Pronouns

[JuanSeiszFitzHall]

This may be a touchy subject for some people, but I hope to learn something from the conversation. Many users of the English language try to avert gender specificity in individual personal pronouns by replacing them with plural personal pronouns (they/them/etc.). However well-intended this approach may be, I often find its usage confusing. The meaning of what is written this way is not always clear to me. Because a truly useful language is not forever static, I think the goal of gender-unspecified expression could be achieved by the coinage of new, ungendered, singular personal pronouns. The issue then becomes whether people can agree on what those new pronouns are. (I don’t consider ‘it’ an acceptable substitute, not only because it can be seen as insulting, but also because it doesn’t solve the confusion problem in the composition of English. ‘It’ can be called upon to represent a variety of nouns. ‘It’ isn’t a personal pronoun.)

Here in this Forum, many if not most of us are writers. What are your thoughts on how to navigate the they/them trend in your writing, and whether there should be new pronouns?

https://www.literotica.com/stories/memberpage.php?uid=5116173&page=submissions

 

[AlinaX]

Interestingly, there are some people who ask to use 'it' as their pronoun.

 

[Winter_Fare]

"They" works for me in real life. I use it all the time to avoid embarrassment. It's tough to write with it as a pronoun, as it's necessarily ambiguous, and however carefully you define who in your paragraph is doing/speaking, "they" can get confusing. I don't see haw an uncommon special pronoun would be less confusing to the average reader

 

[MelissaBaby]

Trust me, when you write lesbian stories, pronouns get all fucking confusing!

Isn't that the truth? It's a never ending process of "Wait, which she is she? No, shit, that was wrong, the object of the sentence was her, not her. I think."

 

[Winter_Fare]

The first time I shared my erotic fiction with someone, they said it was basically unreadable due to the five squllion undirected pronouns, not to mention the casual head hopping.

 

[Winter_Fare]

I have a beautiful assassin character in an ongoing work who identifies as they. They are the souls of an entire village, and everyone they ate since. They probably technically count as 'it' in the most unsettling way possible.

 

[Kumquatqueen]

Most of the non-binary people I know prefer they/them if needed, simply for easy recognition. I know one person who likes e/eir/ey but has mostly given up asking for it beyond a signature; similarly zie/zir smacks of turn-of-the-millennium right-on Americans and seems to have died out (perhaps helped by Bechdel's character called Zie? I know a guy called Ze, which doesn't help.

We manage perfectly well in English using the plural you to cover the singular form, despite having thou/thee/thine available, so using the same for third person as well as second shouldnt be any more problematic.

So I'd go with the flow and just use singular they and them, just like Jane Austen and Chaucer. If it causes confusion, recast the sentence, use a noun not a pronoun, just like with any other unclear sentence.

 

[SimonDoom]

They/them/their has been in use for a long time in spoken practice when the gender has been ambiguous, so it actually isn't that big a deal. It's much less revolutionary than some seem to think. It's a much better choice than inventing new pronouns.

 

[Winter_Fare]

This thread is like dubstep... Just waiting for the drop...

 

[BelleCanzuto]

Legit the first thing I do is come up with 'nicknames' like 'the blonde' and 'the taller woman'

I did so something similar with the group sex story i wrote. There was a lot of "the one with the mustache" and "the one with the curly hair".

 

[TadOverdon]

Trust me, when you write lesbian stories, pronouns get all fucking confusing!

Yes, and group sex too. Which him is he? Is that her boob, or hers?

 

[PennameWombat]

Are you asking for usage in stories here? IRL? 'Mainstream' stories? Essay writing? Work emails?

They're different (for me, at least.) IRL I use whatever I'm asked to use. I've never felt 'they/them' was an issue, so have no issues using it. If I'm asked by someone to change my usage toward them, I do so. No need to be an ass about it.

For stories, it depends. Many of my stories are set in the 1960s forward (and some far futures), in which case I use period-appropriate terms. But, even then, I recall using 'they' to refer to a single person (per lady_rush's and others examples) so toss it in now and again. In my stories I see no issues with using whatever pronouns I feel like using based on how my characters see themselves modulo the time frame and setting of the story. It might also depend on the situation, public vs private, etc.

Most of the non-binary people I know prefer they/them if needed, simply for easy recognition. I know one person who likes e/eir/ey but has mostly given up asking for it beyond a signature; similarly zie/zir smacks of turn-of-the-millennium right-on Americans and seems to have died out (perhaps helped by Bechdel's character called Zie? I know a guy called Ze, which doesn't help.

