There should be more Queer Catigories

[AWhoopsieDaisy]

Any genre can include gay protagonists. But because the default expectation is straight, readers are always surprised to see gay stories in other categories.

As it stands right now the queer catigories are only effective at sorting stories for non-queer readers who consume it as a fetish.

There should be a distinction for queer stories written by or for queer people and duplicate genres to keep readers from acting surprised that a sci-fi story has LGBTQ themes.

So Sci-fi/Fantasy (queer)
BDSM (queer)
Romance (queer)

Or at the very least the additional tags should be visible underneath the summary on the listings

 

[AlinaX]

On the other hand... Let them be surprised! Arguably there shouldn't be distinct gay/lesbian categories.
Advertising stories as by/for queer just enforces separation.

 

[SimonDoom]

Absolutely. But I think the answer is not more categories but to move away from a category-based system to a user-customized system, based on tags. Ultimately, what Literotica should do is create a site where users can set up customized home pages that deliver the kinds of stories they want, based upon tags.

There's no question that gay readers and authors get short-changed with the system as it is, but I don't think more categories is the answer, because it won't work for the site. Too many categories mean too much work and too much balkanization of readers. I hope Literotica ultimately moves to a different model, based on user preferences.

 

[stickygirl]

I sympathise with the OP, and I suspect the original topic headings were made when the number of stories was a couple of thousand, not the oceans of stories at Lit now. I find it irritating that I have to add an explanation at the start of a story to explain this isn't a crossdressing one ( are there actually any of those ? And I'm not happy that cross dressing and trans are lumped together as if they meant the same thing ) and, as is the case with my stories, that my protagonist doesn't have a penis, which is clearly the expectation of most trans story consumers.
Actually in writing this I've convinced myself that 'something ought to be done' to queer & LGBTQ sections. Fuck the Loving Wives bit - that's all blood and guts anyway!

 

[NightPorter]

Personalized home pages are a good idea. Do what some hentai sites do. You have white lists and black lists for tags in your account settings. Tags on the black lists are hidden from the reader where stories with stuff the reader likes to read are promoted on a personalized home page. This one size fits all solution we have currently is very 90's.

 

[AWhoopsieDaisy]

I'm not sure user preference is the best way to go as that's how we get algorithms that sort by safe and popular rather than new and similar.

AO3 has a really good system, making it mandatory for any works with a pairing select a relationship option that's displayed in a little icon next to the listing. So m/m, f/f, straight, multi, and other. It also has similar icons to indicate whether a work is safe for work, whether a work is complete or ongoing and a marker that tells the reader that the work may contain common triggers.

Adding this so at a glance you know what you're getting into is important both for people avoiding queer content and people seeking it out.

 

[stickygirl]

Absolutely. But I think the answer is not more categories but to move away from a category-based system to a user-customized system, based on tags. Ultimately, what Literotica should do is create a site where users can set up customized home pages that deliver the kinds of stories they want, based upon tags.

There's no question that gay readers and authors get short-changed with the system as it is, but I don't think more categories is the answer, because it won't work for the site. Too many categories mean too much work and too much balkanization of readers. I hope Literotica ultimately moves to a different model, based on user preferences.

That sounds a decent solution though I'm not quite sure how that would work... maybe tick boxes of preferences like when you're selecting hardware on a website.
Another point about tags, is that authors ought to be able to edit their tags without having to go through Laurel. Surely as authors it's in our best interests and the readers to be able to edit those?

 

[NightPorter]

A quick improvement would be to move the list of tags to the first page of the story, right at the top. So no one can claim they didn't know what they're getting into when they started reading. This is a big problem for LW as well.

 

[ElectricBlue]

This one size fits all solution we have currently is very 90's.

That's because it was designed using whatever software capability was around in the late nineties. The site was started 22 years ago, and struggles to keep up with current practice content management, especially given the vast archive that is now on the site.

A tag based solution is obviously desirable, but unless someone sends a lot of money, it's not going to happen quickly. Meanwhile, the only thing you can do is learn the site's limitations and idiosyncrasies, and navigate within those.

 

[NotWise]

That's because it was designed using whatever software capability was around in the late nineties. The site was started 22 years ago, and struggles to keep up with current practice content management, especially given the vast archive that is now on the site.

A tag based solution is obviously desirable, but unless someone sends a lot of money, it's not going to happen quickly. Meanwhile, the only thing you can do is learn the site's limitations and idiosyncrasies, and navigate within those.

If you use the new interface, then tags are available at the top right of the story. Click on the tags icon.

You can select stories by tags now. Use the advanced search.

 

[MelissaBaby]

On the other hand... Let them be surprised! Arguably there shouldn't be distinct gay/lesbian categories.
Advertising stories as by/for queer just enforces separation.

On the other hand, if you put queer stories in categories with straight stories, they would get one bombed into oblivion.

