AwkwardMD and Omenainen Review Thread

[Omenainen]

With regard to the Fairy godmother narrator, I was hoping to follow the arc of the Cinderella 2015 Disney movie where the narrator is the Fairy Godmother who basically does the same almost 3rd person narration throughout, and makes a brief appearance at the end with magic. I was hoping to avoid the magic, but keep the narrator and assume everyone was familiar with both the pre-story and Fairy godmother so no introductions were needed.

I’m assuming the Fairy Godmother was introduced as it was in the movie because they would make the brief appearance at the end. Because without the foreshadowing it would’ve been a lot like “and then I woke up and it was all a dream!” type of solution, which sucks.

I kind of wanted an over the top punishment that would end up with the sisters getting the opposite of Cinderella. Whereas, Cinderella emerges more powerful and more respected, they end up humiliated and degraded. In addition, figging and caning would have been a not uncommon punishment for people low on the social ladder (such as servants) at the time.

It is true that in fairytales the baddies often get their dues in a very gruesome way. The difference is that they actually do something evil first. Like the original two half-sisters, who had a lifetime of bullying and neglect and abuse to their names. These two ladies didn’t do anything but point out a law that had been forgotten. No matter how petty the intent, I don’t see that demanding such a punishment.

With regard to why this examination would be considered humiliating and degrading, the setting is in 17-18th century Western (Catholic) Europe. The church and society would have emphasized and tried to drill into women from an early age that they should keep their body covered. Though this story is set a later in time, this is the same society that gave us the story of Godiva, where it is assumed that riding naked through town was enough of a humiliation that it would keep Godiva from pursuing her goal of helping the town's people by reducing their exorbitant taxes. Today, it would seem like a no-brainer - ride through town naked, on horseback, no cameras, no touching, only visible to each person for maybe a few seconds, etc and achieve a huge improvement in social justice. However, back then, it seemed like something that was a big enough that it was thought that Godiva would just forget about her quest for justice to avoid doing that.

So with that mentality, I wanted something that would have shocked the observer of the time. A woman who turns what everyone imagined as a humiliating and diminishing experience into something that while embarrassing for her and out of her comfort zone, reveals her iron will. Where everyone expects her to be passive and grudgingly obedient, she is active and commanding.

This is actually a really good example of the difficulty of fan fiction. You had a set of assumptions on which you built the story. I, as a reader, did not think about the 2015 Disney film, which I haven’t seen, nor did I think about 17-18th century European ideas of modesty. I thought about the Cinderella story such as I know it, and obviously my assumptions are not the same as yours.

So, when you write based on what is your interpretation of a story, it’s inevitable that people will other interpretations will say “that’s not how it goes!” or “they wouldn’t do that!” or some such. Some are so attached to their interpretations that they will even argue with the author of the original piece, if the sequel doesn’t align with the their expectations. When you write your own world, you have to establish everything that needs to be established, but at least it is all in the story which will then stand or fall on its own.

I do want to share with you one (I am sure of many) of my weaknesses as an author and ask for any advice.

You have noticed that all my stories have a narrator and are not in the third person. For me, I struggle with a third person narrator, likely because of the paradox of choice. When I pick a narrator, I constrain myself to what they see, feel, hear, or know. The Fairy Godmother is the closest I have come to an all-knowing narrator as presumably she can observe unseen anywhere she wants. With third person narration, I have to decide what I know and what I reveal when to the reader, and it feels weird to me.

I don’t really understand the problem, but one thing that comes to mind is basic writing exercises. I did Tim Clare’s “100 days writing challenge” a while back, and a part of it was to write a scene, and then rewrite it using different tenses, point of views, styles etc. You could try that with narrating styles. No need to write a whole entire story to try how something feels.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Omenainen,

Thank you so much for your review. I appreciate your feedback and the encouragement to try new things.

With regard to the Fairy godmother narrator, I was hoping to follow the arc of the Cinderella 2015 Disney movie where the narrator is the Fairy Godmother who basically does the same almost 3rd person narration throughout, and makes a brief appearance at the end with magic. I was hoping to avoid the magic, but keep the narrator and assume everyone was familiar with both the pre-story and Fairy godmother so no introductions were needed.

Once upon a time, there were two ladies who moved in together. One of them noticed that whenever her partner made a roast, she'd cut the ends off the meat before putting it in the oven. So she asked her partner why.

"I dunno. It's just what my mum always did, and I learned from her."

So next time they're over at her mum's place, they ask her about the roast, and she says, "To tell the truth, I don't know either! I learned it from your grandma, that's how she always did it."

So next time they're visiting granny in her nursing home, they ask her, and she says, "oh yes, we had such a tiny oven, and I always had to cut the ends off the roast to make it fit".

The point of this anecdote is that although you can learn a lot from storytelling in other media, it's really important to think about why those media have the conventions they do, and whether they're going to be useful in prose.

As far as I can tell, the main reason a film will use a narrator is because it needs to convey a big chunk of information that isn't convenient for cinematic storytelling. Something like "It is the year 1324 and three great powers vie for mastery of the Kingdom of Fnarbulax, and they are..." is tricky to do on screen without getting bogged down, and a narrator can get you through it in ten seconds without blowing the budget.

In prose, though, you, can just... write it. It's unusual to have a narrator who doesn't play an active part in the story.

With regard to why this examination would be considered humiliating and degrading, the setting is in 17-18th century Western (Catholic) Europe. The church and society would have emphasized and tried to drill into women from an early age that they should keep their body covered.

Though this story is set a later in time, this is the same society that gave us the story of Godiva,

Is it, though? The 17th century is closer to us than it is to Godiva (11th century England, myth apparently established around the 13th), and historical attitudes to nudity aren't homogenous. Elizabeth 1 (mostly 17th century) and Queen Consort Henrietta Maria (mid-17th) were both comfortable showing up to court events with their breasts fully exposed.

For Elizabeth, far from being sexually shameful, that seems to have been taken as a way of advertising her virtue. For other noble women it was a way of boasting that they could afford a wet nurse.

