hold great promise in the 1950s, but as cities have grown, they proved to be a dead end.

The above is idiocy. Even in the most totalitarian places on Earth individual transportation is essential to modern life. The automobile is the most technologically advanced and affordable mode of travel that serves the need of the majority of "individuals."

 

[schism666]

The above is idiocy. Even in the most totalitarian places on Earth individual transportation is essential to modern life. The automobile is the most technologically advanced and affordable mode of travel that serves the need of the majority of "individuals."

https://media.tenor.com/RDzXhZuIxH0AAAAM/missing-the-point-missed-point.gif

 

[BrightShinyGirl]

The above is idiocy. Even in the most totalitarian places on Earth individual transportation is essential to modern life. The automobile is the most technologically advanced and affordable mode of travel that serves the need of the majority of "individuals."

Electric bicycles are more affordable and convenient than cars as individual transportation.

 

[HisArpy]

Electric bicycles are more affordable and convenient than cars as individual transportation.

^someone has never had to try to ride a bicycle in the Santa Ana winds. Or ride an E-bike in the rain. Or even ride one for 50 miles twice a day.

Basically, you've bullshitted yourself into a corner because your woke crapfest doesn't work in the real world. You can deny it, but the FACTS are that private transportation has been a staple of mankind since the dawn of mankind. You aren't going to change that with lies and bullshit.

 

[BrightShinyGirl]

^someone has never had to try to ride a bicycle in the Santa Ana winds. Or ride an E-bike in the rain. Or even ride one for 50 miles twice a day.

Basically, you've bullshitted yourself into a corner because your woke crapfest doesn't work in the real world. You can deny it, but the FACTS are that private transportation has been a staple of mankind since the dawn of mankind. You aren't going to change that with lies and bullshit.

The idea of encouraging urban density is to ensure that people can afford housing without being forced to drive several hours every day simply to get to work. Making a long daily car commute is a miserable way to live your life.

 

[HisArpy]

The idea of encouraging urban density is to ensure that people can afford housing without being forced to drive several hours every day simply to get to work. Making a long daily car commute is a miserable way to live your life.

Sure, this is why LA's urban sprawl began while the trolley's were still running. They craved urban density and hated living in the country or suburbs where housing was cheaper, the air cleaner, and crime lower.

Get a grip and understand that you're wrong, you've always been wrong, and you're going to continue to be wrong as long as you insist on your little fantasy replacing reality.

LA is not, and NEVER HAS BEEN, a "train city." Anyone who thinks so is a nutjob.

 

[BrightShinyGirl]

Sure, this is why LA's urban sprawl began while the trolley's were still running. They craved urban density and hated living in the country or suburbs where housing was cheaper, the air cleaner, and crime lower.

Get a grip and understand that you're wrong, you've always been wrong, and you're going to continue to be wrong as long as you insist on your little fantasy replacing reality.

LA is not, and NEVER HAS BEEN, a "train city." Anyone who thinks so is a nutjob.

Even the freeways in L.A. testify to its rail history. South of Pico and Sepulveda, the 405 does a little jog to the west because when it was built in the 1960s it had to avoid the pre-existing Red Car line between Culver City and Santa Monica. The modern Expo Line follows the same right-of-way.

 

[schism666]

Or even ride one for 50 miles twice a day.

no one is trying to do that.

derp.

 

[Chobham]

Even the freeways in L.A. testify to its rail history. South of Pico and Sepulveda, the 405 does a little jog to the west because when it was built in the 1960s it had to avoid the pre-existing Red Car line between Culver City and Santa Monica. The modern Expo Line follows the same right-of-way.

Both you and HA are right...............to an extent. With few exceptions all major cities are found at the junction of rail and navigable water ways be they ocean ports, rivers, or both. The keys to a prosperous civilization are, and have ALWAYS been, ample affordable energy and efficient means of transportation.

Far and away (liquids being an exception....pipelines) the most efficient means of transportation is by water, rial is second, overland is the least efficient. When viewed through that lens it's easy to see how the infrastructure works. Major ports represent the hubs, rail represent the major spokes, and land (roads) are the minor spokes.

When the US was a major manufacturing power it all made sense. Industry was concentrated in defined areas where it was perfectly sensible to run rail, or other mass transport, from residential areas to where the jobs were. But that was the US of yesterday. We are now a service economy and jobs are no longer concentrated in condensed areas. Rail no longer makes sense.

The US is going through another paradigm shift and no one has quite figured out where we're going to land. Rail may very well be part of the solution but it is no magic bullet. There is only one constant in this whole process, the need for abundant and cheap energy. Solve the energy problem and all the rest will fall into place.

 

[BrightShinyGirl]

The car industry has spent a hundred years trying to convince people that personal cars equal freedom. Automobile ads show cars zooming down empty roads and pulling up effortlessly in front of the driver’s destination.

The reality is much different from the propaganda. Car ownership for most people means going in debt, sitting in traffic for hours every day, then struggling to find a parking space.

Real freedom is being able to get where you want to go by walking or biking. If you want to go far away, a cheap bus or a train will be by in a few minutes to take you there.

