Ukraine's neo-Nazi Azov batallion

[mayfly13]

I listened to Putin's feb.24 speech, and some of his repeated comments "the neo-nazis from Ukraine", "the genocide" seemed the ramblings of a lunatic.

But then I googled it, and Ukraine Indeed has a Nazi military group called the Azov batallion.
And to top it up, the followings.
W.t.f.

Azov Battalion​

"On 12 November 2014, Azov was incorporated into the National Guard of Ukraine, and since then all members are contract soldiers serving in the National Guard of Ukraine.

In 2014, the regiment gained notoriety after allegations emerged of torture and war crimes. In 2018, a provision in an appropriations bill passed by the U.S. Congress blocked military aid to Azov on the grounds of its white supremacist ideology;
More than half of the regiment's members speak Russian and come from eastern Ukraine,[15] including cities of Donetsk and Luhansk."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion#Human_rights_violations_and_war_crimes

 

[ll74]

I listened to Putin's feb.24 speech, and some of his repeated comments "the neo-nazis from Ukraine", "the genocide" seemed the ramblings of a lunatic.

But then I googled it, and Ukraine Indeed has a Nazi military group called the Azov batallion.
And to top it up, the followings.
W.t.f.

"On 12 November 2014, Azov was incorporated into the National Guard of Ukraine, and since then all members are contract soldiers serving in the National Guard of Ukraine.

In 2014, the regiment gained notoriety after allegations emerged of torture and war crimes. In 2018, a provision in an appropriations bill passed by the U.S. Congress blocked military aid to Azov on the grounds of its white supremacist ideology;
More than half of the regiment's members speak Russian and come from eastern Ukraine,[15] including cities of Donetsk and Luhansk."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion#Human_rights_violations_and_war_crimes

So the ones who would fight with the Russians against their country are the ones that Putin says he's going to go after.

Thanks for the data.

 

[oggbashan]

More Russian propaganda. Aren't you tired of being Putin's mouthpiece?

Even your own statement indicates that they are mainly Russian Nazis, not Ukrainian.

 

[Champakian]

From your source:

"In September 2014, the Azov battalion was expanded from a battalion to a regiment and enrolled into the National Guard of Ukraine.[25][35] At this time, the unit worked to de-politicize itself: its far-right leadership left and founded the National Corps political party,[36] which works with its associated activist organization, Azov Civil Corps."

 

[mayfly13]

From your source:

"In September 2014, the Azov battalion was expanded from a battalion to a regiment and enrolled into the National Guard of Ukraine.[25][35] At this time, the unit worked to de-politicize itself: its far-right leadership left and founded the National Corps political party,[36] which works with its associated activist organization, Azov Civil Corps."

The thing is, Putin's invasion of Ukraine is criminal.

But it's too surreal for me to accept that this all is happening. in this day and age,
I keep vascillating between extremes "Putin the ex-KGB who went full-blown Hitler and wants to reinstate the USSR"
and "wait a minute, maybe Putin genuinely fears that, with NATO having so many bases around Russia, they will gradually chomp and change at Russia's territory over time. Like they did with Yugoslavia,"

 

[oggbashan]

Yugoslavia was NEVER Russian territory. Marshall Tito was his own man, communist yes, but not Russia's Communist. He told Russia to get lost.

The Serbians, only part of what was Yugoslavia, were and are pro-Russian and were in 1914. But again, they do not want to be Russian. They want to be Serbian with Russia as an ally, not a ruler.

 

[Champakian]

The thing is, Putin's invasion of Ukraine is criminal.

But it's too surreal for me to accept that this all is happening. in this day and age,
I keep vascillating between extremes "Putin the ex-KGB who went full-blown Hitler and wants to reinstate the USSR"
and "wait a minute, maybe Putin genuinely fears that, with NATO having so many bases around Russia, they will gradually chomp and change at Russia's territory over time. Like they did with Yugoslavia,"

Only if he loses.

In this day and age...
I just addressed that elsewhere, I'll go find it.

 

[GothTalk]

Yugoslavia was NEVER Russian territory. Marshall Tito was his own man, communist yes, but not Russia's Communist.

But you argued feverishly that because there was no utopia realized, that because only shit holes had resulted, that communism had never been tried.

Clearly if any REAL communist had tried communism the utopia would have obviously been the result.

Right comrade???

 

[oggbashan]

No, ignored member. Tito's communism was adapted to Yugoslavia. It was never (as was the USSR) the communism as set out in the Communist Manifesto.

You are misquoting me - as usual.