 

[b7ffh1]

But even Elizabeth would have been mortified if someone saw an exposed bit of ankle or knee.

Although there were some differences about specifically which parts may be exposed, it was pretty agreed that a woman should be mostly covered, and female modesty in general was pretty highly valued.

However, there are very good points that fan fiction and trying to fit into an existing story world brings with it a lot of implicit assumptions.

 

[Bramblethorn]

But even Elizabeth would have been mortified if someone saw an exposed bit of ankle or knee.

This Elizabeth?

https://images.ntpl.org.uk/hppa-zooms/00000000694/cms_pcf_1129128.bro

https://www.epochs-of-fashion.com/the-epochs/tudor-elizabethan-era/

"Queen Elizabeth I was proud of her small and slender feet and wore her skirts only ankle-long so everybody could admire them, but also (probably) Lucy, Countess of Bedford [ca. 1581-1627] reveals her ankles."

Ankles not quite visible from that angle, but presumably would've been when walking around. There are several similar portraits of QEI around, and this one of probably-Lucy.

No doubt Elizabeth drew the line somewhere, but I think this conversation illustrates that not everybody has the same ideas about historical norms.

 

[AwkwardMD]

@Djmac1031
Link

There are some things I could pick on, but I want to focus on the big thing. The one big flaw.

This story is very contrived. What we’re talking about is the difference between something that develops organically and something that is made so by you, the writer, to make something else happen. You mentioned that this story was well received, and I do not doubt that at all. I’m sure there are a lot of readers who would want to self-insert to be on the receiving end of the way Chloe grows feels for Nick. We all want to have someone see the real us underneath the stuff we don’t like about ourselves. For the purposes of growth, however, I think it’s important to look past this story being well received, because (I think) that is a function of audiences voting with their orgasm. So, if we start with the assumption that you got here to this thread for the purposes of learning something, then let’s learn together.

Fiction is a framework for any number of things that aren’t technically organic. Lightsabers are not organic. They don’t really exist, and will probably never exist, but fiction allows you to let the audience make certain leaps, assume certain starting points, to let something that is patently unrealistic unfold organically. In Star Wars, the existence of a lightsaber is talked about, and shown, before the full range of abilities are displayed. Lightsabers are just swords, really, but also energy. In a world with guns, swords are not generally very useful.

Parallel to the introduction of lightsabers are conversations about the Force. It does different things. It has different properties, but someone who can use both is able to use a lightsaber in a way that allows the user to compete, in the realm of combat, with someone who uses a gun.

In modern times, nobody is running around using a sword as a primary weapon, because they can’t compete with guns. Guns are too efficient at range. You would be shot before you could get close enough to make effective use of a sword. In Star Wars, there unfolds a scenario where swords are viable, and it does that with the setup and execution of its storytelling. These things are interwoven with the larger story being told about a kid from nowhere who is more special than anyone else realizes. That setup, the little details, those are integral.

Why is Nick stuck in a liminal space? I don’t know.*
Why is Nick naked? I don’t know.*
Why is Chloe naked? I don’t know.*
Why do the aliens answer some questions and not others? I don’t know.*
Why is Chloe screaming all the time? I don’t know.*
What does compatible mean? I don’t know.*
If they are compatible, then why do they need space magic to be made compatible first? I don’t know.*

*I do know, actually.

Very often, with fiction that is very thin on setup, the meaning can be inferred; it’s because you, the author, wanted it that way. You, the author, wanted to write a breeding story featuring a girl half your age. The story eschews the things that don’t matter (setting, reasons, the mechanics of transporting humans into space) and focuses on the things that do matter (to you).

“If I could just get the girl of my dreams to see me for who I really am I’m sure she would see past my age, and the slow accumulation of things that time has done to my body. If I could just trap her for a little while, in a way that wasn’t kidnap-y or rape-y, I’m sure she would come to see me for the really good guy that I am.”

That I can recall, there is nothing in The White Room that doesn’t directly serve this mission statement. There is no wider story being told. There is the above, and there are the contrivances put in place to make this happen. It is an extremely straight line from beginning to end, with no detours or dead ends. It does not ask any questions deeper than “Will they/won’t they?”

Contrivances are the difference between Star Wars and Star Crash, a 1978 space opera B movie. From the Wikipedia:

Marjoe Gortner as Akton, Stella's loyal sidekick, human in appearance but also endowed with considerable mystical powers (including the power to restore people to life). Nothing is truly explained about his nature or his origins. He fights with a laser sword similar to a Star Wars lightsaber.

When Akton restores people to life, he does it because the writers want those characters to still show up in the story and have agency (as compared to the Star Wars Force ghosts), but they also want the dramatic tension of a character death. The lack of explanation and setup, the nonsense of “Ah ha, I was dead but now I’m fine!” reveals the real story.

“I want to make my own Star Wars because I heard Star Wars was cheap to make but earned a lot of money.”

It isn’t trying to do anything interesting or new on its own. It is a naked cash grab. Putting effort into it would take time, and time is expensive. That would reduce ROI.

The White Room reads like a B movie where the writer is also the director and the star of the film. I know that the film industry is not a 1:1 comparison to erotic fiction, but there are enough similarities.

***

At the end, I want to make sure it’s very clear that if you want to write a breeding fantasy, you do you. Go off and find the girl of your dreams, king. It’s not a fantasy I can really understand (a breeding fantasy is fundamentally different from a fantasy of being bred), but that’s not a bad thing. It is what it is.

Similarly, the B movie is its own thing. PrevertOne and NoJo (The villain is the leader of a cult, but also the cult members are bee people!!) thrive on B movie vibes, and good for them. They know what they’re doing and they’re proud of their work, as they should be. The difference is that PrevertOne and NoJo are doing what they do with intent, and I think you got here without the same mindfulness and purpose.

***

That’s the big thing. It was everywhere. I wanted to talk about how the consent in the story was good, except that the consent was undermined by them being brainwashed, sorta-maybe, which circles back around to the contrived situation they found themselves in. With brainwashing in the picture, what does consent even look like? I liked the descriptiveness. I liked the dialog. It was very well written.

