OMG One Bombs!

[Lifestyle66]

@lifestyle, these statements of yours can’t all be true at the same time. How about we go with (to be generous) “miswrote” and not “misread.” Except the second answer where you were seemingly backpedaling is the outlier. You wrote these within the span of a few hours.

You are free to do what you want. This isn’t about critiquing your approach. This is about “pick just one.”

1. “With my own rating methodology, I give a 5 to a story only if it's rather well written AND with subject matter I enjoy and prefer.”
2. “I don't prejudge stories and limit my ratings. I use my general guide as "I won't hate or average your story, just because I don't usually like those types."
3. “I essentially reserve my 5s for those stories I would like to attract others to read due to my own preferences.”

I see what you mean, and I stand corrected.

In May, I read a story from Scifi & Fantasy here on LitE (RED TSONIA & THE WITCH IN THE DARK), which is a category I rarely visit. It was posted for the Geek Pride challenge, and I rated it a 5. So, in this case, you would be correct in that I violated that #1 rule.

Might I say, "I try to not prejudge stories, and I do read stories from categories outside of my usual preferences." But I used my 5 there because I thought it a story worthy of attracting other readers of my same mind and preferences.

 

[tenyari]

You are asking us to first assume every story is perfect and pleasing us in every way, then look for the flaws. Think about it. That's basically asking the readers to serve you.

I read for my own reasons. And if you allow voting, then accept the votes as reasoned by the people clicking those stars.

No.

I'm telling you to be aware of what your actions work to achieve.

If you push a rock down a hill, it will do down the hill. You cannot live in denial of this fact,

Because of the way the ranking system works here, any vote other than a 5 is pushing that rock down the hill - slowly or rapidly shadow banning that story. Be aware of the impact of your actions.

The implied intent of a 4 vote and a 1 vote is the same, as their effect is the same; only the degree is different. That's a flaw in the design, that care nothing for your personal standards, intentions, etc.


I understand where you're coming from, and personally agree with your method. I am just noting that the site works against us using a more rational way of voting. People who make thought out quality based votes hurt authors...

 

[Lifestyle66]

People who make thought out quality based votes hurt authors...

And here's where I disagree.

Those authors obsessed with obtaining the red H or maintaining a rating above 4.5 have their ways of rapidly logging on when the story is first published and rating it themselves with multiple anonymous 5s from multiple browsers and multiple computers. They can give themselves twenty or thirty 5s within an hour or two.

So, what is it that you are asking me to do? On a scale of 1 to 5, with 1 being "Hate it" and 5 being "Loved it", are you suggesting I must love every story?

Maybe we need to take a step back and recognize not everyone will LOVE our work, and some might just LIKE it.

I once tried that "I'll give it a 5 to offset the 1-bomb haters." My next story then contained a comment "I'll give it a 1 to offset the 5s!"

 

[MelissaBaby]

And here's where I disagree.

Those authors obsessed with obtaining the red H or maintaining a rating above 4.5 have their ways of rapidly logging on when the story is first published and rating it themselves with multiple anonymous 5s from multiple browsers and multiple computers. They can give themselves twenty or thirty 5s within an hour or two.

So, what is it that you are asking me to do? On a scale of 1 to 5, with 1 being "Hate it" and 5 being "Loved it", are you suggesting I must love every story?

Maybe we need to take a step back and recognize not everyone will LOVE our work, and some might just LIKE it.

I once tried that "I'll give it a 5 to offset the 1-bomb haters." My next story then contained a comment "I'll give it a 1 to offset the 5s!"

All I ask is an honest rating. Not to be that bitch, but I an confident that with honest ratings, I will get a red H. I've been right 64 times out of 65.

And, yeah, I care about that. I've been here 5 years and don't have 500 followers (Getting close, though...) I don't write in the popular categories. I don't write stroke stories. The red H is how I draw attention to my writing.

As for one bombs, I accept that some people just hate what I write. But I do not believe that more than about one out of a hundred one bombs is legit, as I define it. Most are "I don't like you" "I don't like the category" "I don't like stories with strong female leads""I don't want you to get a higher score than my favorite" "I'm just being a dick because it's fun". None of those are helpful to me as a writer or to other readers looking for a story to enjoy.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

I understand where you're coming from, and personally agree with your method. I am just noting that the site works against us using a more rational way of voting. People who make thought out quality based votes hurt authors...

