Zelensky goes to Washington

[icanhelp1]

The UK is making many of its own and sending them to Ukraine to the extent that our own military is worried. The UK is also spending a lot with US manufacturers, both for Ukraine and to replace ssytems already sent to Ukraine. Other European NATO countries have increased their spends on US equipment.

The US Defense procurement industry is rubbing its hands in glee.

They always have! This is not lend and lease, once it's in Ukraine we loose track of where are stuff is going. I'm hearing rumors that certain Ukrainian individuals are getting rich on our generosity. Where are the audits? is it anti-democratic to insist on accountability, 31 trillion in debt, 102 billion to Ukraine and no one is the wiser.

 

[LupusDei]

Our streets are littered with fentanyl, homeless, illegal migrants living on our streets with no place to go, a border that is totally out of control and while our politicians...

Yeah, jut let Ukraine to be destroyed and the neo-feudal world that will come out of that will certainly solve all those annoyances somewhat automatically, did I understood it right?

To hide away so you don't have to think about it may, actually.

But indeed, it's so much more that's actually at stake in Ukraine. Solving those problems you strawman here almost literally starts with helping Ukraine win against the unprovoked agression it suffers. If you're so shortsighted not to understand that, that's what's actually sad.

 

[icanhelp1]

Yeah, jut let Ukraine to be destroyed and the neo-feudal world that will come out of that will certainly solve all those annoyances somewhat automatically, did I understood it right?

To hide away so you don't have to think about it may, actually.

But indeed, it's so much more that's actually at stake in Ukraine. Solving those problems you strawman here almost literally starts with helping Ukraine win against the unprovoked agression it suffers. If you're so shortsighted not to understand that, that's what's actually sad.

I understand what’s going on in Ukraine. I’m not for turning our back on them. I served for a good portion of the Cold War so I have a grasp at what’s at stake. I have a problem with our feckless political elites. I’ve written on several occasions that we should have transferred military assets from Germany to Poland and make Poland a mini superpower and fuck those snotty fucking Germans. When times were good they threw caution to the wind. For years we made feckless demands on NATO to pull their own weight and put more into their own defense and now the shit hits the fan and they‘re unprepared. In my opinion it’s time to balance the load, they didn’t pay then so let them pay now ( European NATO members ) We have major problems on our home front which are being ignored by our corrupt self serving political elites.

I’ll ask you a question, the way this crisis is being handled right now how long before we reach a resolution? 1 year, 5 years, maybe in perpetuity. Zelensky is hell bent on pushing the Russians clear out of the Crimea, the Donets, Luhansk, Zaporizhzhia. At what point does Zelensky rethink his position, what part is a pipe dream and what part leads to nuclear annihilation. They can’t beat Russia with the current strategy. Either NATO goes all in or get the fuck out. Putin sits back and pulls the strings knowing full well his country is off limits from the carnage that he imposes on Ukrainian.

And I might add that our virtue signaling fat cats are doing the same fucking thing, pulling strings, committing taxpayer money to a losing strategy, most are wealthy so it doesn’t affect them. War is pain but we have politicians that treat it like a video game.

 

[LupusDei]

They always have! This is not lend and lease, once it's in Ukraine we loose track of where are stuff is going. I'm hearing rumors that certain Ukrainian individuals are getting rich on our generosity. Where are the audits? is it anti-democratic to insist on accountability, 31 trillion in debt, 102 billion to Ukraine and no one is the wiser.

Nobody would argue against that Ukraine is a chaotic and uncontrollable place even in best of times. It's a country where always, always(!) throughout history villagers have elected their own pastors. They are naturally averse to authority, any authority.

It's also true there are several known and deeply ingrained criminal networks, but one of the greatest Russian blunders was that those deployed on Ukrainian government's side. It's a true people's war where to retain a semblance of leadership over it is a task only great comedy actor can carry. Indeed.

And true indeed, there had been weapons contraband discovered in Ukraine, even a whole unaccounted for helicopter was found in a shipping container. But nothing of that was American delivered, or at least American made.

