LW Has Turned Into a Misogynist Wasteland

[Lifestyle66]

The moments after good sex are the moments where you build most of the emotional connection to someone. And thats a proven fact. Saying that its 'just sex' just doesnt work.

And of course it isnt an attempt to open the marriage but to put him in his place. Of course that a harsh assumption from me but in the end its the only outcome. Because he isnt allowed to do the same. Thats a play on the power dynamics of the relationship.

Okay. We've disagreed previously on emotional connections in these stories.

We each speak from our own experiences, and as such, our experiences are not all encompassing. And PROOF of sexual activities and intentions is very subjective. In my experience, MOST people only reluctantly discuss their true sexual experiences or desires, with many defaulting to regurgitating what they think is expected.

In my own real-life experiences, sex is NOT necessarily as you describe. After orgasm, I very quickly lose interest. And that emotional disconnect may last for an hour or two. I am fortunate in finding my current wife who feels the same. After she has "The Big One" (as she describes it), she'll actually say to me "Okay, I'm done. You can get off me now." Then she'll reach for the TV remote to find something to watch.

So, not everyone connects emotionally immediately after sex.

I try to write these different ways of looking at sex into my stories. In "The Real Gift: Her Fantasy", I explained the wife's motivations with:
*****
So, when Jan finally grabbed onto me, a clueless geek in our senior year, she felt like taking control of me (and later, any guy), almost as if making up for those years boys avoided her. She learned to flirt ... and later she reveled in using her new skill as a weapon against all men. She seemed particularly satisfied when she would tease me and have me begging her to finish, then reduce me to an empty husk, with my cock shrinking and empty. Her attitude was: "I got you! ... Now be a good boy and bring me a glass of wine."
*****

While not exactly how my wife and I met, the sentiment is her, in real life.

So, I tend to resist the judgmental urge to say, "That's NOT how people act!" I've been surprised too many times when finding people who DO act that way.

 

[Lifestyle66]

Yeah, that one was NUTS. Like, ease the poor guy into it, lady.

I'm working on a story right now that's about a woman who got away with cheating on her husband during the entirety of their marriage with hundreds of guys that starts with her approaching a woman in a bar saying, "You're going to get caught" as she sees her psyching herself up to go cheat on her husband. From there, it's going to be kind of an exploration of why she cheated and why the young woman doesn't want to go down that road. I expect it will make no one happy. Well, except me, specifically because of that.

I liked that story "Liberation, for Him or Her: Pt 01" because it's not automatically headed toward a hate fueled BTB ending. The author has a chance to build to a happy ending, it's merely a matter now to see how he gets there.

The judgment that she's exceptionally cruel is also something I didn't jump on, because in the 6.8K words, the author doesn't define their previous relationship and how they usually interact. I'm not the type to "read into it" and LOOK for "subtle" examples of things like unspoken misogyny, sexism, racism, etc. I try to take it more at face value with the words he's given us and go from there.

I actually thought the author was unique in his approach with the wife struggling with her cheating. And although she wanted to admit it to her husband, she didn't spring it on him face-to-face and out of the blue. "Hey, I've been cheating on you, but hear me out." IMO, THAT is cruel, hitting the husband out of the blue. At least with her video and e-mail heads-up, she gave her husband time to absorb it before confronting her. It would be the same as a friend or P.I. giving the husband evidence of his cheating wife. And as she said, she gave him all the evidence he would need to destroy her.

So, I considered this story to be different enough to start with a 5. I'll be more critical of where he goes with it in the future.

 

[NoTalentHack]

I liked that story "Liberation, for Him or Her: Pt 01" because it's not automatically headed toward a hate fueled BTB ending. The author has a chance to build to a happy ending, it's merely a matter now to see how he gets there.

