If Biden says Putin has to go

[pecksniff]

How is that any more controversial, presumptuous or objectionable than W saying the same thing about Saddam Hussein? We already have established precedent for demanding "regime change" in a foreign country. And yet some people are reacting as if Biden has crossed a line by even mentioning the possibility.

 

[LupusDei]

Indeed, he only voiced what almost everyone in his audience was thinking. It was a beautiful and inspirational speech, it's fucking disgrace it's being walked back. It's a simple truth that's the only way this war can ever end.

 

[butters]

they're more 'outraged' about it than the calls for putin's assassination

 

[KeithD]

Putin screwed it up. Regime change is the most logical path out of this with any clarity. I think it's a great idea to put it on the table. I don't see any reason to mealy mouth about it in some sort of diplomatic terms at this point.

 

[LupusDei]

If Putin was the macho he's playing, he should, like, shoot himself on live TV. But he's a coward with "exaggerated self-preservation instinct" unable to make decisions that aren't "forced" on him by imaginary (or not) outside forces. That's also where his conspiracy theorist mindset comes from.

 

[Champakian]

Saddam didn't have the nuclear capability to make sure W. experienced "regime change."

Saddam was a flea-bite.
Putin is the lock-jaw of a Pit Bull...

I would hope that you're adult enough to acknowledge that your President had a senior moment.
This isn't "that's just Joe" challenging Trump out to the playground for a thrashing...

He thought he was so clever then and y'all gave him a pass,
and then you put him in charge of the nukes.


*woof* *woof* Ginger

 

[Champakian]

Indeed, he only voiced what almost everyone in his audience was thinking. It was a beautiful and inspirational speech, it's fucking disgrace it's being walked back. It's a simple truth that's the only way this war can ever end.

When you find a badger in your backyard,
you do not confront it. No good can come of it...

 

[icanhelp1]

Indeed, he only voiced what almost everyone in his audience was thinking. It was a beautiful and inspirational speech, it's fucking disgrace it's being walked back. It's a simple truth that's the only way this war can ever end.

That was Biden’s emotional response as bravado as it was but it’s going to end up being used as propaganda for Putin’s masses. We’re trying to win over the Russian people. Russians are already feeling the sting of sanctions.

 

[Chobham]

In the world of realpolitik there is always the possibility that Russia will withdraw, even if remote, and Putin will remain in power. Which means that you will have to negotiate with Putin. Calling for his removal from power, as logical as that is, essentially poison's any possibility of negotiations. Biden being right does NOT mean that he was wise and that's why the walk-back.

Tying in another thread on the subject, that being people bitching about Trump not 'condemning' Putin. The very same reasoning applies. Trump believes that he'll be elected in '24 and if Putin is still in power Trump will have to deal with him. And while Trump being elected may not come to pass and Putin may not survive this ill advised invasion, Trump is acting with wisdom here.

 

[Champakian]

Oh, they're not going to like seeing anyone say Trump got something right...

Now, you voted for him and are just acting out of butt-hurt.

I get a lot of that...

 

[Chobham]

Emotional responses to real world events rarely work out well.

 

[LupusDei]

I align in opinion with people like Garry Kasparov and Khodorkovsky on this.

 

[Champakian]

It telegraphs weakness. It doesn't even matter what the emotion is.

I mean, at this point, who wouldn't love to play poker with Biden?
Just hand him an ice cream cone and watch him drop his cards...

 

[LittleDixie]

The US has been angling to take out the Soviets/Russians since WW2 ended. Rather than peaceful co-existance, we have postured ourselves in opposition to everything Russia is and has done. We've moved closer and closer to their borders, despite treaties and agreements not to do so. We have enlisted more and more people to join NATO, an organization designed to counter the Russians. We've meddled in their elections (Yeltzin), fought proxy wars against them (Afghanistan, when we funded Bin Laden) and have generally been shitty to them rather than trying to befriend them.

We've been up to our necks in anti-Russian propaganda for decades, and everyone seems to be itching to fight them for some indistinct reason.

This speech is almost 2 hours long. I don't expect anyone to watch it unless they are really wonky, but here's someone who knows what he is talking about.

 

[Champakian]

"We have enlisted more and more people to join NATO, an organization designed to counter the Russians."

How could this possibly happened if Russia were a benign power?

 

[Chobham]

Dixie, Russians are paranoid. They've been paranoid for so long now I believe it's part of their genetic makeup. Probably has to do with the fact that they've been invaded so many times from so many different directions. If NATO didn't exist they'd still be paranoid. While actions by NATO didn't help, NATO is not the root cause.

 

[Champakian]

They behave with the same, "the world is out to get me and everyone is my enemy,"
mental outlook as most of our Liberals here in the States; the Biden Bunker Brigade...

 

[ll74]

The US has been angling to take out the Soviets/Russians since WW2 ended. Rather than peaceful co-existance, we have postured ourselves in opposition to everything Russia is and has done. We've moved closer and closer to their borders, despite treaties and agreements not to do so. We have enlisted more and more people to join NATO, an organization designed to counter the Russians. We've meddled in their elections (Yeltzin), fought proxy wars against them (Afghanistan, when we funded Bin Laden) and have generally been shitty to them rather than trying to befriend them.

We've been up to our necks in anti-Russian propaganda for decades, and everyone seems to be itching to fight them for some indistinct reason.

This speech is almost 2 hours long. I don't expect anyone to watch it unless they are really wonky, but here's someone who knows what he is talking about.

Winner for dumbest take.

The US doesn't owe Russia anything. We're adversaries....that didn't change when the wall fell. And it's gotten worse since Putin has regressed the country away from democracy. The leader of the country refuses to participate in global security unless the rest of the world lets him do whatever the fuck he wants.

I'll reiterate, you should go live there and enjoy your true patriotism. You certainly believe enough of their bullshit.

 

[Champakian]

Case in point...

 

[ll74]

Case in point...

We've given Russia multiple chances to be a part of the gang and they've took advantage of it or flat out pissed all over it at every turn. I don't believe, at this point, there is any ability to be friendlier than we are with them. Russia would certainly need to spend much more time demonstrating their good will. Lord knows no one takes them at their word.....it's like North Korea saying they won't develop nuclear weapons with a handshake.

 

[Champakian]

We, in their eyes, have been inviting them to become a vessel state...

 

[ll74]

We, in their eyes, have been inviting them to become a vessel state...

They've been offered a seat at the table and have pissed all over it. If they want it bad enough, they'll put in the work.....we continue to go the extra mile to negotiate

 

[Champakian]

Does a seat at the table include our military presence on their borders
as if we were wardens and they were prisoners?

It's not a sign of trust...

 

[ll74]

Does a seat at the table include our military presence on their borders
as if we were wardens and they were prisoners?

It's not a sign of trust...

That would be part of the negotiations. Their troops are in Ukraine, which is on NATOs border, not to mention in a foreign country illegally.

Russia has continued to be the aggressor while our actions have continued to be defensive.

 

[Champakian]

Defensive or intimidation?

Or paying out of our pockets to do for Europe what they should be doing and paying for themselves?