That's why I refuse to vote. Since the only thing that matters is a 5 or not a 5, anything under a 5 sucks. So to me, to give an honestly appraised 4 would be a good thing, yet it would still hurt the author, so there's no point. The voting system is nothing more than a popularity contest because it is inherently designed to be a popularity contest.

Again, your score has absolutely nothing to do with how good your work is.

 

[ElectricBlue]

And here's where I disagree.

Those authors obsessed with obtaining the red H or maintaining a rating above 4.5 have their ways of rapidly logging on when the story is first published and rating it themselves with multiple anonymous 5s from multiple browsers and multiple computers. They can give themselves twenty or thirty 5s within an hour or two.

Evidence of people doing that, where?

Those votes won't stick, anyway. That's why the site does sweeps. A "helpful five" disappears, just like a trolling one-bomb does.

Any rating system with a sliding scale of one through five, when it's used by thousands of people, each with their own rating criteria, tells you something. What you do with that information is up to the individual, but the scale is far better than a binary thumbs up, thumbs down system, which is the only alternative I can see.

 

[Duleigh]

What you do with that information is up to the individual, but the scale is far better than a binary thumbs up, thumbs down system, which is the only alternative I can see.

OR you can count thumbs up/thumbs down Ternary rather than Binary, because you still have zero, a null vote. For purely binary you can just have a thumbs up, nothing else (like YouTube). Take the number of votes, divide that by the number of VIEWS then multiply the result by 100 and come up with a vote ratio and call that your score, a 5 would be smokin' hot!

That's the kind of thing that happens when I click on excel and start playing with the CSV you can download from you WORKS page

 

[ElectricBlue]

That's why I refuse to vote. Since the only thing that matters is a 5 or not a 5, anything under a 5 sucks. So to me, to give an honestly appraised 4 would be a good thing, yet it would still hurt the author, so there's no point. The voting system is nothing more than a popularity contest because it is inherently designed to be a popularity contest.

Again, your score has absolutely nothing to do with how good your work is.

Not absolutely nothing. It's an indicator of something, that's why stories end up with such a wide range of scores - as a consequence of thousands of people ranking stories, each using whatever criteria they choose. That must mean something, when you average out human behaviour with a large enough data set - and Lit is a huge data set.

I expect there's a wide range of criteria people use when scoring - I don't think anyone's criteria will be the same as the next person's, and I don't think it's always binary, "five good, one bad". I usually score any story I finish, nowadays, and I'll give 3 or a 4 or a 5, but I'll never score a story I don't finish.

I never expect a "perfect five" - and when I look at the range of scores my stories get (with just over a hundred chapters/stand alone stories, I've got a reasonable sized sample pool), I'd say, overall, the scores are a fairly accurate ranking of my story quality - as I judge my own writing quality.

 

[ElectricBlue]

OR you can count thumbs up/thumbs down Ternary rather than Binary, because you still have zero, a null vote. For purely binary you can just have a thumbs up, nothing else (like YouTube). Take the number of votes, divide that by the number of VIEWS then multiply the result by 100 and come up with a vote ratio and call that your score, a 5 would be smokin' hot!

That's the kind of thing that happens when I click on excel and start playing with the CSV you can download from you WORKS page

Yes, I've tried to figure out ways to include Vote per View factors into it somewhere, but that's where my brain falls over and I need someone to do it for me.

 

[SimonDoom]

That's why I refuse to vote. Since the only thing that matters is a 5 or not a 5, anything under a 5 sucks. So to me, to give an honestly appraised 4 would be a good thing, yet it would still hurt the author, so there's no point. The voting system is nothing more than a popularity contest because it is inherently designed to be a popularity contest.

Again, your score has absolutely nothing to do with how good your work is.

This would only be true if everyone voted like you. And that should tell you something about your voting philosophy: your voting philosophy ensures that voting means nothing. Why follow such a philosophy? Doesn't make much sense to me.

Fortunately, not everyone votes the way you do. People vote for many, many different reasons, using many different criteria. If there are enough votes, the resulting score means more than nothing. It's not a perfect system, but it's something. Just like every other rating system for everything else.

 

[Lifestyle66]

Evidence of people doing that, where?

Those votes won't stick, anyway. That's why the site does sweeps. A "helpful five" disappears, just like a trolling one-bomb does.

Any rating system with a sliding scale of one through five, when it's used by thousands of people, each with their own rating criteria, tells you something. What you do with that information is up to the individual, but the scale is far better than a binary thumbs up, thumbs down system, which is the only alternative I can see.

