What do female writers think about males writing from a female POV?

[MillieDynamite]

She/her, he/him, they/them, we/us, his/him/her, he-she, she-he, ze/hir, and those all agree there is confusion with pronouns of late. Did I miss anyone?

 

[Bubo_bubo]

OTOH Swahili (and other Bantu languages) has a large number of noun classes that are functionally similar to grammatical gender in Romance languages, in that adjectives and pronouns must agree with them. It's not that Swahili has just one pronoun, it's that it has just one pronoun for humans.

 

[MillieDynamite]

If we didn't want:
1. people using gendered pronouns (already a thing before us trans people apparently made it So difficult*), or
2. people making fun of other people's attempts to express themselves in the most accurate way possible within the constraints of their native language,

...then it would be better off if English just had a single, non-gendered pronoun, like many languages do. E.g., Armenian (նա) and Farsi (او). I believe Estonian, Yoruba (or Ede Yoruba), and Swahili are the same. Gender-neutrality goes further in Ede Yoruba.

*Did we forget how brainwashed the German, French, and Spanish speakers are into the gendering of objects? Why is this okay? Why is my Spanish suitcase female? Because I shove shit into it??

I call people what they want to be called. I'm not making fun of any person, but the situation. The real issue is that English and most of the world have gender-based pronouns, as far back as the foundations of language itself. To me, calling a single individual them has lessened them as a person. Even so, it is their right for me to use the pronoun they want when talking about them. 90% of the time, humor is some form of loving (or not so loving), mild put-down. We have a genderless pronoun, and you should know it because I just used it. However, some don't want to be called you. They want to address as them directly.

*And Latin, Germanic, and French cultures have always referred to objects with gender-based pronouns. What's wrong with that? Why is it not okay? Does your suitcase object? Should the entire world change to accommodate any minority, all minorities?

I'm black and a lesbian. I don't ask others to make adjustments for either of those things.

 

[Bubo_bubo]

<snip> The real issue is that English and most of the world have gender-based pronouns, as far back as the foundations of language itself. <snip>

Actually the Proto-Indo-European (PIE) - the mother language of English, German, Romance languages and a host of other languages - probably originally did not have a feminine/masculine distinction. So no it didn't exist as far as the foundation of language itself (which is even further back than PIE).

The problem with English is that pronouns are just about the only thing that is gendered in the language. While in Romance languages just about everything is gendered and people are maybe a little bit more inclined to distinguish between grammatical gender and social gender. After all in French the word for cock is feminine (la bite), and if you're a victim (la victime) or a person (la personne) you're feminine. Problems though are masculine (le problème).

 

[Voboy]

English used to be gendered, too.

It just changes faster than most other languages. No biggie. In the case of gendered nouns, it seems that the change happened because of contact with the Norse in the Danelaw.

 

[Bramblethorn]

*Did we forget how brainwashed the German, French, and Spanish speakers are into the gendering of objects? Why is this okay? Why is my Spanish suitcase female? Because I shove shit into it??

As an English speaker I'm well aware that I'm throwing stones from a glass house when I grumble about other people's languages, but...

One thing I find weird in German is that sometimes the gender of pronouns depends on the actual sex/gender of the creature one's talking about, and sometimes it depends on the gender of the type of thing they are.

For instance, Schlange (snake) is feminine, so when talking about a male snake one might use either sie (she) or er (he) depending on whether we're focussing on the male-ness or the snake-ness. From a learner's perspective it's not clear which of the two to follow, when they conflict - @Blind_Justice or any of the other German speakers, is there some principle I'm missing here?

(And of course a Schlange, feminine, is also a Reptil, neuter...)

 

[LdyHoneybee]

She/her, he/him, they/them, we/us, his/him/her, he-she, she-he, ze/hir, and those all agree there is confusion with pronouns of late. Did I miss anyone?

Sorry to be so dumb, but I never heard ze/hir and I don’t want to hurt anyone’s feelings. What is it?

Also i wonder if any language has a pronoun that is appropriate for a sentient being with no sexual characteristics. Ah i found it. But no language that i know….. Language is thought. In English the very first question anyone asks after a birth is not “does the baby have everything” but “boy or girl?” This makes gender a HUGE part of identity, I think. It is the first thing that a human being is assigned.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Sorry to be so dumb, but I never heard ze/hir and I don’t want to hurt anyone’s feelings. What is it?

Asking when you don't know something isn't dumb! I think you already know some of this but it's easier if I just write the whole thing, apologies for stuff you already know.

In English, the usual pronouns are "he"/"him" for somebody who's male, and "she"/"her" for somebody who's female. (Two forms for each, because English pronouns vary depending on whether the person is subject or object: "he saw me" but "I saw him". We might need up to five different forms to cover other things like reflexive and possessive use, but it's usually easy to figure out the others once you have subject and object.)