Perhaps the problem is being magnified by the length. If this had been 3k words, and it was just putting two people in a room so they could have sex, we would accept that there were no answers to the questions because it just isn’t that kind of story. The sex was pretty great outside of the context you welded into place around it. Instead, you kept them together long enough for them to realize they were soulmates, for Nick to propose, and for Chloe to accept, and for her ovulation cycle to work its way around to peak fertility.

Less is more.

 

[Djmac1031]

So, if we start with the assumption that you got here to this thread for the purposes of learning something, then let’s learn together

Thank you for your honest and candid review.

You've definitely given me some food for thought.

When I finished The White Room, I knew I left a lot of things unanswered. Because, frankly, I didn't have those answers.

I did eventually write a sequel where I do answer many of them.

I'm not going to ask you to read it, nor do I expect you to.

And I know what your reply would be anyway: "The original story should stand or fall on it's own merits."

Personally i don't see it as a "breeding" story although, in retrospect, I can understand how it can be seen as such.

I saw it more as a story about what happens between people if you strip away their fears and insecurities.

But I'm fully aware I'm not an expert story teller. So perhaps my inexperience kept that from coming through in a stronger way.

Things to work on, goals to strive for.

I appreciate the time you took to both read and review my story.

 

[Omenainen]

Personally i don't see it as a "breeding" story although, in retrospect, I can understand how it can be seen as such.

You wrote a story where aliens (?) kidnap a male and a female, keep them in captivity for the sole purpose of breeding them, and use lines like “I think I’m ovulating!” and didn’t consider it a breeding story?



Having a bit more self awareness might help you reach your audience (even) better. Like, if you had included a tag for breeding, those who are drawn to the kink would find it and give you even better scores.

 

[Djmac1031]

You wrote a story where aliens (?) kidnap a male and a female, keep them in captivity for the sole purpose of breeding them, and use lines like “I think I’m ovulating!” and didn’t consider it a breeding story?



Having a bit more self awareness might help you reach your audience (even) better. Like, if you had included a tag for breeding, those who are drawn to the kink would find it and give you even better scores.

In fairness, I'd only written 5 other stories before that one, some multi chaptered but continuing the concept of course.

So I guess I never thought of it .

Like I said, here to learn.

 

[Omenainen]

In fairness, I'd only written 5 other stories before that one, some multi chaptered but continuing the concept of course.

So I guess I never thought of it .

Like I said, here to learn.

I think it was @SimonDoom who instructed to at first write the story you want to write, and then come up with the most alluring title, blurb and tags you can possibly think of as an advertisement so that the readers will find it. I think this is great advice.

It pays to know the names to your kinks, or well, basically all the kinks, so that if you include elements of them in your story you can then use the correct tag. Breeding kink isn’t my kink, but I seriously think this story could have been alluring to those who do find it arousing.

So now that you’ve been here longer, and have been exposed to more depravity, bear that in mind

 

[SimonDoom]

I think it was @SimonDoom who instructed to at first write the story you want to write, and then come up with the most alluring title, blurb and tags you can possibly think of as an advertisement so that the readers will find it. I think this is great advice.

It pays to know the names to your kinks, or well, basically all the kinks, so that if you include elements of them in your story you can then use the correct tag. Breeding kink isn’t my kink, but I seriously think this story could have been alluring to those who do find it arousing.

So now that you’ve been here longer, and have been exposed to more depravity, bear that in mind

That's correct! That's my philosophy. The text of the story is your art. The rest is marketing. Market well so your story reaches the broadest possible audience of appreciative readers.

 

[Djmac1031]

I think it was @SimonDoom who instructed to at first write the story you want to write, and then come up with the most alluring title, blurb and tags you can possibly think of as an advertisement so that the readers will find it. I think this is great advice.

Agreed. I did write the story i wanted to write, although as I got into it i did realize I simply wasn't going to answer every question I'd raised.

I saw the unanswered questions as a "mystery" that let readers fill in gaps with their imagination.

Obviously you guys didn't quite see it that way. And I get it.

For better or worse, (I get the feeling you'd say worse) I'm a Seat Of My Pants writer.

So I didn't actually have the ending PLANNED. Which is maybe why I never made the "breeding" connection. Although in retrospect I perhaps did subliminally with the "ovulating" line.

I am TRYING now to plot an ending BEFORE I delve too deep into a story, although I still find I often still need to just write and see what direction it takes me and find an ending from there.

Anyway, title: I knew The White Room isn't exactly an eye catcher title. But it was the only one I felt worked.

I guess it was my description that drew readers in.

 

[Omenainen]

@Erozetta
The Bully’s Birthday

The good stuff first: you write beautifully, the sex you write is hot, and you have an audience who loves you. All of this is excellent and a solid base to build on.

When reading The Bully’s Birthday, I had trouble understanding what the story was about. Not on the level of “well there’s this girl and then she goes to this party”, but what it is about. I once stumbled upon a discussion over the purpose of short stories, and because I can’t for the death of me remember where that was, I’ll cite wikipedia because it states a similar sentiment (emphasis is mine):

A short story, also known as a nouvelle, is a piece of prose fiction that can be typically read in a single sitting and focuses on a self-contained incident or series of linked incidents, with the intent of evoking a single effect or mood.

I remember reading that and thinking, “but I want to do so much more than a single effect or mood!” This probably explains why many of mine aren’t really short stories, they’re long stories told in a shorter format So I definitely get where the urge to have everything in your story comes from.

Stories that could have been written from the elements of this story (and I’m sure this is not an exhaustive list):

• a story of overcoming bullying, for example by succeeding in something the bullies didn’t
• a story about overcoming bullying by deriving meaning from other aspects of life and not letting the baddies get the better of you
• a story of how a bully is not just a bully, because nobody is just a single thing and people act differently in different contexts
• a story about a bully growing up and seeing the error of their way
• a story of losing one’s virginity
• a story about having anonymous sex via the use of a costume
• a revenge story about seducing someone’s partner just to spite them
• a story about how sweet it would be to get “the bad guy” and find out he’s really a sweetheart

In my opinion, when you tried to write so many themes into the same story, you missed the mark on all of them.