The judgment that she's exceptionally cruel is also something I didn't jump on, because in the 6.8K words, the author doesn't define their previous relationship and how they usually interact. I'm not the type to "read into it" and LOOK for "subtle" examples of things like unspoken misogyny, sexism, racism, etc. I try to take it more at face value with the words he's given us and go from there.

I actually thought the author was unique in his approach with the wife struggling with her cheating. And although she wanted to admit it to her husband, she didn't spring it on him face-to-face and out of the blue. "Hey, I've been cheating on you, but hear me out." IMO, THAT is cruel, hitting the husband out of the blue. At least with her video and e-mail heads-up, she gave her husband time to absorb it before confronting her. It would be the same as a friend or P.I. giving the husband evidence of his cheating wife. And as she said, she gave him all the evidence he would need to destroy her.

So, I considered this story to be different enough to start with a 5. I'll be more critical of where he goes with it in the future.

Agree to disagree. If my wife sent me a video like that as the FIRST thing that was evidence of her cheating, even if the intention was "I need to come clean and hope you can accept me?" Yeah, immediate divorce, no questions asked. That's a fucking ambush. Like, if she had sent the email first, even, that would have been so much better. "Hey, this video is coming, and here's what's in it, and here's why I'm sending it." Even the ordering was just... like I said, Jesus, lady. I'm going to read the rest of it, because it's an interesting hook, but that was about the very worst way she could have gone about it with like 99% of the guys out there, I guarantee it. And given the fact that his immediate response was to cry, to feel like his heart had been torn out, and to contemplate divorce? I doubt there's anything in their past that would ameliorate her actions. The other details in the story go counter to that as well.

 

[Thorlol]

Okay. We've disagreed previously on emotional connections in these stories.

We each speak from our own experiences, and as such, our experiences are not all encompassing. And PROOF of sexual activities and intentions is very subjective. In my experience, MOST people only reluctantly discuss their true sexual experiences or desires, with many defaulting to regurgitating what they think is expected.

In my own real-life experiences, sex is NOT necessarily as you describe. After orgasm, I very quickly lose interest. And that emotional disconnect may last for an hour or two. I am fortunate in finding my current wife who feels the same. After she has "The Big One" (as she describes it), she'll actually say to me "Okay, I'm done. You can get off me now." Then she'll reach for the TV remote to find something to watch.

So, not everyone connects emotionally immediately after sex.

I try to write these different ways of looking at sex into my stories. In "The Real Gift: Her Fantasy", I explained the wife's motivations with:
*****
So, when Jan finally grabbed onto me, a clueless geek in our senior year, she felt like taking control of me (and later, any guy), almost as if making up for those years boys avoided her. She learned to flirt ... and later she reveled in using her new skill as a weapon against all men. She seemed particularly satisfied when she would tease me and have me begging her to finish, then reduce me to an empty husk, with my cock shrinking and empty. Her attitude was: "I got you! ... Now be a good boy and bring me a glass of wine."
*****

While not exactly how my wife and I met, the sentiment is her, in real life.

So, I tend to resist the judgmental urge to say, "That's NOT how people act!" I've been surprised too many times when finding people who DO act that way.

Alright, you are not wrong. I should stop to talk in absolutes. Of course its different for everyone and it also differs with time. But generally speaking people release certain chemicals like oxytocin (and others) after orgasmic responses. Wich are known for building stronger bonds. Good sex can help to increase the closeness of two people. You really need to have a certain mindset before the act to not have that happen. Different settings also help to prevent that.

Speaking from experience now (not only mine), being at a sex party with a huge number of strangers where you just fuck who you fancy on a superficial basis is way different than a swap with a couple you are friends with. Or if you have a one on one (sex)date with someone.

I actually thought the author was unique in his approach with the wife struggling with her cheating. And although she wanted to admit it to her husband, she didn't spring it on him face-to-face and out of the blue. "Hey, I've been cheating on you, but hear me out." IMO, THAT is cruel, hitting the husband out of the blue.