We manage perfectly well in English using the plural you to cover the singular form, despite having thou/thee/thine available, so using the same for third person as well as second shouldnt be any more problematic.

So I'd go with the flow and just use singular they and them, just like Jane Austen and Chaucer. If it causes confusion, recast the sentence, use a noun not a pronoun, just like with any other unclear sentence.

All the above said, this quote describes well my usage and intentions. I recall much of the zie/zir discussion (as I was living in the US at the time) and like many artificial language constructs (Esperanto), it never looked like it would go anywhere.

 

[Bramblethorn]

This may be a touchy subject for some people, but I hope to learn something from the conversation. Many users of the English language try to avert gender specificity in individual personal pronouns by replacing them with plural personal pronouns (they/them/etc.). However well-intended this approach may be, I often find its usage confusing. The meaning of what is written this way is not always clear to me.

Languages often have some degree of ambiguity - e.g. it's not always clear whether "you" is singular or plural. (It used to be plural only, with "thou" being the singular, but for some reason we gave up on that. And don't get me started on German "sie".)

Because a truly useful language is not forever static, I think the goal of gender-unspecified expression could be achieved by the coinage of new, ungendered, singular personal pronouns.

FWIW, there are really two different uses of "they" involved here. One is to refer to a person or persons whose gender isn't known: "somebody broke into my house and they stole my goldfish". The other is to refer to a known person whose gender doesn't fit neatly into a binary. If you really wanted to rationalise usage, you might want different words for those two purposes. That said:

The issue then becomes whether people can agree on what those new pronouns are. (I don’t consider ‘it’ an acceptable substitute, not only because it can be seen as insulting, but also because it doesn’t solve the confusion problem in the composition of English. ‘It’ can be called upon to represent a variety of nouns. ‘It’ isn’t a personal pronoun.)

Here in this Forum, many if not most of us are writers. What are your thoughts on how to navigate the they/them trend in your writing, and whether there should be new pronouns?

From what I've seen, attempts to rationalise the English language on purpose very rarely succeed. How many people have tried to phoneticise English spelling over the last few centuries? And we still have rough, though, through, cough, ...

If people are happiest being called "them", easier just to work with that than to try to sell them on a new pronoun.

 

[Trionyx]

I think back to the days when ‘Ms’ was promoted and rapidly accepted by the majority of the people. I personally wish we could do the same thing now and come up with singular gender neutral pronouns that are acceptable to the majority of the population. I just have trouble swallowing ‘They is…’

 

[Kumquatqueen]

Actually, ‘Ms’ originated in the 50s, and didn’t become popularly accepted until the 80s.

In many places it's still not 'popularly accepted'. In my lifetime French and German have pretty much abolished Mlle or Fräulein, using Madame or Frau as a default for adult women regardless of marital status, but the idea of Ms meaning a divorcée is still prevalent, not to mention every paperwork person whining "is that Miss or Mrs?" but never suggesting (let alone just writing) Ms.

It was very weird suddenly becoming Mrs by default with healthcare workers once I had a baby (we're talking this century). Mrs would probably have taken over if Ms hadn't made inroads previously. The title thing is probably the best reason to do a PhD, if you're female...

 

[Comshaw]

This may be a touchy subject for some people, but I hope to learn something from the conversation. Many users of the English language try to avert gender specificity in individual personal pronouns by replacing them with plural personal pronouns (they/them/etc.). However well-intended this approach may be, I often find its usage confusing. The meaning of what is written this way is not always clear to me. Because a truly useful language is not forever static, I think the goal of gender-unspecified expression could be achieved by the coinage of new, ungendered, singular personal pronouns. The issue then becomes whether people can agree on what those new pronouns are. (I don’t consider ‘it’ an acceptable substitute, not only because it can be seen as insulting, but also because it doesn’t solve the confusion problem in the composition of English. ‘It’ can be called upon to represent a variety of nouns. ‘It’ isn’t a personal pronoun.)

Here in this Forum, many if not most of us are writers. What are your thoughts on how to navigate the they/them trend in your writing, and whether there should be new pronouns?

https://www.literotica.com/stories/memberpage.php?uid=5116173&page=submissions

In my stories, characters are referred to by what they wish to be called, and since those characters come directly from my imagination I, as the storyteller, get to decide how they are addressed. That's how I handle it in a story. In real life it's another bowl of fish. I don't really care what people want to be called. Who am I to dictate that to someone else? It isn't any discomfort to me nor does it harm me in any way to acquiesce to their wishes.