First time stories are usually centered on the experience of the first time, here it felt like an afterthought: “oh right, this was supposed to be her first time, well I’ll make it hurt a little.”

The assumption that in a small, intimate party people wouldn’t recognize someone they interact with daily, especially when you established that this girl is short and muscular, is not believable to me, regardless of her costume. Also why seeing this girl in a costume where “he cannot recognize her” would make the guy realize he’s very drawn to the girl in normal circumstances seems counterintuitive to me.

The way the girl is supposedly bullied by these people, but would take an immense risk of ridicule by crashing the party with everything to lose and not much to gain, is dubious.

The bully has had a change of heart apropos of nothing, because nothing has happened and no time has passed. Then again, the bully doesn’t act like a bully, and the victim doesn’t act like a victim, so although the term “bully” is used even in the title, that dynamic isn’t actually present anywhere in the story. You tell us that is the case, but nothing you show us supports the claim.

This girl is allegedly so self assured that she’s sure everyone will admire her and be drawn to her sexiness, which makes her seem very calculative and decisive, yet her plan doesn’t include having clothes for when she leaves the party, which makes her seem incompetent and impulsive.

The plot has holes and inconsistencies. For example, there is no mention of where she is dyeing her hair and getting into the costume so I assumed it was her home, but then she cannot go back there when she leaves the party (why?). Then, later, there’s mention of “she called her parents to tell she wouldn’t be home” after she’s already been gone for a night with no explanation. They go bareback at first, and then use condoms later for no apparent reason.

One thing I was troubled by was how the guy had very little agency. At first, he is bullying people because The Evil Bitch Girlfriend tells him to, and at the end of the story he is doing exactly what the protagonist tells him to. Does he have no will of his own?

I don’t know what your writing process is like. I’m a pantser, and sometimes after writing something I lean back and go, now what is this shit? I set out to write about X but I see I’ve now written about Y instead. This is okay, and being conscious about it, I can then edit the story to go more in the direction I wanted, or change my approach and embrace the new theme. The main thing is to be consistent, and true to the theme the story ends up having.

I think that in its heart of hearts, this story is a revenge story against the bully girl. You shied away from that concept, and from having the protagonist do something as evil as seducing someone’s partner for revenge, and so you made the bully couple having split up just before, but I think that is the backbone that this story should have been built around. You might have included a scene on how despicable this bitch is to flesh her out more, and then really rub in her face how the protagonist snatches her lame ass boyfriend so easily and then doesn’t even want him (because who wants a boy that’s so spineless he just always does what others tell him to?) That might not have been a first time story, and that might not have been a “nobody knows me in my costume” story, and that might not have had the romantic-ish ending this story had, but it would’ve been a more powerful and less conflicted story.

Obviously, you have plenty of readers who have enjoyed the story immensely and who had no trouble with characterization and plot, on the contrary, they were quite enchanted by it, so take this with a grain of salt. You write very well, and being more conscious of what is the gist of your story, what it is you’re writing about, would help you on your way to greatness.

 

[Omenainen]

For better or worse, (I get the feeling you'd say worse) I'm a Seat Of My Pants writer.

So I didn't actually have the ending PLANNED. Which is maybe why I never made the "breeding" connection. Although in retrospect I perhaps did subliminally with the "ovulating" line.

I am TRYING now to plot an ending BEFORE I delve too deep into a story, although I still find I often still need to just write and see what direction it takes me and find an ending from there.

I am a pantser too, so I totally get it. I don’t think you need to know where you’re going when you start writing, I know I certainly don’t. The beauty of this art form is that when we’ve written the story, and found out what it is about, we can add all sorts of foreshadowing on the editing rounds and make ourselves look really clever. We can make it look like we knew what we were doing all along It’s not like this is improvising in front of a live audience.

 

[Djmac1031]

The beauty of this art form is that when we’ve written the story, and found out what it is about, we can add all sorts of foreshadowing on the editing rounds and make ourselves look really clever

Or, in my case, I can stew on it for over a year before finally writing a sequel that answers a lot of questions left hanging lol.

 

[joy_of_cooking]

Hey, would love to hear your thoughts on my stories. I have three chapters up so far, adding up to ~15k words / 6 pages:

https://literotica.com/s/clothes-make-the-masochist
https://literotica.com/s/learning-to-wear-the-heels-he-likes
https://literotica.com/s/asked-and-answered

A couple of specific questions, which I'd prefer you read after reading the stories because I'm going to ask if you noticed things. Of course, happy to hear anything else you have to say.

1. How is the pacing?
2. Do the characters seem plausible? There's not that much characterization yet, but I worry that the MMC will seem too level-headed and self-assured, and the FMC will seem too implausible a combination of innocent and skillful.
3. Am I adequately foreshadowing this couple's evolution from a fetishist and his service top to (in future chapters) a sadist and her service bottom?
4. "Asked and Answered" contains the first hint that the main characters are not white. I'm curious if you caught it (since I think you are white). If so, does it seem forced? Can you guess what they're supposed to be?

 

[Yellowbirdy]

You do an amazing thorough review! If I ever write a story maybe you will read it!

 

[AwkwardMD]

Link
@joy_of_cooking

First, let’s address the questions

1) How is the pacing?

Fine-ish. If taken together as a single work, it’s… okay. Individually, they are too short to really qualify as having pacing. Some criteria just don’t apply to all levels of storytelling.

In the early 90’s, Microsoft approached Brian Eno to compose a piece of music for Windows 95. Eno became obsessed with the idea of micro-music. Tiny pieces of music that convey emotions within seconds. How do I express grand in a few seconds? What Eno made is undoubtedly music, but in a way that defies most definitions of what counts as music. It has no movements, no beat, no rhythm, and you certainly can’t dance to it, but it is eminently identifiable. If you play those six seconds of piano in a crowded room, heads with gray hair will swivel in recognition.