Well she did spring it on him with a very graphic background. How that is 'nicer' than a face-to-face retelling I dont know. For me thats way worse and more cruel than anything else.

 

[Lifestyle66]

Agree to disagree. If my wife sent me a video like that as the FIRST thing that was evidence of her cheating, even if the intention was "I need to come clean and hope you can accept me?" Yeah, immediate divorce, no questions asked. That's a fucking ambush. Like, if she had sent the email first, even, that would have been so much better. "Hey, this video is coming, and here's what's in it, and here's why I'm sending it." Even the ordering was just... like I said, Jesus, lady. I'm going to read the rest of it, because it's an interesting hook, but that was about the very worst way she could have gone about it with like 99% of the guys out there, I guarantee it. And given the fact that his immediate response was to cry, to feel like his heart had ben torn out, and to contemplate divorce? I doubt there's anything in their past that would ameliorate her actions. The other details int eh story go counter to that as well.

It sounds like there's no way you would think is a good way to break it to her husband.

Does she just face him and say, "I'm cheating on you!", and wait for him to punch her out of spontaneous anger?
Does she anonymously leave some photos for him to find?
Does she have a friend tell him his wife is cheating (not very discrete, and then it's out there for others).

There is no GOOD way to break bad news.

Just my impression, but I think you might not accept the concept that sex and love are two different things. The problem with that attitude will come in the future as bodies change and desires change due to physical limitations. Then the couple with the sex=love attitude is doomed to fail, unless they evolve simultaneously into their declining years at the same rates.

 

[NoTalentHack]

Alright, you are not wrong. I should stop to talk in absolutes. Of course its different for everyone and it also differs with time. But generally speaking people release certain chemicals like oxytocin (and others) after orgasmic responses. Wich are known for building stronger bonds. Good sex can help to increase the closeness of two people. You really need to have a certain mindset before the act to not have that happen. Different settings also help to prevent that.

Speaking from experience now (not only mine), being at a sex party with a huge number of strangers where you just fuck who you fancy on a superficial basis is way different than a swap with a couple you are friends with. Or if you have a one on one (sex)date with someone.



Well she did spring it on him with a very graphic background. How that is 'nicer' than a face-to-face retelling I dont know. For me thats way worse and more cruel than anything else.

Oh yeah! And that she both didn't clean herself up AND tried to join him in the shower and then when he denied her, she... ugh, just read the story. Like, WTF? All of that rung as either someone trying to force the issue or so completely clueless that it all has to go wrong eventually.

 

[Lifestyle66]

Alright, you are not wrong. I should stop to talk in absolutes. Of course its different for everyone and it also differs with time. But generally speaking people release certain chemicals like oxytocin (and others) after orgasmic responses. Wich are known for building stronger bonds. Good sex can help to increase the closeness of two people. You really need to have a certain mindset before the act to not have that happen. Different settings also help to prevent that.

Speaking from experience now (not only mine), being at a sex party with a huge number of strangers where you just fuck who you fancy on a superficial basis is way different than a swap with a couple you are friends with. Or if you have a one on one (sex)date with someone.



Well she did spring it on him with a very graphic background. How that is 'nicer' than a face-to-face retelling I dont know. For me thats way worse and more cruel than anything else.

The video (as she says in the story) is effectively her putting her own head on the chopping block and at her husband's mercy. She presented him with the present of proof of her infidelity, so he has the upper hand in a divorce.

 

[NoTalentHack]

It sounds like there's no way you would think is a good way to break it to her husband.

Does she just face him and say, "I'm cheating on you!", and wait for him to punch her out of spontaneous anger?
Does she anonymously leave some photos for him to find?
Does she have a friend tell him his wife is cheating (not very discrete, and then it's out there for others).

There is no GOOD way to break bad news.

Just my impression, but I think you might not accept the concept that sex and love are two different things. The problem with that attitude will come in the future as bodies change and desires change due to physical limitations. Then the couple with the sex=love attitude is doomed to fail, unless they evolve simultaneously into their declining years at the same rates.