Sometimes it's useful to have other options:

- Talking about somebody whose gender is unknown ("somebody left a note for you, but they didn't sign it")
- Talking about a generic somebody when we don't want to specify a gender ("if anybody wants to come tomorrow, they have to pay in advance")
- Talking about somebody who doesn't fit comfortably into that male/female binary (non-binary).

As in the examples above, English has used singular "they"/"them" for centuries in the unknown/generic cases. In my experience it's also by far the most common choice for non-binary people who don't use "he" or "she", and it's generally accepted as a polite option when you don't know somebody's preferences - "I'd like to thank your friend Jan, can you tell me their pronouns?"

But over the years, going back to at least the 18th century, a lot of people have had a go at coming up with new options for non-binary pronouns in English. (Some history on that here - even A.A. Milne had a go!) These are collectively called "neopronouns". A lot of those inventions never took off or got abandoned, but one of the older options that's still around is "ze"/"hir" (rhyming with "he"/"she" and "fear"), first proposed in 1864.

I haven't seen the reasons for that particular choice, but I think it was meant to fall halfway between "he"/"him" and "she"/"her". "Ze" has the same "e" sound, and "zir" sounds a little bit like "her" while having the "i" of "him" (but pronounced differently). However, some folk feel that it falls a bit closer to female than male, especially since "ze" sounds very like German for "she".

So there are various other options around. That said, AFAIK anything beyond "he", "she", and "they" is pretty uncommon; my social circle has a lot of non-binary folk and while there are dozens of "they"s, I can only think of one "ze" and none of the other options.

Also i wonder if any language has a pronoun that is appropriate for a sentient being with no sexual characteristics. Ah i found it. But no language that i know….. Language is thought. In English the very first question anyone asks after a birth is not “does the baby have everything” but “boy or girl?” This makes gender a HUGE part of identity, I think. It is the first thing that a human being is assigned.

There is "it", but this isn't one to use on a human unless they have said it's okay. Usually it'd be seen as a dehumanising slur, since it's often used that way against trans people and others.

(One of my favourite fictional characters, Martha Wells' Murderbot, goes by "it". But that pronoun is chosen deliberately to emphasise that Murderbot doesn't want to be human, even if it has human friends.)

 

[DukeStone]

I'm a male but when I write my novels I have not only my female editor but also several female beta readers. Especially if it's a lesbian scene. So far I'm accurate about 90% of the time with only adjustments in word choice needed

 

[Omenainen]

Also i wonder if any language has a pronoun that is appropriate for a sentient being with no sexual characteristics. Ah i found it. But no language that i know….. Language is thought. In English the very first question anyone asks after a birth is not “does the baby have everything” but “boy or girl?” This makes gender a HUGE part of identity, I think. It is the first thing that a human being is assigned.

Finnish! I think we should all start speaking Finnish! We only have one pronoun ("hän") and it is for everyone. We also don't have gendered nouns or almost anything else. For example a word for "man" as in "mankind" is "ihminen" and "ihmiskunta" which, again, is for everyone.

Besides, if we did, I'd have advantage for a change

 

[MillieDynamite]

Sorry to be so dumb, but I never heard ze/hir and I don’t want to hurt anyone’s feelings. What is it?

Also i wonder if any language has a pronoun that is appropriate for a sentient being with no sexual characteristics. Ah i found it. But no language that i know….. Language is thought. In English the very first question anyone asks after a birth is not “does the baby have everything” but “boy or girl?” This makes gender a HUGE part of identity, I think. It is the first thing that a human being is assigned.

Ze is pronounced like “zee” can also be spelled zie or xe, and replaces she/he/they. Hir is pronounced like “here” and replaces her/hers/him/his/they/theirs.

ASexual, (not as used in biology) applied to a person means a person who has no interest in sex one way or another. They have friends and don't have lovers of either sex, they are not attracted to their sex sexually or the other sexy. I supposed if you applied it as a gender you could use it as a pronoun.

 

[MillieDynamite]

Well I guess if I can't read tone very well in real life, I can't read it on a forum, either! So that's on me.

Language evolves. It's happening right now, right?

I sure do. I've seen people use a variety of pronouns and provide alternative pronouns in the support groups I facilitate. So, no, I'm not ignorant to that fact. I was suggesting obliterating gendered language entirely because I care little for all of it, and so many languages seem to do well without it.

Yes, they always have. Doesn't mean it's any good in my opinion. I can complain about it all I like because I think it sounds ridiculous, just like how my ELL students have complaints about ridiculous rules or inconsistencies in the English language. Or they implicitly complain because they have a hard time with certain things.