Sure, there's plenty of weapons of shady history in use by Ukrainians. It is generally understood significant quantity of weapons confiscated by US (possibly others) in middle east go to Ukraine for use of their militarily. It's even more muddled by the significant captured and recaptured warehouses. A cache of Chinese small arms has so many ways to end up with Ukrainian partisans in occupied regions, even worse when such is presented by Russian propaganda without clear attribution to location and time.

Ukrainians will fire anything, they have AA batteries of dual Maxims in use. Yes, those water cooled guns are 140 years old, and in use in third major war.

However the quantity and level of some of those deliveries is such it's clear some kind of massive shadow trade likely involving proxies is going on. Pakistani and Sudan ammunitions wouldn't surprise anyone and could be purchased more or less directly, but Iran has never been known to delivered 122mm shells manufactured this year(!) to any of their proxies and certainly not by thousands how Ukrainian artillery appears to eagerly be firing those, at Russians that seemingly have reasons to consider Iran an ally.

It's true western delivered weapons been lost to capture, especially early in the war when many frontlines moved rapidly and unexpectedly. At some point Russian Donbas proxy militants demonstrated training to deploy NLAW, suggesting they had enough for a hassle, or at least propaganda production. There was a sad picture where apparently a bunch of distraught looking Belarussian tankers were presented with wide collection of single examples of handheld antitank weapons of western origin.

Indeed, when the news broke that American weapons delivered to Ukraine are found in hands of criminal underground of Sweden, the reaction of absolutely anyone was a shrug, say, was just a matter of time. However, even that article was debunked as nothing other than fantasy narrative of Russian propaganda. There's been so far no real evidence the seemingly reasonable concern has actual merit in objective reality.

Concerns that Ukrainian own inner logistics wasn't ideal (to say it mildly) and encumbered by, say "informal structures" (to be polite to dangerous people) were proven true indeed, and significant resources were deployed to correct the situation. But that was, like, back in April.

Since then, you're either oblivious, or are deliberately lying saying there is no US oversight of the delivery and distribution within Ukraine. A comprehensive attempt was made to establish such, and to my knowledge that effort has been at least nominally successful.

 

[icanhelp1]

Nobody would argue against that Ukraine is a chaotic and uncontrollable place even in best of times. It's a country where always, always(!) throughout history villagers have elected their own pastors. They are naturally averse to authority, any authority.

It's also true there are several known and deeply ingrained criminal networks, but one of the greatest Russian blunders was that those deployed on Ukrainian government's side. It's a true people's war where to retain a semblance of leadership over it is a task only great comedy actor can carry. Indeed.

And true indeed, there had been weapons contraband discovered in Ukraine, even a whole unaccounted for helicopter was found in a shipping container. But nothing of that was American delivered, or at least American made.

Sure, there's plenty of weapons of shady history in use by Ukrainians. It is generally understood significant quantity of weapons confiscated by US (possibly others) in middle east go to Ukraine for use of their militarily. It's even more muddled by the significant captured and recaptured warehouses. A cache of Chinese small arms has so many ways to end up with Ukrainian partisans in occupied regions, even worse when such is presented by Russian propaganda without clear attribution to location and time.

Ukrainians will fire anything, they have AA batteries of dual Maxims in use. Yes, those water cooled guns are 140 years old, and in use in third major war.

However the quantity and level of some of those deliveries is such it's clear some kind of massive shadow trade likely involving proxies is going on. Pakistani and Sudan ammunitions wouldn't surprise anyone and could be purchased more or less directly, but Iran has never been known to delivered 122mm shells manufactured this year(!) to any of their proxies and certainly not by thousands how Ukrainian artillery appears to eagerly be firing those, at Russians that seemingly have reasons to consider Iran an ally.

It's true western delivered weapons been lost to capture, especially early in the war when many frontlines moved rapidly and unexpectedly. At some point Russian Donbas proxy militants demonstrated training to deploy NLAW, suggesting they had enough for a hassle, or at least propaganda production. There was a sad picture where apparently a bunch of distraught looking Belarussian tankers were presented with wide collection of single examples of handheld antitank weapons of western origin.