Oh no, I do. I've been in both polyamorous and monogamous relationships, the most recent one being my marriage of nearly 20 years. We've talked about what we'd do and what we're both willing to accept if/when we're physically unable to have sex. And that's what reasonable people do: talk before, not after.

As to what she could have done, even sending the email first in order to give him time to understand first she did what she did would have been miles better than sending the video first. "I love you, also, here's me fucking a guy and being WAY more into it than you've ever seen me, now please wait 30 minutes for an explanation?" No. Not just no, but hell no.

 

[Lifestyle66]

Oh no, I do. I've been in both polyamorous and monogamous relationships, the most recent one being my marriage of nearly 20 years. We've talked about what we'd do and what we're both willing to accept if/when we're physically unable to have sex. And that's what reasonable people do: talk before, not after.

As to what she could have done, even sending the email first in order to give him time to understand first she did what she did would have been miles better than sending the video first. "I love you, also, here's me fucking a guy and being WAY more into it than you've ever seen me, now please wait 30 minutes for an explanation?" No. Not just no, but hell no.

One woman I knew had a high libido, and her husband became impotent for their last 17 years together. She "scratched her itch" whenever she could, until he just couldn't take it anymore.

Another woman I knew would leave the kids with a babysitter and head out to bars when her husband was working.

A guy I knew explained how his estranged father left the wife and son when he was nine years old, never to return. Then when the father tried reconnecting with the grown son, this guy said he couldn't stand to talk to the father who abandoned them. The guy then went on within a year later to do EXACTLY the same to his own wife and son!

In my long life, I seen many different things and relationships. "Never say never!"

 

[NoTalentHack]

And I'll go one further: even the timing of it was awful. The story starts on a Thursday. She takes the video that day and writes the email and sends it and somehow she still can't get home in time to clean herself up and beat him home, even though he has to finish his work day and head home. She was waiting in a chair for him when he got home, and when he went to shower, she goes in to pee still full of the other guy's come and cleans herself up in front of him. She couldn't have waited another 10 minutes to not subject him to that?

But put all of that aside. She does this on a Thursday. He has to go to work on Friday; she calls in sick, because SHE can't bear the pain of his rejection or her guilt or whatever. But she had the video and the email. Why did she need to send it that day? She could have sent it on Friday afternoon. She could have left on Saturday morning before he left and put a letter and a USB stick on the table for him. EVERYthing is about her. Every single thing. Not him. Her.

She's selfish and disrespectful. That could either be because that's just who she is, or it could be that she's so clueless that she can't see it, or it could be because she is trying to pretend she cares more than she does. There is nothing good about what she's done, not even the way she did it. And she controlled, entirely, how and when her husband saw the video.

Yeah, there's an interesting story concept here, but it's completely hampered by execution.

 

[Thorlol]

The video (as she says in the story) is effectively her putting her own head on the chopping block and at her husband's mercy. She presented him with the present of proof of her infidelity, so he has the upper hand in a divorce.

The thing is, she didnt put herself at his mercy. She forced the issue, either he accepts it or not. Ok, he has a video but does it help him in any other way then put him into a world of hurt? The video is not relevant in a divorce and has no relevance for other people.

If I would send that video to my friends they would ask me if I am gone nuts. If I would send the video to my parents or her parents they would loose my number before asking me why I thought it would be a good idea to send a porn clip to them. No matter the actors. A court also wouldnt care, well they would, they would ask me if I had consent of both people to distribute the clip. 'Revenge porn' is taken very serious where I live.

So no, there a no good ways to confess to cheating but there are different levels of cruelty involved. This one belongs to the top in shattering a person.

For those who may wonder why LW has so many comments...

Well, atleast here its a discussion with differing viewpoints. In the comment section its just comments, nothing else. Not the usual cuck/faggot one liner comments without anything substantial.