Have you ever read a story on LitE and asked yourself; "How could this piece of poor grammar, misspellings, and lack of a coherent plot or ending ever scored above 3?"

And when getting into a spirited exchange here on the forums results in ALL of my stories being bombed within an hour, are you telling us that's just a coincidence? And anyone using such 1-bomb attacks would as likely prop up their own ego on their own stories.

As this very thread has shown, some authors seem to believe they deserve a 5 or the rater has attacked them. Maintaining their 4.5 red H obscures the fact someone just gave them a "Like it", and they resent that jerk for daring to rate their story.

If the scoring system is unfair, then that's an issue to take up with the site Admins and design, not the readers.

 

[lovecraft68]

I read outside my comfort zone all the time. I read stories from most of the categories on the site. This isn't saying I rate them all at a 5; I don't. To rate a story, I judge three factors, is the story well written, engaging, and did I enjoy the tale? Ratings are dependent on varying degrees of each criterion. If it is enjoyable enough and engaging enough, I can overlook some sloppy writing. I don't expect perfect grammar. What I want in the well-written category is text to pull me into the moment. The minute I see something like, "She had perfect 36D boobies," I stop reading. I consider fixations on measurements of a woman's body as lazy writing. In the Commodores' song, Brick House, I cringe when they sing Thirty-six, twenty-four, thirty-six oh what a winning hand. Why? Because it totally screws up my appreciation of the woman. My mind wonders who took those measurements. Are they sure it isn't 37 28 39?

I also read from every category to help me improve as a writer.

I don't read that much here, between time, and the fact if I'm in the middle of my story, other people's writing messes with my head. I admit I don't have a varied interest in categories, I like what I like, and I've watched so much visual porn over the years that I've explored most kinks that way, so I know what I wouldn't care for, or would, here.

What I do read I base my vote on story, did it pull me in, move along? I'm easy with grammar, unless its so bad I have to keep rereading a line to figure it out, I don't care. I am a dialogue snob. If I read something and it makes me think "No one speaks like that" It affects my enjoyment. Sex scenes I rate by did they manage not to be repetitive and a 5 if any one thing during it makes me say "oh, wow" a position, a line of dialogue, a good descriptive. If I get to the end they get a 5 and that's because since I don't like to waste time I am known for simply bailing at the first sign of it being boring or some dumb speedbump.

I want to add, I am more likely to write out of my comfort zone, than read in it, which is odd because reading can help you get it and write it, but I like to pull from within and use my imagination "Okay, you're this person, this is the set up, the kink...Go!" I've had some surprising successes and some total flops.

I mentioned this somewhere recently, but within a short period of time, I received a dare of put up or shut up about a certain category and not long before that a friend challenged me to write as far out of my personal experience as possible. The story was in BDSM, the MC a female black dominatrix from the impoverished rural south. Being a white guy born and raised on the East Coast the only thing I had down were the BDSM elements, but the story, her persona, motivations etc were all based on this is her now, how'd she get there?"

Did fairly well here, but every once in awhile I try to get someone who would be able to identify more with my MC to give it a read and give me feedback, but its a long piece.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

but the scale is far better than a binary thumbs up, thumbs down system, which is the only alternative I can see.

Actually, thumbs up thumbs down would be a better system as you can interpret the the thumbs up as likes and the thumbs down as dislikes quite accurately. You can also compute ratios of those against total reads. With the number system that lit uses with the red H, even a good score of 4 hurts your total score and keeps your precious red H away. A 4 to one person means something completely different to one voter than it does to another. As does any other score one might give. Otherwise you just give 5s to anything that you might otherwise simply give thumbs-up just not to hurt someone's score even if it's far from perfect. As one person's 4 is different than another's, a thumbs-up is a thumbs-up. It's a far more accurate account of opinions.

Not absolutely nothing. It's an indicator of something, that's why stories end up with such a wide range of scores - as a consequence of thousands of people ranking stories, each using whatever criteria they choose. That must mean something, when you average out human behaviour with a large enough data set - and Lit is a huge data set.

Like you say, they all use whatever criteria they choose, of which the author has no privy to, so impossible to really interpret. So one story gets a 4.4 and another a 4.6. That tells you absolutely nothing as to which one is actually better, only which one is more popular.

This would only be true if everyone voted like you. And that should tell you something about your voting philosophy: your voting philosophy ensures that voting means nothing. Why follow such a philosophy? Doesn't make much sense to me.