Indeed, when the news broke that American weapons delivered to Ukraine are found in hands of criminal underground of Sweden, the reaction of absolutely anyone was a shrug, say, was just a matter of time. However, even that article was debunked as nothing other than fantasy narrative of Russian propaganda. There's been so far no real evidence the seemingly reasonable concern has actual merit in objective reality.

Concerns that Ukrainian own inner logistics wasn't ideal (to say it mildly) and encumbered by, say "informal structures" (to be polite to dangerous people) were proven true indeed, and significant resources were deployed to correct the situation. But that was, like, back in April.

Since then, you're either oblivious, or are deliberately lying saying there is no US oversight of the delivery and distribution within Ukraine. A comprehensive attempt was made to establish such, and to my knowledge that effort has been at least nominally successful.

I have no reason to lie. Our political elites are not being honest with us. Biden pulled out of Afghanistan and left behind billions in military hardware, so, I don’t trust our government to be truthful or accountable. We’re trillions in debt and as a taxpayer want accountability to the American people not to themselves. I think the Ukrainian military has done a bang up job but for their sake and the sake of the brave Ukrainian people what’s the end strategy? What good is Ukraine if all their young men are gone ?


I can only imagine what the security protocol was to get Zelensky out of country, I’m sure the Russians would have loved to take a crack at him.

 

[LupusDei]

I’ll ask you a question, the way this crisis is being handled right now how long before we reach a resolution? 1 year, 5 years, maybe in perpetuity. Zelensky is hell bent on pushing the Russians clear out of the Crimea, the Donets, Luhansk, Zaporizhzhia. At what point does Zelensky rethink his position, what part is a pipe dream and what part leads to nuclear annihilation. They can’t beat Russia with the current strategy. Either NATO goes all in or get the fuck out. Putin sits back and pulls the strings knowing full well his country is off limits from the carnage that he imposes on Ukrainian.

"Being handled right" carry a lot of weight here. Understood as near-no limits weapons deliveries to Ukraine, including more artillery shells than than there is in existence so they can have they dream to fire 20,000 shells a day to mirror the Russian volume (and yes, that would naturally require 500 to 1000 additional tubes), it's one year at most to full Ukraine's victory, understood as complete liberation of it in internationally recognized borders, yes, including Crimea.

Ukraine can win. And it's almost literally where there's almost a set number of artillery shells to be fired till victory, with a slight tax on it for doing it slower. And lives lost every day till then. That's why there's such desperation, because, indeed, in an ideal world the war should have been over already. However, that "number of artillery shells" is still very large.

In more realistic terms, I still would say the initial active phase will peter out about this time next year at whatever configuration the line of contact will be then, for subsequent attempts of both sides to extract additional concessions in form of dual or "independent" administration of set territory, most likely concerning Crimea.

I will be honestly surprised if Ukrainians will indeed conquer Krym by force, without Russians deliberately pulling out in light of systemic collapse, or Kherson style, as prevention of the same.

You may notice, I said "initial active phase." Yes, I don't expect hostilities to end swiftly, regardless of the outcome of this and next year. Even if Ukrainians succeeded in complete liberation of entire territory the artillery duels on the border would likely continue for another... yes, possibly another eight years. To whatever end Putin's regime will take, and even beyond. And if the border wasn't where it should be, periodic flare up is more than possible.

And it's very wrong to think Zelenskyy has any say in this. Nobody at all has. He has earned respect and reversed his popularity from a very low point right before the invasion, and his his greatest play of life, his role as a wartime leader may indeed have changed the war significantly, but he has very little real power over his people and would be discarded unceremoniously if he tried to sign an unjust or premature peace. It would, and will take a lot of careful groundwork to achieve.

Just so.... well, Bucha may not have been the very worst case of Russian atrocities, but it was very visible, both by being of first to be uncovered and almost more importantly, it was an upscale neighborhood. City in a park. Vows for revenge were made by resourceful people. Vows that will be remembered five generations from now.