And I think atleast here people can see why some stories dont get the votes some authors think they should have gotten.

 

[NoTalentHack]

Well, atleast here its a discussion with differing viewpoints. In the comment section its just comments, nothing else. Not the usual cuck/faggot one liner comments without anything substantial.

And I think atleast here people can see why some stories dont get the votes some authors think they should have gotten.

This, exactly. There's a good story in there. The bones of it are great, and even novel. A truly remorseful wife (probably) who has an itch she can't get scratched by her husband comes clean to him before he finds out, gives him everything he needs to destroy her, begs to stay with him and be accepted, but will also let him go with love and regret if he can't accept it. There's an interesting, multifaceted, human character there.

That immediately goes into the shitter with execution.

Everything she actually does belies everything she says. That's what's maddening, arguably more than a Martian Slut Ray character; MSR's aren't supposed to make sense. This character is supposed and doesn't, and it goes a long way to ruining an interesting story.

 

[Lifestyle66]

This, exactly. There's a good story in there. The bones of it are great, and even novel. A truly remorseful wife (probably) who has an itch she can't get scratched by her husband comes clean to him before he finds out, gives him everything he needs to destroy her, begs to stay with him and be accepted, but will also let him go with love and regret if he can't accept it. There's an interesting, multifaceted, human character there.

That immediately goes into the shitter with execution.

Everything she actually does belies everything she says. That's what's maddening, arguably more than a Martian Slut Ray character; MSR's aren't supposed to make sense. This character is supposed and doesn't, and it goes a long way to ruining an interesting story.

I'll give you that.

And one flaw I will admit is her coming home with his cum still in her seemed to serve no point.

The author might have made it more appealing by her sending the e-mail first, then presenting him with a thumb drive with the video evidence later. But he doesn't get to hear her dissing her strange cock's idea that she will drop him if her ever loves her.

I think that was the author's intent, using that venue to allow the husband to hear her in her own words to the other guy.

So, ... how might that be handled in a different way? How might she admit it all to her husband, giving him the time to think before confronting her, and give him both the evidence to destroy her and hear her admission to the other guy that she loves her husband?

I've tried in my own stories to accomplish certain goals in explaining things to the reader in such a way as to hit several points without building a lifetime of experience in hundreds of thousands of words. I just thought this was a novel way of doing it.

 

[Lifestyle66]

The video is not relevant in a divorce and has no relevance for other people.

At least in the U.S., a couple might file for divorce as long as both agree. But if it's contested by one, then the other must show cause. Giving her husband the video is the "cause" he needs to prove her infidelity in court. So even if she contests the divorce, she'll automatically lose in court.

As you've been saying that video is cruel, and any honest judge would agree.

 

[NoTalentHack]

Actually, you know, I think this does bring us back around to the original issue, and I also think it answers some questions.

I don't want to put words in folks' mouths, but it's clear that Lifestyle66 is a pretty big booster of ethical nonmonogamy, in whatever form of that is correct for the people involved. I'll go one further: I think he's anti-monogamy, except in certain circumstances. And that may be incorrect, or it may be too broad, and I'm sorry if it is. It's not a value judgment; just a statement.

I'm in the middle. I'm fine with ethical nonmonogamy, but it's not (generally) for me in my own marriage. There may be circumstances int he near future that change that, but when I tried it in the past, it was one of three scenarios: a relationship that ended badly when she dropped the "ethical" part from that; being a single guy out and dating a lot of different women with no promises to any of them; and being the occasional third lover, during that single period, to some married women whose husbands knew about and endorsed it. But, when I'm in a relationship, a committed one, monogamy is what I prefer.

And the there's most people, who don't want anything to do with it, or at least don't want to admit they do. They want a monogamous relationship, at least in theory; some of them are cheaters themselves, but they don't think it's right for everyone, just something they decided they would do and get away with, or did previously and regret.