Fortunately, not everyone votes the way you do. People vote for many, many different reasons, using many different criteria. If there are enough votes, the resulting score means more than nothing. It's not a perfect system, but it's something. Just like every other rating system for everything else.

Thanks for the condescension. How shall I repay you? Shall I give your stories all honest 3s and 4s and drag you below the red H level then?

 

[ElectricBlue]

If the scoring system is unfair, then that's an issue to take up with the site Admins and design, not the readers.

That's my point - it IS the readers doing the scoring, using whatever criteria they choose (including, in your case, vociferous one-bomb attacks - but you do write in LW, which is lobby group all its own).

I don't have a problem with the scoring system - as I say, it's the outcome of thousands of people voting however they want to vote, and overall, that means something.

 

[ElectricBlue]

Like you say, they all use whatever criteria they choose, of which the author has no privy to, so impossible to really interpret. So one story gets a 4.4 and another a 4.6. That tells you absolutely nothing as to which one is actually better, only which one is more popular.

Why do you keep asserting "more popular"?

Using my own data sample set, some of my highest scoring stories have very low View counts, in comparison to other stories, so where does "popularity" fit in with that?

"Popularity" meaning what, precisely? Popular author? In comparison with many here, I'm not popular (as measured by followers). Popular story? I don't write in the most popular categories (incest and LW), so there's no measure there.

At the end of the day, with a hundred or so stories getting voted on, in (at last count) seventeen different categories (each with their own unique cohorts), and my own awareness of my writing ability, my set of scores tell me something about my stories - I'm getting feedback of a limited sort, and it all tells me how readers perceive my content. To me, that's a quality indicator, however limited it might be. It's better than nothing - but it's still only one percent, which is a little higher than "irrelevant", but not by much.

 

[NotWise]

Like you say, they all use whatever criteria they choose, of which the author has no privy to, so impossible to really interpret. So one story gets a 4.4 and another a 4.6. That tells you absolutely nothing as to which one is actually better, only which one is more popular.

I don't think there's much agreement on what "better" means. You may as well go with "popular."

 

[Voboy]

Not absolutely nothing. It's an indicator of something, that's why stories end up with such a wide range of scores - as a consequence of thousands of people ranking stories, each using whatever criteria they choose. That must mean something, when you average out human behaviour with a large enough data set - and Lit is a huge data set.

One thing I will, say, based on over 20 years of reading here: other than in LW, which is Bizarro World, the scores generally do an okay job (to MY eyes) of indicating relative writing quality.

Meaning, if I click on a story with a 2.4 rating, I can pretty much figure out within the first paragraph or so why it got that rating. Same for a story with a red H: they're generally all readable without getting distracted by egregious grammar or syntax errors. Over the years, my own reader-level assessment of the Lit rating system has been validated enough that I typically won't click on a story rated under 4, and I'll have a good idea that I'll be able to get through what I click on.

The scores do mean something. They don't always mean what we wish they did, but they mean something.

 

[MelissaBaby]

Why do you keep asserting "more popular"?

Using my own data sample set, some of my highest scoring stories have very low View counts, in comparison to other stories, so where does "popularity" fit in with that?

"Popularity" meaning what, precisely? Popular author? In comparison with many here, I'm not popular (as measured by followers). Popular story? I don't write in the most popular categories (incest and LW), so there's no measure there.

At the end of the day, with a hundred or so stories getting voted on, in (at last count) seventeen different categories (each with their own unique cohorts), and my own awareness of my writing ability, my set of scores tell me something about my stories - I'm getting feedback of a limited sort, and it all tells me how readers perceive my content. To me, that's a quality indicator, however limited it might be. It's better than nothing - but it's still only one percent, which is a little higher than "irrelevant", but not by much.

The most read story on this site has almost 13 million views and a 4.41 rating

The Adventures of Ranger Ramona: 4.83 rating, 11,464 views

The Gold Dollar Girls: 4.81 rating, 12,981 views

It's going to be a hard sell trying to convince me there is a correlation between ratings and popularity.

 

[SimonDoom]

Thanks for the condescension. How shall I repay you? Shall I give your stories all honest 3s and 4s and drag you below the red H level then?

I wasn't condescending to you. I disagreed with you, and that's different. I don't believe voting means nothing. If you choose not to vote, then the meaninglessness of voting becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. That's your choice. But it doesn't mean that voting and scores mean nothing, and if you pay enough attention to scores you will see that's so.