The last sentence I bolded here for emphasis is a bit much. Language in common use is already evolving to accommodate trans people, and I think that's a good thing. The same thing is happening for other groups of people. Let me answer your question with a follow-up question:

Should all "minorities" be expected to try to adapt to a world that is inhospitable and hostile to them?

Because language is a prison that we are constantly redefining the parameters of. And when we only have limiting parameters for defining the people that we currently do not accept, and/or we use language that is demeaning as everyday language, that has a massive psychological effect on the lives of the 1.1 or so million trans adults (that's adults) living in the United States. This is over twice the current number of foster children in my country, for anyone who thinks The Children(TM) matter more.

The psychological effect it has on the "minority" is also a psychological effect on the majority. If the common language is oppressive/exclusive, then that is how people will think. End of story.

That's fine, that's your story. But there are many other people in this world who need structural adjustments made for them because they are suffering in a way that they can't bootstraps their way out of.

But that's a conversation for another place and time. This is getting way off topic and probably a bit much for this thread.

You've stated your concerns and desire for an immediate change to the English language. Please explain how this can be accomplished. I can't tell you one way it won't be accomplished, rapidly or perhaps ever, is arguing about its need in a Lit forum. Rapid change to a language when the world has war raging on, a worldwide, constantly evolving pandemic, runaway inflation, and all the other day-to-day issues everyone faces doesn't seem likely to me. I understand what you want, I don't think you are in the majority on the desire. I'm not making fun of you, but this is, as most of our discussions are, pointless outside this community. We don't yield that much power.

 

[Voboy]

Rapid change to a language when the world has war raging on, a worldwide, constantly evolving pandemic, runaway inflation, and all the other day-to-day issues everyone faces doesn't seem likely to me.

Au contraire. Crisis makes language change more swiftly, not less. Think of the wealth of vocabulary that made its way into English because of WWI or WWII, or any other war for that matter. Think of COVID, a neologism nobody had heard two years ago, plus all the other ways English has already changed as a result of the pandemic. Hell, even the word "pandemic" probably wasn't understood by 90% of the world's Anglophones two years ago. English is incomparably flexible, compared to other languages, when it comes to borrowing and adapting to a rapidly changing world.

I agree with you that nobody's going to change English by posting here, though.

 

[MillieDynamite]

Being sympathetic or, more correctly, empathic to the transgenders of the world, it pains me to say transgenderism isn't a part of the worldwide crisis.

 

[Kumquatqueen]

One thing I find weird in German is that sometimes the gender of pronouns depends on the actual sex/gender of the creature one's talking about, and sometimes it depends on the gender of the type of thing they are.

For instance, Schlange (snake) is feminine, so when talking about a male snake one might use either sie (she) or er (he) depending on whether we're focussing on the male-ness or the snake-ness. From a learner's perspective it's not clear which of the two to follow, when they conflict - @Blind_Justice or any of the other German speakers, is there some principle I'm missing here?

(And of course a Schlange, feminine, is also a Reptil, neuter...)

My German lessons were a while ago, so I defer to any native speakers, but it's roughly:
With animals, it's roughly the same as English - if you know the individual animal, you might call them he or she. "Where's your horse?" "She's there." implies you own or have a relationship with that horse, "It's there" suggests you've never met the animal before, maybe borrowed it for the day, or it's a horse you've bet on, etc. Same in German.

But unlike English you end up with some neuter nouns for people - das Kind, das Baby, das Mädchen (child, baby,girl), where the rule seems to be if they are small enough to carry or the context is impersonal, saying 'es' (it) is fine - whereas Brits generally don't call even a baby of unknown sex 'it'. We got into the discussion thanks to the Causacasian Chalk Circle where there's a reverse-Solomon case about who a small boy should belong to, and Grusche says "Es ist meins" - it (he) is mine, I raised him. Apparently perfectly normal speech. But as soon as he is an active subject in the sentence, he gets 'er' - he can wash himself, etc.

Same concept, different position for the dividing line. (next, figure out when a Bekannte (acquaintance) becomes a Freund, friend...)

 

[Bubo_bubo]

In the dialect of my hometown (between Dutch and German) we do actually often refer to girls/women as it since a fair number of words referring to women or girls are neuter (eg for 'girl', maedje, wicht), but the same is true for Flemish in general, but there pronouns are more according to underlying gender of the person, rather than grammatical gender of the word (so even if 'girl' meisje is neuter, you'd still use female pronouns to refer to a girl). Language is weird and interesting.

 

[Phantom300]

How to write women:

I think of a man, and I take away reason and accountability
-Melvin Udall As Good As It Gets

 

[LilyWaters]

I have read some wonderful erotica by male writers who are writing from the female POV, here and elsewhere. I think if the writer has a real interest in and sensitivity to the woman's experience, that's the key.