And in the case of a lot of the guys (especially the BTB diehards), they got burned really badly when a former partner decided to step out on them. They're basically going to hate everything to do with swapping/sharing/cucking because of their previous experience.

And that, right there, is why it's so hard to write a good/acceptable/highly-rated story in LW. Our various reactions to this one story present it to us in a nutshell.

Lifestyle66 liked it, and still likes it, even after being presented with the significant flaws (which he admits are there) int he way the wife exposed her infidelities and her "needs." So (painting with a broad brush) the "pro-ethical nonmonogamy" crowd, for lack of a better term, will be inclined to like it, because it's good enough.

People like me, who are kind of in the middle and have good and bad experiences with both go, "Man, this could have been so good, but this is SO fucked up!" Like, there was SO MUCH there that I liked, to the point that I posted my first negative comment that was basically a distillation of my posts above, with the emphasis that it was a great idea marred by execution.

The third group will have an even more visceral reaction; there's no getting around it. Even if all of the changes I suggested were made, there would still be ones that would only be "lolno, get a divorce." The only way it maybe could have worked for them would have been if she had come to him first, which changes the entire structure of the story.

And, of course, the BTBers want her burned at the stake.

There's probably a fifth group off to the side that's there for cheating wife stories where she's outright cheating, but they're both probably the smallest and/or this is only tangentially an "affair" story, instead being the setup for a swinging one, in theory.

Even if those four groups were the same size, and I guarantee you they're not, you have one group inclined to like it, one willing to give a good story a go, one that needs a number of concessions to even think about accepting it, and one that will always say "hell no." Those aren't good odds.

Flip that around to a BTB story. BTBers will love it, "regular" people will love it if it's even decently done, folks like me will go with it as long as it's well written and find it inoffensive if it's not (as long as it's not over the top in its cruelty), and even folks in the "ethical nonmonogamy is awesome crowd" can sometimes enjoy someone being burnt if they really deserve it and it's written well.

This, even if you don't think about population sizes, which I addressed in the earlier analysis, goes a long way to explaining... a whole lot of things about LW, its ratings, and its comments.

 

[djrip]

Flip that around to a BTB story. BTBers will love it, "regular" people will love it if it's even decently done, folks like me will go with it as long as it's well written and find it inoffensive if it's not (as long as it's not over the top in its cruelty), and even folks in the "ethical nonmonogamy is awesome crowd" can sometimes enjoy someone being burnt if they really deserve it and it's written well.

I doubt I'm the only one with a visceral hatred for BTB scenarios. I'm just very morally opposed to their premise - that women are generally evil and out to fuck over their trusting partners, and that extreme vengeance is an appropriate response to a relationship not working out. I find the things the women do to 'deserve' vengeance unrealistic and cartoonish, and I have a strong moral aversion to the idea of revenge as a response. (I'm fine with revenge stories against someone who killed/raped your spouse/child/dog (probably just killed on that last one), but not for cheating.) If a partner cheats the solution is talking and maybe divorce.

They're also the opposite of erotic, at least during the revenge part.

But I don't downvote BTB stories because I either don't read them or if I do read one I go, well I'm clearly not the intended audience for that, I'll let its real audience rate it. That's what the BTB people do not do for anything they hate, and that asymmetry is I think the reason for higher scores on BTB stories in LW.

 

[Smarthomanid2]

Why are you telling us about this cesspit here?

This is The Good Place - or is it The Bad Place?

Anyway, do you want to build a snowman?

Em

Em,

I'll build a snowman with you.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

I doubt I'm the only one with a visceral hatred for BTB scenarios. I'm just very morally opposed to their premise - that women are generally evil and out to fuck over their trusting partners, and that extreme vengeance is an appropriate response to a relationship not working out. I find the things the women do to 'deserve' vengeance unrealistic and cartoonish, and I have a strong moral aversion to the idea of revenge as a response. (I'm fine with revenge stories against someone who killed/raped your spouse/child/dog (probably just killed on that last one), but not for cheating.) If a partner cheats the solution is talking and maybe divorce.