I'm happy to be called a male, him, he, hey you and not so happy but will accept hey asshole! Because of that, it ain't mine to determine the labels others want to put on themselves. What ever it is, once I'm aware of what the wish, I'll be happy to comply.

Besides, maybe we should quit using pronouns all together. Amateur nouns are a whole lot more fun.

 

[gordo12]

This may be a touchy subject for some people, but I hope to learn something from the conversation. Many users of the English language try to avert gender specificity in individual personal pronouns by replacing them with plural personal pronouns (they/them/etc.). However well-intended this approach may be, I often find its usage confusing. The meaning of what is written this way is not always clear to me. Because a truly useful language is not forever static, I think the goal of gender-unspecified expression could be achieved by the coinage of new, ungendered, singular personal pronouns. The issue then becomes whether people can agree on what those new pronouns are. (I don’t consider ‘it’ an acceptable substitute, not only because it can be seen as insulting, but also because it doesn’t solve the confusion problem in the composition of English. ‘It’ can be called upon to represent a variety of nouns. ‘It’ isn’t a personal pronoun.)

Here in this Forum, many if not most of us are writers. What are your thoughts on how to navigate the they/them trend in your writing, and whether there should be new pronouns?

https://www.literotica.com/stories/memberpage.php?uid=5116173&page=submissions

I can't be bothered. They can call themselves what they want. For me, it's he or she.

To me, it's a mark of disrespect when someone expects me to remember their preferred designation. It's a real "ME" moment when they do. It's all about "them!" They need to get over themselves.

 

[MelissaBaby]

I can't be bothered. They can call themselves what they want. For me, it's he or she.

To me, it's a mark of disrespect when someone expects me to remember their preferred designation. It's a real "ME" moment when they do. It's all about "them!" They need to get over themselves.

Do you have a similar objection to doctors expecting to be addressed as Doctor or priests as Father?

 

[SimonDoom]

And, again, because it has come up on a few posts, cis-people should not be trying to decide what gender-neutral pronouns trans-people should use.

As a matter of general principle, I do not agree with the sentiment "You don't get to be part of this conversation because you are a [fill in the blank] person."

A cis-person has no right to tell a trans person what pronouns the trans person should use. But it's not obvious that a trans person has the right to tell a cis-person, "You have to change the way you use the English language and pronouns to accommodate me and the way I want to be referred to."

I suspect that usage WILL change and eventually we will settle on conventions (whatever they are) that most of us accept and it won't be a problem. But it's worth having a civil conversation about, and nobody should be excluded from the conversation.

 

[SimonDoom]

You are right. Transgender people do not have the right to expect even the tiniest effort of respect from you.

That's not what I was saying, and it's quite clear I was not saying that. You should examine your own privilege, because it is radiating in a smug, self-righteous, white-hot way.

 

[Winter_Fare]

What's the difference between "I'm just going to default to Mr or Mrs regardless of people's personal preference" and "I'm just going to call everyone comrade whether they like it or not"?
(asking for a friend)

 

[Winter_Fare]

Or calling all elderly people "dear"?

 

[gordo12]

Do you have a similar objection to doctors expecting to be addressed as Doctor or priests as Father?

Doctors have worked hard and are educated, so I have no problem with the title.

Priests are part of a delusional lying cult, and I think you can figure my answer out to that one.

 

[SimonDoom]

You literally said that you should have a part in the conversation about how other people should be addressed. Your lack of basic respect for humans not just like you is disgusting. Your opinion doesn't always matter, no matter how the world has taught you otherwise. You also don't get to decide how my wife should be addressed, even if you disagree with gay marriage, for example.

We disagree. In my opinion, everybody's opinion matters. Yours, and mine. We all have a right to engage in the dialogue, and I oppose, completely, any person's attempt to shut down another person's right to engage in the conversation. Trying to reframe that as a basic lack of respect for humans is, in my opinion, bizarre and wrong.

 

[Winter_Fare]

No, you think YOUR opinion matters on something that isn't about you.

Nope. OP asked writers for their opinion, asked what they do in life and in their work. Everyone has their own opinion. Everyone carries bruises from other encounters on this topic, clear the effing cache and stop loading innocent statements with malice.