Just because pacing isn’t a super applicable criteria doesn’t mean that it’s paced badly. Lots of pwp doesn’t.

2) Do the characters seem plausible?

Maybe?*

3) Am I adequately forecasting the shift in their roles?

Maybe?*

4) "Asked and Answered" contains the first hint that the main characters are not white. I'm curious if you caught it (since I think you are white). If so, does it seem forced? Can you guess what they're supposed to be?

I think it’s the part about not liking racial slurs, which I took to mean that they’re black or brown. No, it wasn’t forced. Some readers do not like to be surprised with this type of detail, but those people are probably racists. It’s perfectly okay to dribble out personal details about characters as a story progresses, even if they change the way the reader was imagining those characters.

***

Except, it isn’t really pwp, and the characters are barely characters, and it’s hard for non-characters to have roles. These people could be anyone, in which case these kinks could be entirely appropriate and entirely inappropriate. They are Schroedinger’s Characters.

It’s not pwp (porn without plot). Judging by the way you keep expanding it, you are trying to tell a story, but the story doesn’t really stick. In other reviews, I’ve used a quote from Nic Pizzolatto:

The only place anything ever comes alive is in character.

It’s not that they’re badly written, but there’s just not that much there. He’s male, she’s female, and… they’re trying to conceive. They have kinks, sure, but their kinks don’t say anything about them in isolation.

You’re in a no man’s land of details. It’s too many to be pure stroke material, but not enough to qualify as a whole story (and by ‘whole story’, I mean the kind of story that can be taken apart and dissected, critiqued, and given feedback on). It’s hard to say whether it feels like you successfully portrayed this guy as a masochist, or a foot fetishist, when we know absolutely nothing about him.

I understand the creative decision to leave them nameless, for maximum reader self-insertion, but that is a choice that serves the reader experience at the expense of telling a better story.

That being said, what is the point of telling a story except to get something across to the reader? There’s no shame in writing porn without plot, faceless orgies, and what have you. Writing a story for the reader is a perfectly admirable end all on its own.

***

Generally speaking, the purpose of this thread is to help writers improve at writing complex, character-driven story, but that is not the only way to write a good story. Not a single piece of advice we’ve given, in all 30-ish pages of reviews and feedback, could be applied to a 750 word story, and yet Lit is full of entirely successful 750 word stories. They get the job done in spite of all our theories and highfalutin ideas. I believe in our methods, and use them in my own writing, but it’s not the only way of doing things.

Short story long, don’t write to please us. Your readers clearly like what you’re doing. The foot fetish readership you’ve found is clearly pleased.

 

[joy_of_cooking]

You’re in a no man’s land of details. It’s too many to be pure stroke material, but not enough to qualify as a whole story

Yes, and I wonder if that's part of why my ratings have declined. "Clothes Make the Masochist" was the most stroke-like and also the highest rated. I think I'm moving away from the stroke material but not quite making it all the way into story territory.

(I know, I know, the ratings are fickle and it's best not to think about them too much. But those red H's give me the warm fuzzies!)

I think it’s the part about not liking racial slurs, which I took to mean that they’re black or brown.

Interesting! Yes, that was a hint, although not the earliest and I didn't intend them to be black or brown. The first hint was meant to be earlier when she starts talking about dressing up instant noodles with a poached egg, scallions, sesame oil, etc. In my experience, it's much more common among East Asian people to add stuff other than the provided seasoning packets. The plan is to make all the food references Chinese or Chinese-American.

 

[alohadave]

Hi, I have my latest story and I'd like some feedback, if I may.

https://literotica.com/s/personal-photographer

It's my longest finished story to date, and I feel like I'm floundering. I don't know if what I'm writing is any good from a story or characterization perspective. I feel like I have minimal characterization and what story I do have is to tie the sex scenes together.

This story is doing well, I suspect because of the category, and there are some good comments that I feel raise valid points.

Anything you see, please don't hold back. I'd prefer to know where to focus my attention on improving and what works or doesn't work.

Thank you for your time.

 

[Omenainen]

Link
@alohadave

Okay, buckle up, because this will be a rough ride. I hope you meant it when you said “don’t hold back”

It's my longest finished story to date, and I feel like I'm floundering. I don't know if what I'm writing is any good from a story or characterization perspective. I feel like I have minimal characterization and what story I do have is to tie the sex scenes together.

There are stories with plots and character development, and there are stories with “minimal characterization and just enough story to tie the sex scenes together”, and both are valid subgenres. It’s not mandatory to develop characterization. If it’s not something that comes easily or something that interests you, you can just focus on the strokers. It’s completely allowed.

Now, if you do want to have plots and character development, then you’re right, you’re struggling with both. Your writing is technically solid, except for occasional slipping to the present tense, but this story reads like a badly done “film to book” narration of a B-grade porn flick.

You have no characterization. All of these characters sound the same, and none of them has any depth. You give them labels like “big brother” and “little sister” but those are just post-it notes stuck on cardboard cut-outs. They aren’t people. You don’t tell us anything about any of them, except that of course the women are porn star hot but the guy is moderately only “above average”, because we do want to be realistic, don’t we, except that the most plot-mandated character is a hot blonde named Barbie . (Okay, “Barbi” and not “Barbie”, though you even spelled it “Barbie” once.)

The thing that disturbs me the most is that you do realize you’ve written a rape, don’t you? Kelsi rapes Kevin. This is a rape story. Would you have written a story where a young woman is tied up and blindfolded, having sex with who she thinks is her fuckbuddy, only to find out it’s her grandfather instead? Would that be hot? Would it be hot, if the grandpa was fit and had a big dick? A rape is a rape, and I don’t think it works as a plot element for fun, low-investment incest romp. Definitely didn’t work for me here. Apparently incest trumps non-con as a category, but I think this type of story would better be stripped of the relative status and placed in non-con.

You couldn’t figure out how to get little sis in a position to rape her brother, so you had to bring in Barbie. She has no other function than to enable the rape. Why would she do that? If she’s so sexy and perfect, why isn’t she out there fucking a Ken or two, why is she doing this?