They're also the opposite of erotic, at least during the revenge part.

But I don't downvote BTB stories because I either don't read them or if I do read one I go, well I'm clearly not the intended audience for that, I'll let its real audience rate it. That's what the BTB people do not do for anything they hate, and that asymmetry is I think the reason for higher scores on BTB stories in LW.

Aren't they supposed to be the more intelligent audience? I am struggling to connect these two concepts: The irrational hatefulness of the part of LW readership and their supposed higher overall intelligence. I know you are not the one who claimed it, but your post is very useful for making a point

 

[NoTalentHack]

I doubt I'm the only one with a visceral hatred for BTB scenarios. I'm just very morally opposed to their premise - that women are generally evil and out to fuck over their trusting partners, and that extreme vengeance is an appropriate response to a relationship not working out. I find the things the women do to 'deserve' vengeance unrealistic and cartoonish, and I have a strong moral aversion to the idea of revenge as a response. (I'm fine with revenge stories against someone who killed/raped your spouse/child/dog (probably just killed on that last one), but not for cheating.) If a partner cheats the solution is talking and maybe divorce.

They're also the opposite of erotic, at least during the revenge part.

But I don't downvote BTB stories because I either don't read them or if I do read one I go, well I'm clearly not the intended audience for that, I'll let its real audience rate it. That's what the BTB people do not do for anything they hate, and that asymmetry is I think the reason for higher scores on BTB stories in LW.

It kind of depends on how we define "BTB." Like, physical violence is pretty much out for me; maybe against the affair partner if they're vile or whatever, but otherwise, no. But a BTB can be as excessive as that or as minimal as the natural consequences of the ex-wife's actions, e.g., being a pariah among friends and family, lonely, etc. This is one of those cases where people say a word without an agreed upon definition.

The funny thing, to me, is that BTBs, especially the milder ones, are very often romance stories in their second half. I've often wondered what that says about the people that habitually write them.

 

[Lifestyle66]

Actually, you know, I think this does bring us back around to the original issue, and I also think it answers some questions.

I don't want to put words in folks' mouths, but it's clear that Lifestyle66 is a pretty big booster of ethical nonmonogamy, in whatever form of that is correct for the people involved. I'll go one further: I think he's anti-monogamy, except in certain circumstances. And that may be incorrect, or it may be too broad, and I'm sorry if it is. It's not a value judgment; just a statement.

....

Lifestyle66 liked it, and still likes it, even after being presented with the significant flaws (which he admits are there) int he way the wife exposed her infidelities and her "needs." So (painting with a broad brush) the "pro-ethical nonmonogamy" crowd, for lack of a better term, will be inclined to like it, because it's good enough.

I'm not anti-monogamy. IMO, most people can't handle a non monogamous relationship. But for those who can, IMO they can have a stronger loving marriage, based on honesty.

IMO, cheating doesn't just occur with sex. It can occur when one spouse lusts for someone other than their spouse. It occurs when one is secretly watching porn, or even secretly writing erotic stories of their fantasies, which they hide and can't discuss with their spouse. There are many ways to emotionally abandon your spouse for something/someone else.

Those secrets are the cracks in a marriage which just grow wider over time.

I appreciated that story because the wife saw that problem and chose to confront it. It was an interesting/debatable way in which she did it. I thought it an interesting example to bring here for those who HATE the Loving Wives tropes.

As I said, I gave that story a 5 to encourage that author to see where they go with it. If it goes along a path toward a good resolution for both husband and wife, I'll continue with 4's (due to other Grammer and punctuation errors. (Let's not be lazy, and take the time to do it better.)

