help, please, on Shakespearian conjugations

[GrushaVashnadze]

Can anyone confirm for me what the second person singular simple past tense would have been in the sixteenth century for the verb "to rend". "Rendedst"? "Rentst"?

Help!

 

[oggbashan]

In Engliſh there is no Change at all made of the Verbs; except in

The Second Perſon Singular of the Preſent Tenſe, and in the Second Perſon Singular of the Preter Tenſe, which Perſons are diſtinguiſhed by the Addition of eſt; as, thou burneſt, thou readeſt, thou burned'ſt, thou loved'ſt.

 

[GrushaVashnadze]

In Engliſh there is no Change at all made of the Verbs; except in

The Second Perſon Singular of the Preſent Tenſe, and in the Second Perſon Singular of the Preter Tenſe, which Perſons are diſtinguiſhed by the Addition of eſt; as, thou burneſt, thou readeſt, thou burned'ſt, thou loved'ſt.

Thank you!
So, therefore, "thou rentst"? Or "thou rendedst"??

 

[AlinaX]

From 1862:

Young's Literal Translation
And thou, O spoiled one, what dost thou? For thou puttest on scarlet, For thou adornest thyself with ornaments of gold. For thou rendest with pain thine eyes, In vain thou dost make thyself fair, Kicked against thee have doting ones, Thy life they do seek.

 

[HectorBidon]

According to https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/rended, the earliest appearance of "rended" was in the work of Thomas Rogers (c1553–1616). So I would think that "rent" is the more traditional past tense. "Rended" is not even given as an alternate past tense in some online dictionaries. (Note that AlinaX's citation is, I think, in the present tense, not past."

The Wikipedia entry for "English Verbs / Archaic Forms" says "In [most] verbs, the [second person] past tense is formed by the base past tense form of the word ... plus-'st, not pronounced as a full syllable," and gives examples had'st, did'st, and listened'st, in line with Ogg's recommendations. However, the entry for "Thou" says "The e in the ending is optional; early English spelling had not yet been standardized," and gives examples knewest, drovest, madest (from made), and lovedst.

So, based on this, I might go with "rent'st," or "rentst."

 

[AlinaX]

Hmm, then why not just "Thou hast rent" rather than forcing an awkward word.

 

[Voboy]

Hmm, then why not just "Thou hast rent" rather than forcing an awkward word.

This. Beware the dreaded awkword.

KISS.

 

[SimonDoom]

Hmm, then why not just "Thou hast rent" rather than forcing an awkward word.

It's not the same tense.

"Thou hast rent" is present perfect tense.

"Thou rended" is the simple past tense. I'm not sure when "rent" was appropriate but "thou rent" would be the alternative, I suppose.

But my advice to the OP is this: Don't worry too much about trying to make sure dialogue or narrative conforms to the norms of the time. This is NOT the way fiction usually is handled. It's far too difficult to write accurately, and it's hard to understand. If you try to do it, chances are you won't do it consistently and the results will be a mish mash.

 

[SimonDoom]

The King James Bible (1611) uses "rent" as the simple past form of the verb, rather than "rended." So if you are determined to conform to the historical usage that's probably the right term.

2 Kings 22:11: “And it came to pass, when the king had heard the words of the book of the law, that he rent his clothes.” King James Version (KJV)

 

[SimonDoom]

Here's a useful source: opensourceshakespeare.org. You can do a word search through the database of his works.

"Rent" as the past tense of "to rend" appears in Coriolanus, Act V, scene 2.

 

[AlinaX]

Hmm... or hymn... No. 182, to be specific:

Great God! before thou rent'st the veil
Of darkness from my soul
How did my persecuting heart,
In spiteful torrents roll!

 

[SimonDoom]

Hmm... or hymn... No. 182, to be specific:

Interesting example.

Streeter was born in 1783, so his usage isn't indicative of what was happening in the 16th century.

But another interesting thing is that I researched it and I found another version of that poem that used "rent" rather than "rent'st." The volume you cited appears to be dated 1810. I haven't unearthed enough information yet to determine which version is the original or "authoritative" version.

It's a poetic use, too, so it isn't necessarily evidence of the form of the word that was used in an every day sense then.

 

[AlinaX]

In Shakespeare's day, there wouldn't have been an authoritative, everyday use.

 

[SimonDoom]

In Shakespeare's day, there wouldn't have been an authoritative, everyday use.

This is a great point. There was no authoritative dictionary at that time. I think dictionaries were still over 150 years in the future. It sounds like heresy to say it, but some of the time Shakespeare was just makin' shit up. It's part of what made him great.

 

[AlinaX]

Looking at the OED, both 'rended' and 'rent' were in use in the 16th Century, with 'rente' sometimes being an earlier spelling. No examples given with thou, except "thou didst then rend" and "thou shalt not [...] rend" from Shakespeare.

 

[000zing]

Yep, "thou didst rend" looks about right to me.

 

[GrushaVashnadze]

Thank you, all. As I said in my original post, I was specifically looking for "second person singular simple past tense" - for which there seems to be evidence for both "rendedst" and "rentst" From now on, I will, like Shakespeare - as SimonDoom suggests - "make shit up". Gratias.