Really think about this from Barbi’s perspective. Why is she doing… this?

Why would Kelsi want to rape her brother? You give us tropes like “after their parents died he had to take care of her”, but it has no depth. Also, he “takes care of her”, but doesn’t know how she makes a living. It’s all very hollow.

As a POV character Kevin comes closest to being a person, but he’s inconsistent. He originally resists the idea of taking photos, and is acting kind of shy and nervous with Barbie stripping for him and masturbating in front of him, but then he’s immediately okay to fuck on live feed in front of Barbie’s gazillions of fans, with no performance anxiety, and doesn’t seem to have any opinions about being tied up and used for another online sex session. He is appalled at the thought of seeing his sister’s naked breasts, but is taking close-ups of her pussy a few minutes later, and once he’s come inside of her he’s immediately converted and is like “okay, incest, whatever, why not”, with no thinking time, with no coming to grips of the situation, with no reason whatsoever except maybe lil’ sis is hot.

The dialogue is inorganic and flat. I don’t know if you’ve been reading advice like “don’t use dialog tags” and are trying to follow it literally, but using “bro” or “sis” or their proper names in every sentence is not a good substitute. People don’t talk like that. Besides, mixing character actions with dialog helps build character, and when you don’t do it, you miss out on those opportunities. A lot of what we say to each other, face to face, is expressed through body language, inflection, expression, tone, and subconscious tics we’re not even aware of like blushing. By not including these things, you are either implying a flat read of the text (like a Text-to-Speech bot would do) or are letting the reader do a lot of the heavy lifting with their own imagination… and at that point they could just imagine the whole scene on their own. What do they need you for?

For example, the opening scene. The siblings are having lunch, but that isn’t obvious until at the end of the scene, and just as well, because it isn’t relevant either. They don’t say anything that tells anything about their characters, it’s an empty interaction. You could’ve skipped this entirely by starting the next section with “I couldn’t believe what my little sister, Kelsi, had talked me into, but here I was, preparing to take sexy pictures of her best friend.” If you wanted to have the lunch scene, you could have embedded body language, insight into their relationship, tell us they went for lunch every Tuesday to catch up because they were so close, tell us she always orders steak when he’s buying, whatever. Something, anything, to tell us who they are and why we should care who they fuck.

The photo shoot scenes read like you’re trying really hard to convince the reader of how hot this is. The dialog is purely dirty talk, which makes little sense in the context of taking photographs. Your bio implies you do photography on your own, so I know you know that on a shoot the dialog is more perfunctory, directional. There could have been a whole layer to Kevin’s approach where he finally starts getting into it, and his directions are more explicitly sexual (“Shoulders back, push your tits out”), but instead Barbi is doing all the work and Kevin is merely along for the ride. Kevin is the professional here! He should be doing that!

This story fits neatly into a pattern we’ve seen across the reviews we’ve done that I’m now calling “Neutral Guy Has Things Happen To Him,” and it’s so common that I’m surprised I never picked up on it before. Kevin has no likes, no dislikes, no friends, no exes, no professional failures, no triumphs, no character, no color, and no texture. He is almost entirely passive as two women make sex at him, and by the end he’s okay with it happening. We’ve easily been asked to review a dozen stories that fit this criteria/trope.

I think that if you do want to improve, one writing exercise could be to take this same story and tell it again from Kelsi’s or Barbie’s POV. Now that you already know what happens, you can focus on the characterization. Figure out what motivation each of these characters have for doing what they’re doing, and try to present it to the reader. Figure out who they are, their personalities, and try to present that to the reader. You’ve written the lines, now write between the lines.

 

[alohadave]

First of all, thank you for taking the time to do this. I appreciate it. I wanted you to tear into it, and you did that.

There are stories with plots and character development, and there are stories with “minimal characterization and just enough story to tie the sex scenes together”, and both are valid subgenres. It’s not mandatory to develop characterization. If it’s not something that comes easily or something that interests you, you can just focus on the strokers. It’s completely allowed.

All of my previous stories have been strokers, with no characterization. I don't have a problem writing them, but it's not what I really want to be writing.

Now, if you do want to have plots and character development, then you’re right, you’re struggling with both. Your writing is technically solid, except for occasional slipping to the present tense, but this story reads like a badly done “film to book” narration of a B-grade porn flick.

I agree about the narration. My stories feel to me like I'm listing a sequence of events, rather than telling a story and I don't know how to fix that.

You have no characterization. All of these characters sound the same, and none of them has any depth. You give them labels like “big brother” and “little sister” but those are just post-it notes stuck on cardboard cut-outs. They aren’t people. You don’t tell us anything about any of them, except that of course the women are porn star hot but the guy is moderately only “above average”, because we do want to be realistic, don’t we, except that the most plot-mandated character is a hot blonde named Barbie . (Okay, “Barbi” and not “Barbie”, though you even spelled it “Barbie” once.)

I fucked up naming her Barbi, since I basically just wrote a trope. Though changing her name wouldn't have fixed anything else about her.

The thing that disturbs me the most is that you do realize you’ve written a rape, don’t you? Kelsi rapes Kevin. This is a rape story. Would you have written a story where a young woman is tied up and blindfolded, having sex with who she thinks is her fuckbuddy, only to find out it’s her grandfather instead? Would that be hot? Would it be hot, if the grandpa was fit and had a big dick? A rape is a rape, and I don’t think it works as a plot element for fun, low-investment incest romp. Definitely didn’t work for me here. Apparently incest trumps non-con as a category, but I think this type of story would better be stripped of the relative status and placed in non-con.

I see that, and it's not what I was going for.

You couldn’t figure out how to get little sis in a position to rape her brother, so you had to bring in Barbie. She has no other function than to enable the rape. Why would she do that? If she’s so sexy and perfect, why isn’t she out there fucking a Ken or two, why is she doing this?

Really think about this from Barbi’s perspective. Why is she doing… this?

You're right, Barbi has no reason to do any of this with him.