 

[djrip]

It kind of depends on how we define "BTB." Like, physical violence is pretty much out for me; maybe against the affair partner if they're vile or whatever, but otherwise, no. But a BTB can be as excessive as that or as minimal as the natural consequences of the ex-wife's actions, e.g., being a pariah among friends and family, lonely, etc. This is one of those cases where people say a word without an agreed upon definition.

The funny thing, to me, is that BTBs, especially the milder ones, are very often romance stories in their second half. I've often wondered what that says about the people that habitually write them.

I read I Know My Wife the other day and I think it's kind of what you're talking about. It was good and thoughtful and certainly not triggering my moral outrage like more extreme BTB type stuff. I enjoyed thinking about it. But with something like that, I don't celebrate seeing the cheater suffer negative consequences. To me them ending up lonely may be interesting narratively, and make for a thought provoking read, but it's just as sad as them cheating on the MC and the marriage ending. I don't go, 'well I'm glad they got what they deserved,' if that makes sense, though I can enjoy the story, as I did yours.

I do sometimes enjoy the other parts of such stories like the romance with a new partner, or the hotness of the cheater's trashy sex before they get caught or maybe while they are unknowingly watched.

 

[Lifestyle66]

This, exactly. There's a good story in there. The bones of it are great, and even novel. A truly remorseful wife (probably) who has an itch she can't get scratched by her husband comes clean to him before he finds out, gives him everything he needs to destroy her, begs to stay with him and be accepted, but will also let him go with love and regret if he can't accept it. There's an interesting, multifaceted, human character there.

That immediately goes into the shitter with execution.

Everything she actually does belies everything she says. That's what's maddening, arguably more than a Martian Slut Ray character; MSR's aren't supposed to make sense. This character is supposed and doesn't, and it goes a long way to ruining an interesting story.

The author just published Part 2 of Liberation ..., and the husband has moved out, still struggling with his wife's cheating behavior and her recognition that she'll succumb to her urges again in the future.

I gave it a 4 this time, because the author needs to do a better job of editing. This part was shorter at 3.1K words, and just seemed like a quickly written bunch of notes which should have been fleshed out into a better written story. I also didn't like in this part where the wife went to her bigcock guy to break it off. That's like throwing gas on the fire, making her a clueless bimbo, when she knew her husband was already angry.

I felt the same way with your story "I Know My Wife", when the wife just ran off for her weekend. I understand the story was short and that you were focusing on consequences for stupid decisions. But the wife character just seemed too much like a story prop.

I anticipate the author of Liberation is going to RAAC, because he said initially it would be a romance. And his MFC is also somewhat of a clueless bimbo prop.

I don't care for the cheating/BTB stories. But these showing breakups without the "scorched Earth" revenge and destruction are at least food for thought. IMO, they're more realistic of how marriages dissolve.

 

[NoTalentHack]

I felt the same way with your story "I Know My Wife", when the wife just ran off for her weekend. I understand the story was short and that you were focusing on consequences for stupid decisions. But the wife character just seemed too much like a story prop.

That’s fair. She pretty much was. IKMW was mostly me playing with the structure of a typical MSR BTB story, stripping out almost all of the dialog and doing some stuff with repetition as a style element. I was in the middle of the first story I had planned to put out here, After the Future is Gone, and I just needed to take a break and put SOMEthing out there to make sure I wasn’t wasting my time on shit no one was ever going to read.

Also, I’m kind of thinking the author is going for a bait and switch, and the love story is with another person. If so, then I’m going to go back and retroactively give him props; the wife (maybe) is being set up intentionally as being wrong for the MMC, even if he does love her. Or maybe he’s going an entirely different route. I’m looking forward to seeing.

 

[ElectricBlue]

I'll continue with 4's (due to other Grammer and punctuation errors. (Let's not be lazy, and take the time to do it better.)

I love Irony 101. It's the best.

 

[Lifestyle66]

I love Irony 101. It's the best.

LOL. Whoops.

But read the story, and you'll see what I mean.