 

[AlinaX]

On the other hand, if you put queer stories in categories with straight stories, they would get one bombed into oblivion.

Sadly so.

 

[Bramblethorn]

There should be a distinction for queer stories written by or for queer people and duplicate genres to keep readers from acting surprised that a sci-fi story has LGBTQ themes.

I agree that there's a big difference between stories written for the enjoyment of queer people and stories written to fetishise queer people. I'm not sure whether the category/tag system is the right tool for addressing that, though.

I'm not keen on classifying stories based on the author's sexuality/gender ID here. For one because it's not a great indicator of the content - it might be harder for women to write good non-fetish GM content and it might be harder for cis people to write good trans stories, but some can and do.

Also, because some folk use fiction to figure out their own sexuality/gender ID, trying out ideas to see how they feel. That straight woman writing GM content might be a trans guy who hasn't come to terms with it yet, and forcing people to pigeonhole themselves before they're ready is counterproductive.

I'd be happier with classifying stories on a "fetish vs. non-fetish portrayal" basis, but the catch there is that categorisation is mostly done by the author and I'm not sure how reliable that would be. I've seen more than one thread where an author felt their story was feminist and empowering, and readers strongly disagreed, and I suspect it might be just the same here.

This kind of thing might be better handled by a recommender system: "readers who liked the kind of stories you like, liked this one". That would be a nice addition to Literotica - bit like the "similar stories" thing but a bit smarter - and there should be some off-the-shelf tools that could be used for the purpose, when Manu & co. have the free time to try it.

So Sci-fi/Fantasy (queer)
BDSM (queer)
Romance (queer)

FWIW, SFF seems to be pretty accepting of queer content. My only qualm about posting it there is that some of the readers who are looking for my queer content might not think to look for it in SFF.

On the other hand, if you put queer stories in categories with straight stories, they would get one bombed into oblivion.

Agreed with exceptions - F-F can expect a better reception than M-M. So far I've only had one complaint about my F-F story in Romance, and no bombing that I've noticed.

 

[Kumquatqueen]

On the other hand, if you put queer stories in categories with straight stories, they would get one bombed into oblivion.

That depends on the category, the warnings given, and the type of queer. BDSM is quite happy with women getting it on, though anything with men makes the view count and vote count (so presumably reader count) plummet. I've been pleasantly surprised at m/m suggestions not being a problem in Anal nor EC.

I try to make it obvious from the title or tagline what might be within, though, and often list all the tags and provide a more book-like blurb at the top of my story - the link to see Tags isn't at all obvious if you don't know it's there.

I also suspect a strong overlap between readers detered by any queer content and those who won't read anything in British English - I don't do too badly on the votes but get very few of them.

 

[SexualisPhantasia]

A quick improvement would be to move the list of tags to the first page of the story, right at the top. So no one can claim they didn't know what they're getting into when they started reading. This is a big problem for LW as well.

Yes. That would be helpful. I've made it a habit of pointing things out in the authors note, at the beginning of the chapter. I list different fetishes/ sexual situations that might not fit into the particular general category. I think that helps prevent reader confusion and complaints. It can get tedious doing that every time, but I think it's worth it the effort.

 

[Zeb_Carter]

And here I thought the word "Queer" was now a no-no. I thought everything was gay, lesbian, trans, now. I've reported all your posts with the word "Queer" in them as being offensive to me.

(not really, that words was used exclusively back in the 50s and 60s to describe a gay person of either sex. Well, not a female, she was called a "Dike" no body back then had heard of a lipstick lesbian)

 

[ElectricBlue]

I also suspect a strong overlap between readers detered by any queer content and those who won't read anything in British English - I don't do too badly on the votes but get very few of them.

Writing out of Australia, I use British English, and have had zero comments about that (with just over a million words published), but I do take great care with proper punctuation and grammar, which I think is more important.

In my entry in last year's Mickey Spillane anthology, I deliberately made one of the main sexual episodes a m/m encounter between the tough guy noir lead and a younger bloke, just to see the reaction.

A couple of people commented along the lines of "Not really my scene, that encounter, but other than that, you nailed the noir, good story," which told me: a) that adult readers exist in the EC category; and b) that there was an underbelly of homophobic readers** who in my case down-voted from 5s to 4s - the story took a long time to climb from its opening score of 4.30 to its current 4.64. If that long central scene had been m/f, I reckon the story would be up around 4.84 - it's the same calibre of writing as the rest of my content (42 of my 106 stories/chapters are > 4.70).

** I knew this already, but I just wanted to see what the reaction would be - Lit readers are quite predictable, really, when it comes to their fear of being turned on by gay content. Ooo, how dare you write man on man content without telling me, I might get aroused. Lol .

 

[AlinaX]

And here I thought the word "Queer" was now a no-no.