The dialogue is inorganic and flat. I don’t know if you’ve been reading advice like “don’t use dialog tags” and are trying to follow it literally, but using “bro” or “sis” or their proper names in every sentence is not a good substitute. People don’t talk like that. Besides, mixing character actions with dialog helps build character, and when you don’t do it, you miss out on those opportunities. A lot of what we say to each other, face to face, is expressed through body language, inflection, expression, tone, and subconscious tics we’re not even aware of like blushing. By not including these things, you are either implying a flat read of the text (like a Text-to-Speech bot would do) or are letting the reader do a lot of the heavy lifting with their own imagination… and at that point they could just imagine the whole scene on their own. What do they need you for?

I am aware that I do this with my dialogue with the back and forth, and it's something I'm working on. I thought that I was okay as far as the tags, and was keeping them straight as to who is talking, but I'll pay attention to that.

Kelsi calling him Bro when she spoke was meant to show some personality for her.

The photo shoot scenes read like you’re trying really hard to convince the reader of how hot this is. The dialog is purely dirty talk, which makes little sense in the context of taking photographs. Your bio implies you do photography on your own, so I know you know that on a shoot the dialog is more perfunctory, directional. There could have been a whole layer to Kevin’s approach where he finally starts getting into it, and his directions are more explicitly sexual (“Shoulders back, push your tits out”), but instead Barbi is doing all the work and Kevin is merely along for the ride. Kevin is the professional here! He should be doing that!

Maybe it got lost, but he wasn't experienced shooting models, so for that, I was going for a fish out of water type situation. I guess that the way I wrote it, any random person could have taken his place and performed similarly.

Barbi was teasing him with the dirty talk during the shoots.

This story fits neatly into a pattern we’ve seen across the reviews we’ve done that I’m now calling “Neutral Guy Has Things Happen To Him,” and it’s so common that I’m surprised I never picked up on it before. Kevin has no likes, no dislikes, no friends, no exes, no professional failures, no triumphs, no character, no color, and no texture. He is almost entirely passive as two women make sex at him, and by the end he’s okay with it happening. We’ve easily been asked to review a dozen stories that fit this criteria/trope.

Originally, Kevin didn't really like Barbi. He thought she was a bitch. He was doing this reluctantly, as a favor to Kelsi. It felt like he was whining constantly in his interactions with Barbi and I nerfed that.

And I went back and forth between even involving Kelsi. Originally she was just the reason that he was taking the pictures, but not a participant.

I think that if you do want to improve, one writing exercise could be to take this same story and tell it again from Kelsi’s or Barbie’s POV. Now that you already know what happens, you can focus on the characterization. Figure out what motivation each of these characters have for doing what they’re doing, and try to present it to the reader. Figure out who they are, their personalities, and try to present that to the reader. You’ve written the lines, now write between the lines.

Thank you, you've given me a lot to think about.

 

[NotWise]

I plead guilt to this.

This story fits neatly into a pattern we’ve seen across the reviews we’ve done that I’m now calling “Neutral Guy Has Things Happen To Him,” and it’s so common that I’m surprised I never picked up on it before. Kevin has no likes, no dislikes, no friends, no exes, no professional failures, no triumphs, no character, no color, and no texture. He is almost entirely passive as two women make sex at him, and by the end he’s okay with it happening. We’ve easily been asked to review a dozen stories that fit this criteria/trope.

Originally, Kevin didn't really like Barbi. He thought she was a bitch. He was doing this reluctantly, as a favor to Kelsi. It felt like he was whining constantly in his interactions with Barbi and I nerfed that.

It was hard for me to realize that my male POV characters weren't automatically understood by readers, but AMD pointed it out to me in her comments on an earlier story. The problem is even harder when writing in 1st person, and from their comment above, I guess I'm not the only guy with the issue.

Writing from a male POV, it's very easy to spend all your effort characterizing or describing the female characters. Problem is that readers won't really understand anything the POV character does or experiences that isn't common to the reader. It takes extra effort to build some character for the male POV character--especially in first person, where even describing him can be hard.

 

[AwkwardMD]

I agree about the narration. My stories feel to me like I'm listing a sequence of events, rather than telling a story and I don't know how to fix that.

This quote is a big opening, and I think that we can explore a little more here. Anything I try to define here is going to be arbitrary, it’s my definition and that’s not necessarily the definition, but bear with me.

I think that the difference between a sequence of events and a story is the arc. It’s the underlying things that are happening throughout, and there isn’t a lot underneath the surface of this story.


There is some idea of things progressing. At first he takes pictures, then it’s pictures with masturbating until orgasm, then it’s sex on the stream but it doesn’t manage to build the kind of raising tension required to feel like anything. If I may be pedantic, though, it isn’t so much progression as it is escalation. Things get bigger, and have more consequences. There is increasing severity, but that’s not the same as progress (in the context of writing).

Progress is working toward something, and you need to have goals for that. A destination, or wants, or needs.

 

[MediocreAuthor]

Alright, I got some positive and negative feed back on this story, but I suppose I'm ready to really put it through the ringer.

Eldritch Pact

Don't hold back, I suppose. I know every story has flaws.
Thank you.

 

[Djmac1031]

Link
@alohadave

Okay, buckle up, because this will be a rough ride. I hope you meant it when you said “don’t hold back”



There are stories with plots and character development, and there are stories with “minimal characterization and just enough story to tie the sex scenes together”, and both are valid subgenres. It’s not mandatory to develop characterization. If it’s not something that comes easily or something that interests you, you can just focus on the strokers. It’s completely allowed.

Now, if you do want to have plots and character development, then you’re right, you’re struggling with both. Your writing is technically solid, except for occasional slipping to the present tense, but this story reads like a badly done “film to book” narration of a B-grade porn flick.

You have no characterization. All of these characters sound the same, and none of them has any depth. You give them labels like “big brother” and “little sister” but those are just post-it notes stuck on cardboard cut-outs. They aren’t people. You don’t tell us anything about any of them, except that of course the women are porn star hot but the guy is moderately only “above average”, because we do want to be realistic, don’t we, except that the most plot-mandated character is a hot blonde named Barbie . (Okay, “Barbi” and not “Barbie”, though you even spelled it “Barbie” once.)