 

[HisArpy]

Both you and HA are right...............to an extent. With few exceptions all major cities are found at the junction of rail and navigable water ways be they ocean ports, rivers, or both. The keys to a prosperous civilization are, and have ALWAYS been, ample affordable energy and efficient means of transportation.

Far and away (liquids being an exception....pipelines) the most efficient means of transportation is by water, rial is second, overland is the least efficient. When viewed through that lens it's easy to see how the infrastructure works. Major ports represent the hubs, rail represent the major spokes, and land (roads) are the minor spokes.

When the US was a major manufacturing power it all made sense. Industry was concentrated in defined areas where it was perfectly sensible to run rail, or other mass transport, from residential areas to where the jobs were. But that was the US of yesterday. We are now a service economy and jobs are no longer concentrated in condensed areas. Rail no longer makes sense.

The US is going through another paradigm shift and no one has quite figured out where we're going to land. Rail may very well be part of the solution but it is no magic bullet. There is only one constant in this whole process, the need for abundant and cheap energy. Solve the energy problem and all the rest will fall into place.

The problem with rail is that it's terrain sensitive. It can't climb well so it has to wander and wind it's way upward.

LA isn't flat. Even downtown isn't flat. There's a funicular cable car, Angels Flight, which goes from 3rd street to Hill street - a distance of about 300 feet - with nearly 100 feet of elevation gain. The consequence of the non-level terrain limits the viability of any rail system to service the entire city efficiently.

Geographically, LA is located on an alluvial plain at the foot of the coastal mountain ranges of SoCal. The city encompasses those mountains as part of it's boundaries and residents live on the sides of and valleys in those mountains.

The result is that the rail lines are arteries in a city which is immense and sprawling well outside those arteries. To use the rail lines, or even the bus lines, Commuters have to drive tens of miles to get to a mass transit station, where there's inadequate parking for all of them, and then take the transit more miles to get to their destination. A total distance which is in most cases more than if they just drive from point A to point B. Very inefficient and that's without including the extra costs of the mass transit in the trip.

What BSG wants to do is return to the golden years when life was slower and everything cheaper. What she doesn't understand is that the life she romanticizes also included racism and segregation and that is was that racism and segregation which allowed mass transit to work because it moved segregated residents only within their "zones." Those uppity minorities had no way to get to the better parts of town because the rail system didn't go there. It had no need to because the well off had private transportation and weren't going to mingle with the unwashed.

One need only look at the city street map and overlay the mass transit rail lines to see that even today rail is unworkable. Even freeways do not go everywhere because the necessary Right-Of-Ways aren't there (Exhibit A is the break in the 210 freeway at Glendale/Pasadena - it has to use surface streets because the State doesn't have the trillions it would cost just to buy the land through condemnation.) If the State can't afford to do it for freeway improvements, the City rail system can't either.

In the end, the entire idea is just cray cray.

 

[HisArpy]

The car industry has spent a hundred years trying to convince people that personal cars equal freedom. Automobile ads show cars zooming down empty roads and pulling up effortlessly in front of the driver’s destination.

The reality is much different from the propaganda. Car ownership for most people means going in debt, sitting in traffic for hours every day, then struggling to find a parking space.

Real freedom is being able to get where you want to go by walking or biking. If you want to go far away, a cheap bus or a train will be by in a few minutes to take you there.

"Real freedom" isn't living in a tiny bubble. Nor does your idea encompass the ability to actually go wherever you want to travel to. Under your (brainless) "plan" no one would see the great outdoors because there'd be no way to get there. No Sequoias, no Yosemite, no Big Bear or Arrowhead, no Angeles Crest forest.

Even if you could go to locations nearby, the things that brought you there couldn't happen. Think of the balloon festival in Alburquerque, with mass transit as the only method of transportation there's no way to get the balloons there or retrieve them. The Native American tribal festival in Arizona can't happen. No rodeos or fairs either.

Basically, your idea sucks because it doesn't work. That you can't see that only shows that your ability to think is limited to the propaganda you've been fed.

 

[BrightShinyGirl]

"Real freedom" isn't living in a tiny bubble. Nor does your idea encompass the ability to actually go wherever you want to travel to. Under your (brainless) "plan" no one would see the great outdoors because there'd be no way to get there. No Sequoias, no Yosemite, no Big Bear or Arrowhead, no Angeles Crest forest.

Even if you could go to locations nearby, the things that brought you there couldn't happen. Think of the balloon festival in Alburquerque, with mass transit as the only method of transportation there's no way to get the balloons there or retrieve them. The Native American tribal festival in Arizona can't happen. No rodeos or fairs either.

Basically, your idea sucks because it doesn't work. That you can't see that only shows that your ability to think is limited to the propaganda you've been fed.

Cars are great as rural transportation. The problem is when car owners insist that cities should be built to accommodate them.

 

[phrodeau]

Maglev trains can manage a 10% grade, and can also transport passenger’s bicycles.

Nearly every tourist destination in Europe is accessible by train.