You can do whatever you like with your voting power, but if you choose to exercise it by retaliating against those who have different opinions from yours it speaks poorly for you. That's not something I would ever do to you, or to anyone else.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

I wasn't condescending to you.

How was this statement not condescension?

Fortunately, not everyone votes the way you do.

Nice backtrack. But anyways,

You can do whatever you like with your voting power, but if you choose to exercise it by retaliating against those who have different opinions from yours it speaks poorly for you. That's not something I would ever do to you, or to anyone else.

But I don't do that. I said so a couple of posts back. I said it clearly. Yet you don't like the fact that I don't vote, as per your quote. So get back to me when you sort all of the contradictions from your position.

 

[Wannabeauthor]

This whole discussion is like giving publicity to a mall shooter. Yes, one-bombers are rampant and annoying, but consider the life of someone who spends copious amounts of time jumping in and out of various accounts/devices/locations/ISP’s/VPNs in order to bomb other people‘s stories. It’s really sad. And pointless. Sweeps eventually get most of the bombs, and even if they don’t, what are you getting? At most, I guess, a higher, undeserved place on a top list.

I’m fortunate enough (trigger warning: humble brag) to have a few stories (under another account, obvs) that occasionally jump to the first page of a top list after a sweep. Four or five of them occasionally place in the top five, no doubt due to other bombing. And they are bombed within, at most, 48 hours. They don’t have a lot of votes so they are easily bumped down to 4.79, which seems to satisfy everyone. But still… I know they are good stories because I see the post-sweep scores, and that’s really all the satisfaction any of us should need. If you were looking for actual fame, you’d be doing something else.

But I worry about those people who spend so much time and assiduous attention on their trade of shooting down other people’s efforts. They need help. They should see a therapist or get a better hobby or a friend or a life. Something constructive. At least, I suppose, it’s keeping them out of the malls.

 

[EarlyMorningLight]

Oof. I’m seeing it happen in real time on my latest story. The last 20 or so votes (out of 135 so far) have pretty much all been ones. After reaching a peak of 4.86 after about 15 hours up, it’s been pushed down to 4.79 in less than two.

 

[KeithD]

Oof. I’m seeing it happen in real time on my latest story. The last 20 or so votes (out of 135 so far) have pretty much all been ones. After reaching a peak of 4.86 after about 15 hours up, it’s been pushed down to 4.79 in less than two.

20 one votes are going to take you a hell of a lot lower than 4.79. You'll find it hard to get sympathy for being reduced to a 4.79 to begin with.

 

[mirafrida]

20 one votes are going to take you a hell of a lot lower than 4.79. You'll find it hard to get sympathy for being reduced to a 4.79 to begin with

Totally agree with this - 4.79 sounds like the stratosphere to me.

But it does seem to me like there are runs that strike one as "suspicious."

Of course, one also tends to see positive runs as "well merited" so there's definitely observer bias involved.

But I would say a common pattern for me (though not always) is to have a story very consistently well-rated and "H" on day one, then hammered down to below 4 on day 2, and gradually approaching asymptotically closer to 4.4 for the rest of eternity. Why does that happen on day 2? Do a group of people say "bleh, there's no way THAT story should be H" and dink it particularly harshly? And if so, is that a "legitimate" response to the fact that a lot of people liked it on day one? I have no idea.

Or, perhaps it's just random noise that I'm imposing a pattern on...

 

[EarlyMorningLight]

Totally agree with this - 4.79 sounds like the stratosphere to me.

But it does seem to me like there are runs that strike one as "suspicious."

Of course, one also tends to see positive runs as "well merited" so there's definitely observer bias involved.

But I would say a common pattern for me (though not always) is to have a story very consistently well-rated and "H" on day one, then hammered down to below 4 on day 2, and gradually approaching asymptotically closer to 4.4 for the rest of eternity. Why does that happen on day 2? Do a group of people say "bleh, there's no way THAT story should be H" and dink it particularly harshly? And if so, is that a "legitimate" response to the fact that a lot of people liked it on day one? I have no idea.

Or, perhaps it's just random noise that I'm imposing a pattern on...

Yeah, it’s absolutely not a score to complain about. Should have given the context that the current highest-scoring story in the category for the last 30 days is 4.85, so seeing my score briefly hit 4.86 before tumbling down again was a rollercoaster.