It was once, and for some people it is still, but by and large it was reclaimed as an umbrella term - but for that very reason there are people who attack it now. Transphobes, biphobes, aphobes, and the like, who dislike being inclusive of minorities they don't belong to, claim loudly that 'queer' is a slur.

Writing out of Australia, I use British English, and have had zero comments about that (with just over a million words published), but I do take great care with proper punctuation and grammar, which I think is more important.

That matches my experience. I may have had one or two comments about my British English, but not many and not for a long time.

 

[drobert44]

oh HELLS yes!!

I dont mind being a queer, gay, sissy, or any term. I dont get offended easily by a word.

https://imgur.com/M4cLX4L

When dating a sissy, CD, or gay, we all laughed at all the silly terms.

 

[windar]

Absolutely. But I think the answer is not more categories but to move away from a category-based system to a user-customized system, based on tags. Ultimately, what Literotica should do is create a site where users can set up customized home pages that deliver the kinds of stories they want, based upon tags.

There's no question that gay readers and authors get short-changed with the system as it is, but I don't think more categories is the answer, because it won't work for the site. Too many categories mean too much work and too much balkanization of readers. I hope Literotica ultimately moves to a different model, based on user preferences.

I completely agree. Author-selected tags are far more informative. Good stories present complex characters who can't be captured with some pre-ordained characters. Blurbs would be very helpful as well (there can be a reasonable length limit), as the five or six word descriptions can't tell you much.

 

[TadOverdon]

In a perfect world, not necessary. In this one, a good idea.

 

[JuanSeiszFitzHall]

I’m a geezer, and this gives me some perspective on the social evolution of certain aspects of sex (at least among Americans in or near cities). The social/sexual history of the past 60 years seems to have trended towards a more diverse environment. Each new generation has grown up in a somewhat more diverse setting than the one previous. This may have affected the outlook, and comfort level, of the people in each generation.

I’ve had occasion to wonder if the latest generation of sexually active adults is less hostile than the ones before, on the subject of cis male bisexuality. To the extent that Literotica readership might indicate attitudes in a larger community, I saw this on a story series I posted late last year. A major plot point was the exploration by a male character, hitherto straight, of his sexual interest in men. It was made clear that this character remained just as interested in women as he had been before. For all I know, this is written all the time in the Gay Male category, but I can compare this series only to my own previous stories, and the responses to them.

The series, posted in Group Sex, had a much larger response than anything else I’ve posted in that category, or on all other series I’ve posted anywhere on the site. The title, “Two Bi Two,” was click-bait for readers interested in both group and bisexuality. Maybe the most significant stat (again, adjusted to the response on all of my stories, which might be considered meager) is that the second of the seven parts has had more than 10k views, not much dropoff after the first part.

Before then, I had agreed with those seeking to add a Bisexual category (although I would call it Bisexual/Bicurious). Now I have data suggesting a large reader interest in the subject, with demand perhaps exceeding supply. My hunch, which I can’t prove, is that the most recent generation of cis men includes many who have lightened up about male bisexuality.

The purpose of this post is not to drive traffic to my stories. If you’re really interested, you can find all of them at the link below, which shows clearly how successful I’m not.

https://www.literotica.com/stories/memberpage.php?uid=5116173&page=submissions

 

[drobert44]

In a perfect world, not necessary. In this one, a good idea.

Tad, you nailed it!

 

[drobert44]

And here I thought the word "Queer" was now a no-no. I thought everything was gay, lesbian, trans, now. I've reported all your posts with the word "Queer" in them as being offensive to me.

(not really, that words was used exclusively back in the 50s and 60s to describe a gay person of either sex. Well, not a female, she was called a "Dike" no body back then had heard of a lipstick lesbian)

Well Zeb, nothing like a tour in the sandbox to sort out what really offends, LOL. It sure aint sex!

 

[SimonDoom]

This kind of thing might be better handled by a recommender system: "readers who liked the kind of stories you like, liked this one". That would be a nice addition to Literotica - bit like the "similar stories" thing but a bit smarter - and there should be some off-the-shelf tools that could be used for the purpose, when Manu & co. have the free time to try it.

I've thought this too, for a while, although I have no knowledge how hard it would be to set up. My thought is that on every Literotica user's home page there would be a link to a new story list that would be generated something like the way Similar Stories lists are generated, and that the user could set it up through the use of preferred tags. The list also would be sensitive, as you say, to the other preferred stories of readers that like the user's preferred stories. It would be updated daily. So it would a customizable tag and preference-based new story list, as opposed to a fixed category-based one. If you like to read bisexual BDSM stories, the Site will feed you stories that fit the bill.

I'm sure others here would have a much better idea how hard or easy that would to set up than I would, but it doesn't seem to me like it would be too hard or be too different from what the site already does.