The thing that disturbs me the most is that you do realize you’ve written a rape, don’t you? Kelsi rapes Kevin. This is a rape story. Would you have written a story where a young woman is tied up and blindfolded, having sex with who she thinks is her fuckbuddy, only to find out it’s her grandfather instead? Would that be hot? Would it be hot, if the grandpa was fit and had a big dick? A rape is a rape, and I don’t think it works as a plot element for fun, low-investment incest romp. Definitely didn’t work for me here. Apparently incest trumps non-con as a category, but I think this type of story would better be stripped of the relative status and placed in non-con.

You couldn’t figure out how to get little sis in a position to rape her brother, so you had to bring in Barbie. She has no other function than to enable the rape. Why would she do that? If she’s so sexy and perfect, why isn’t she out there fucking a Ken or two, why is she doing this?

Really think about this from Barbi’s perspective. Why is she doing… this?

Why would Kelsi want to rape her brother? You give us tropes like “after their parents died he had to take care of her”, but it has no depth. Also, he “takes care of her”, but doesn’t know how she makes a living. It’s all very hollow.

As a POV character Kevin comes closest to being a person, but he’s inconsistent. He originally resists the idea of taking photos, and is acting kind of shy and nervous with Barbie stripping for him and masturbating in front of him, but then he’s immediately okay to fuck on live feed in front of Barbie’s gazillions of fans, with no performance anxiety, and doesn’t seem to have any opinions about being tied up and used for another online sex session. He is appalled at the thought of seeing his sister’s naked breasts, but is taking close-ups of her pussy a few minutes later, and once he’s come inside of her he’s immediately converted and is like “okay, incest, whatever, why not”, with no thinking time, with no coming to grips of the situation, with no reason whatsoever except maybe lil’ sis is hot.

The dialogue is inorganic and flat. I don’t know if you’ve been reading advice like “don’t use dialog tags” and are trying to follow it literally, but using “bro” or “sis” or their proper names in every sentence is not a good substitute. People don’t talk like that. Besides, mixing character actions with dialog helps build character, and when you don’t do it, you miss out on those opportunities. A lot of what we say to each other, face to face, is expressed through body language, inflection, expression, tone, and subconscious tics we’re not even aware of like blushing. By not including these things, you are either implying a flat read of the text (like a Text-to-Speech bot would do) or are letting the reader do a lot of the heavy lifting with their own imagination… and at that point they could just imagine the whole scene on their own. What do they need you for?

For example, the opening scene. The siblings are having lunch, but that isn’t obvious until at the end of the scene, and just as well, because it isn’t relevant either. They don’t say anything that tells anything about their characters, it’s an empty interaction. You could’ve skipped this entirely by starting the next section with “I couldn’t believe what my little sister, Kelsi, had talked me into, but here I was, preparing to take sexy pictures of her best friend.” If you wanted to have the lunch scene, you could have embedded body language, insight into their relationship, tell us they went for lunch every Tuesday to catch up because they were so close, tell us she always orders steak when he’s buying, whatever. Something, anything, to tell us who they are and why we should care who they fuck.

The photo shoot scenes read like you’re trying really hard to convince the reader of how hot this is. The dialog is purely dirty talk, which makes little sense in the context of taking photographs. Your bio implies you do photography on your own, so I know you know that on a shoot the dialog is more perfunctory, directional. There could have been a whole layer to Kevin’s approach where he finally starts getting into it, and his directions are more explicitly sexual (“Shoulders back, push your tits out”), but instead Barbi is doing all the work and Kevin is merely along for the ride. Kevin is the professional here! He should be doing that!

This story fits neatly into a pattern we’ve seen across the reviews we’ve done that I’m now calling “Neutral Guy Has Things Happen To Him,” and it’s so common that I’m surprised I never picked up on it before. Kevin has no likes, no dislikes, no friends, no exes, no professional failures, no triumphs, no character, no color, and no texture. He is almost entirely passive as two women make sex at him, and by the end he’s okay with it happening. We’ve easily been asked to review a dozen stories that fit this criteria/trope.

I think that if you do want to improve, one writing exercise could be to take this same story and tell it again from Kelsi’s or Barbie’s POV. Now that you already know what happens, you can focus on the characterization. Figure out what motivation each of these characters have for doing what they’re doing, and try to present it to the reader. Figure out who they are, their personalities, and try to present that to the reader. You’ve written the lines, now write between the lines.

I had my own conversation with @alohadave about this story because I saw many of the same issues.

My main advice was to start thinking of the characters as real people instead of merely porn caricatures.

We can write the most wild, implausible, improbable fantasy scenarios we want.

It's how the characters react to these outlandish situations that make it interesting.

In the story, Kevin shows up to take the pictures of Barbi.

Barbi immediately starts taking it beyond the supposed "professional" scenario originally pitched.

It's obvious in both words and actions she wants to fuck Kevin.

Why? We the reader are given no reason.

But given that scenario, Kevin doesn't make a move.

Why? She obviously wants something to happen. And we're given absolutely no reason why Kevin would object to having sex with her. He's not in a relationship with someone else, and neither is Barbi as far as we know.

So why doesn't he fuck her then?

Because the author decided that shouldn't happen til later.

Let's take the same premise and make the characters act more realistic.

Kevin shows up to take pictures.

1:Both Barbi and Kevin attempt to keep the shoot professional, but there's an unspoken sexual tension between them.

You then build on that tension and expand on it the next meeting.

2: Barbi is coming on heavy to Kevin as originally written. But Kevin has some past history with her that makes him reluctant to act on her advances.

3: Barbi again acts flirtatious and obvious, but when Kevin responds and tries to take things further she suddenly retreats.

Maybe she was intentionally winding him up for reasons that can be revealed later.

Or maybe she just got cold feet, not expecting him to respond.

All different options, but all create some tension and dynamics between them, something that can be explored and developed instead of simply taking a bunch of pics then on to Act Two.