Ukraine is ungovernable, always had been. We just are all lucky it's inhabited mostly by hippies. For now.

 

[LincolnDuncan]

Pretty big news day. Zelensky wants more assistance. What should Biden ask in return? What (if anything) more should the US provide? Where does the US draw the line in terms of assistance?

https://thehill.com/homenews/3783593-biden-holds-press-conference-with-zelensky/

I like totally missed the speech. Did he say anything about Hunter Biden's laptop?

 

[lovecraft68]

schilling for more millions we don't have, but pretend we do. For the amount we've handed them it would have been cheaper to send troops over and kick Putin out.

 

[SS100]

Personally think this isn't going to do anything. Anyone saying otherwise is just part of the media machine.

 

[LupusDei]

It’s Costing Peanuts for the US to Defeat Russia​

US spending of 5.6% of its defense budget to destroy nearly half of Russia’s conventional military capability seems like an absolutely incredible investment. If we divide out the US defense budget to the threats it faces, Russia would perhaps be of the order of $100bn-150bn in spend-to-threat. So spending just $40bn a year, erodes a threat value of $100-150bn, a two-to-three time return.  Actually the return is likely to be multiples of this given that defense spending, and threat are annual recurring events.

 

[dkovic77]

schilling for more millions we don't have, but pretend we do. For the amount we've handed them it would have been cheaper to send troops over and kick Putin out.

Hmmm well instead of spending 1.5 million to fly 48 ppl to Massachusetts, maybe some better cash management is in order.

For people who claim to be fiscal conservatives….

Greyhound for that trip is $350 a head. But I guess that doesn’t make the same splash for the cause and get the MAGA folks all excited to shoot off their guns outside in “victory.”

Thanks Ron!

 

[DeluxAuto]

Two proud patriots defending freedom lovers around the world.

View attachment 2197123

 

[BabyBoomer50s]

It’s Costing Peanuts for the US to Defeat Russia​

The roughly $100 billion that’s been allocated to Ukraine to date is a relatively small percentage of total spending, but it’s still a lot. Much, much smaller spending initiatives get subject to much greater scrutiny and debate. I’d like to see offsetting spending reductions to cover US support for Ukraine. That would be the fiscally responsible way to do it, and would help the American public understand that aid to Ukraine isn’t “free.”

 

[Lazaran]

Let’s just make sure when we do the accounting that we consider what it would have cost in blood, treasure, and risk of escalation to field our own military in Ukraine.

And we must also consider the cost of simply letting Russia overrun Ukraine + The potential domino effect relating to China and Taiwan

A full audit / accounting is always the best.

Especially when it comes to war and a President’s (or presidential candidate’s) taxes.

BabyBoobs

 

[BabyBoomer50s]

Let’s just make sure when we do the accounting that we consider what it would have cost in blood, treasure, and risk of escalation to field our own military in Ukraine.

And we must also consider the cost of simply letting Russia overrun Ukraine + The potential domino effect relating to China and Taiwan

A full audit / accounting is always the best.

Especially when it comes to war and a President’s (or presidential candidate’s) taxes.

BabyBoobs

I’m not arguing against spending money to help Ukraine. I’m making the case to pay for it with offsetting spending reductions in other areas.

 

[Lazaran]

Taxing war profiteering and pandemic profiteering are viable alternatives for offsetting costs.

Of course impacting the top 1 percent’s quality of life is immediately off the table for “republicans”.

BabyBoobs

 

[JohnEngelman]

I have no reason to lie. Our political elites are not being honest with us. Biden pulled out of Afghanistan and left behind billions in military hardware, so, I don’t trust our government to be truthful or accountable. We’re trillions in debt and as a taxpayer want accountability to the American people not to themselves. I think the Ukrainian military has done a bang up job but for their sake and the sake of the brave Ukrainian people what’s the end strategy? What good is Ukraine if all their young men are gone ?


I can only imagine what the security protocol was to get Zelensky out of country, I’m sure the Russians would have loved to take a crack at him.