 

[Bramblethorn]

How to write women:

I think of a man, and I take away reason and accountability
-Melvin Udall As Good As It Gets

Almost as profound as this:

But this ship can't sink, sir!
-Bruce Ismay Titanic

 

[LdyHoneybee]

Ze is pronounced like “zee” can also be spelled zie or xe, and replaces she/he/they. Hir is pronounced like “here” and replaces her/hers/him/his/they/theirs.

ASexual, (not as used in biology) applied to a person means a person who has no interest in sex one way or another. They have friends and don't have lovers of either sex, they are not attracted to their sex sexually or the other sexy. I supposed if you applied it as a gender you could use it as a pronoun.

Ah. I did not know there was a pronoun. Thanks!

 

[MillieDynamite]

It isn't, but you could make it one. The way I have heard it used, "No, thank you, I'm asexual." By a friend who at least claims to be asexual.

 

[LdyHoneybee]

Asking when you don't know something isn't dumb! I think you already know some of this but it's easier if I just write the whole thing, apologies for stuff you already know.

In English, the usual pronouns are "he"/"him" for somebody who's male, and "she"/"her" for somebody who's female. (Two forms for each, because English pronouns vary depending on whether the person is subject or object: "he saw me" but "I saw him". We might need up to five different forms to cover other things like reflexive and possessive use, but it's usually easy to figure out the others once you have subject and object.)

Sometimes it's useful to have other options:

- Talking about somebody whose gender is unknown ("somebody left a note for you, but they didn't sign it")
- Talking about a generic somebody when we don't want to specify a gender ("if anybody wants to come tomorrow, they have to pay in advance")
- Talking about somebody who doesn't fit comfortably into that male/female binary (non-binary).

As in the examples above, English has used singular "they"/"them" for centuries in the unknown/generic cases. In my experience it's also by far the most common choice for non-binary people who don't use "he" or "she", and it's generally accepted as a polite option when you don't know somebody's preferences - "I'd like to thank your friend Jan, can you tell me their pronouns?"

But over the years, going back to at least the 18th century, a lot of people have had a go at coming up with new options for non-binary pronouns in English. (Some history on that here - even A.A. Milne had a go!) These are collectively called "neopronouns". A lot of those inventions never took off or got abandoned, but one of the older options that's still around is "ze"/"hir" (rhyming with "he"/"she" and "fear"), first proposed in 1864.

I haven't seen the reasons for that particular choice, but I think it was meant to fall halfway between "he"/"him" and "she"/"her". "Ze" has the same "e" sound, and "zir" sounds a little bit like "her" while having the "i" of "him" (but pronounced differently). However, some folk feel that it falls a bit closer to female than male, especially since "ze" sounds very like German for "she".

So there are various other options around. That said, AFAIK anything beyond "he", "she", and "they" is pretty uncommon; my social circle has a lot of non-binary folk and while there are dozens of "they"s, I can only think of one "ze" and none of the other options.



There is "it", but this isn't one to use on a human unless they have said it's okay. Usually it'd be seen as a dehumanising slur, since it's often used that way against trans people and others.

(One of my favourite fictional characters, Martha Wells' Murderbot, goes by "it". But that pronoun is chosen deliberately to emphasise that Murderbot doesn't want to be human, even if it has human friends.)

I am a native English speaker, so I knew the basics. However, thank you for the interesting story about xe/hir. I have read about those individuals in history (most notably, I have decided, TE Lawrence) but i never knew there was a pronoun, let alone the linguistic history you provided. I would never call a human “it.” I do not even like calling animals “it“ even though I know it is grammatical, usually just repeating the noun. The various uses of “it” in English imply that “it“ is not even a living being. Thanks!

 

[oggbashan]

If the male writer is sufficiently competent, how would you know?

Lit allows you to present as a male. or as a female or both. Do you really know if a male is writing as a female?

 

[LdyHoneybee]

How to write women:

I think of a man, and I take away reason and accountability
-Melvin Udall As Good As It Gets

You are breeding a scab, buddy.

 

[MillieDynamite]

If the male writer is sufficiently competent, how would you know?

Lit allows you to present as a male. or as a female or both. Do you really know if a male is writing as a female?

There is software out there somewhere in the internet world, which past text into (or type into) and from the way you write, the words you use, and to a degree, the subject you are writing about says your a certain percent male and certain percent female. Making an educated guess as to whether you are a man or female, which depends on the percentage of male writing to female writing. That is in its estimation. I can't remember the IP for it, or I'd post it. We have this discussion in depth some time back and this app came up in the discussion.