President Biden made the right decision to leave Afghanistan. After the Navy Seals killed Osama bin Laden our original reason for invading Afghanistan no longer existed. As bad as we think it is with our Western values, the Taliban has considerable support in Afghanistan. It could not have withstood the best equipped, best financed military for twenty years otherwise. Our retreat from Afghanistan could have been better managed. It did not look as bad as our retreat from Vietnam.

 

[HisArpy]

Similar to my POV at a high level but US policy is vague. Im supportive of Ukraine because Russia is our enemy.

I’d like to see more of an “in it to win it” posture. If not that, then lay out an alternative.

If getting the Russians out of the entire country of Ukraine is the goal, do it. Don’t slow walk weapons. Give Zelensky everything he needs, and do it now. Aircraft, long range missiles, drones, ammo, whatever. If our own defense capacity is dangerously depleted, invoke the DPA to fill the backlog.

Nobody knows what might provoke Putin to start WWIII. Our policy makers are guessing. But the US is already in a proxy war. Might as well win it.

Winter is setting in. Russian troops are stalled, under resourced, and demoralized. Great time for an overwhelming offensive initiative. Help Ukraine crush them now.

That’s just the way I see it right now but am totally open to other ideas. This feels like it’s going to be a prolonged conflict.

The point isn't to win, it's to reduce the population and its dependency on government resources.

The war in Ukraine is an extension of the Covid pandemic which was created to reduce the global population to sustainable levels. When Ukraine ends, another "conflict" will begin and the trend will continue until the population is below some arbitrary number according to a plan devised in smoke filled rooms in the dead of night in places with names like Davos.

 

[HisArpy]

Taxing war profiteering and pandemic profiteering are viable alternatives for offsetting costs.

Of course impacting the top 1 percent’s quality of life is immediately off the table for “republicans”.

BabyBoobs

Lol, you still seem to think that corporations pay taxes...

 

[icanhelp1]

Lol, you still seem to think that corporations pay taxes...

There are some knowledgable and close to the issue that estimate between 200 to 400 billion dollars in Covid relief disappeared due to fraud, money is no option with congressional elites, spend till it hurts or you’re un-American.

 

[YDB95]

There are some knowledgable and close to the issue that estimate betwe 200 to 400 billion dollars in Covid relief disappeared due to fraud,

In the past, you have not displayed the best of judgment as to who was or wasn't "knowledgeable and close to the issue".

 

[icanhelp1]

In the past, you have not displayed the best of judgment as to who was or wasn't "knowledgeable and close to the issue".

It certainly wasn’t or isn’t you! Personally I really don’t give a flying fuck what you think. Your objectivity is more reliant on TDS than the actual facts. You’re OK with the mindset that getting Trump is more important than the rule of law. You, like many of the other lit leftoids are blinded by hatred for Trump even at the cost of our institutions. Our country is spiraling out of control while you and your ilk continue fighting the Trump war. Again, another huge spending bill passed and embarrassingly enough this time with republican help. You leftoids are jumping for joy that you won again, another massive spending bill that flies in the face of a fed trying to control inflation while billions disappear because of lax accounting procedures.

To boot! no one really knows what’s in the damn bill.

 

[phrodeau]

Lax accounting procedures? Was Steve Mnuchin at work again?

 

[KeithD]

Getting Trump IS an exercise in the rule of law. Who do these stupid board Trumpettes think they're fooling?

 

[YDB95]

It certainly wasn’t or isn’t you! Personally I really don’t give a flying fuck what you think. Your objectivity is more reliant on TDS than the actual facts. You’re OK with the mindset that getting Trump is more important than the rule of law. You, like many of the other lit leftoids are blinded by hatred for Trump even at the cost of our institutions. Our country is spiraling out of control while you and your ilk continue fighting the Trump war. Again, another huge spending bill passed and embarrassingly enough this time with republican help. You leftoids are jumping for joy that you won again, another massive spending bill that flies in the face of a fed trying to control inflation while billions disappear because of lax accounting procedures.

To boot! no one really knows what’s in the damn bill.

Thank you for proving my point better than I ever could have done on my own.