 

[mayfly13]

Yugoslavia was NEVER Russian territory. Marshall Tito was his own man, communist yes, but not Russia's Communist. He told Russia to get lost.

The Serbians, only part of what was Yugoslavia, were and are pro-Russian and were in 1914. But again, they do not want to be Russian. They want to be Serbian with Russia as an ally, not a ruler.

I used it as an example as how NATO intervened in a European State, and bombed it as it pleased.

I honestly found parts of Putin's speech to be very reasonable, those with reference to NATO.

Russia is justified to feel it's integrity at risk with NATO's encroachment on it's borders, after what they did in Iraq, Syria and Yugoslavia. The West sees Russia as it's competitor, and wants to weaken it.

Does that mean that NATO is bad for Romania, Bulgaria, Turkey and potentially Ukraine?
Hell no, thy are at risk from Russia.


In saying that, from jumping from legitimate concerns about the West to invading Ukraine... THAT is unjustiffied.

 

[oggbashan]

It was not NATO in Yugoslavia - it was UN peacekeeping forces. Their Rules of Engagement were so limited they could not defend people from massacre.

 

[hobbit.]

More Russian propaganda. Aren't you tired of being Putin's mouthpiece?

Even your own statement indicates that they are mainly Russian Nazis, not Ukrainian.

Id credit him less highly, more like putins ring piece than mouth piece.

 

[mayfly13]

Russia has several primary objectives in their Ukrainian adventure, which are similar to the objectives that drove them to assert control over Crimea.

First, the Russian strategic defense model through the cold war was to establish a set of "buffer states" between the Russian homeland and the West (as organized under NATO). This defense model was a result WWII's experience where the hostile forces (Nazi Germany) was able to penetrate very deeply into Russia before being turned back as tremendous cost in lives. We, as Americans, often fail to understand how this impacted the Russian mind set. (Imagine if, rather than fighting the Empire of Japan on the western side of the Pacific, we had eventually turned them back at the Idaho, Colorado, New Mexico border.) Strategically, Russia does not want Ukraine to be "western allied", either formally, through NATO or informally, through some sort of allegiance short of NATO with the EU.

Second, the Ukraine contains/contained multiple strategic assets that are either valuable to Russia or are perceived as threats to Russia. Current, through a joint agreement with the UK, Ukraine has two brand new naval ports under way - one on the Black Sea and one on the Azor Sea - both of which are "facing" Russia. Russia's strategic command opposes both ports, as well as that agreement with the UK (and by attachment, NATO). Part of this ongoing agreement is funding for the Ukrainian Navy via EU and UK credits (the war mongers money men) that includes funding to build new ships and update existing ships.

Third, the current fracture between eastern and western Ukraine was heightened by the Euromaidan agreement and the internal battle over it. The eastern portion of the Ukraine opposed the agreement with the EU and the western portion supported it. That's why their are significant groups of individuals in one portion of the country that are "pro-Russian". Russia's overall strategic goal is to pull the Ukraine back into closer alliance with Russia and more distant alliances with the west.

Finally, there are powerful economic reasons for Russia to retain a level of control/cooperation with the Ukraine - it's big, it has great natural resources, and it has a well educated and productive population. The political actions are driven by the need/desire to keep those assetts aligned with Russia.

Will they pull the trigger and go to a "hot war"? I doubt it, as the percentages are bad for Russia. Russia is not the Soviet Union, nor can they pull the old Warsaw Pact allies into the war with them. The Russian's are not (contrary to what some media outlets would like to portray) irrational. They are careful calculators in the political sphere. Additionally, Russia has the ability to rapidly project force - had their intention been a hot war, they would have moved the assets to "near border" positions and then plunged across the border is the rapid mobile warfare model that all first world nations have embraced. They would have been at Kyiv by now, knocking on the door. Additionally, the Ukraine is not incapable of defending itself. They have a sizeable military force - similar in size and disposition with France.

Excellent post written a couple of months ago.

Part of Putin's agenda IS to protect his country.
Wtf American and British posters, how would YOU feel if an army parked it's posts around Your country, like NATO did with it's bases around Russia?

But the other part of his motivations Are imperialistic, here came in his despot madness: Ukraine's invasion.


Dictators are never Black and White bad, there always is a small part of legitimacy in their overall wrong-doings.

 

[Wrong Element]

Let's just say there's a reason why countries that were once part of the Warsaw Pact, and in three cases were part of the USSR itself, wanted to get into NATO.

 

[pecksniff]

The thing is, Putin's invasion of Ukraine is criminal.

But it's too surreal for me to accept that this all is happening. in this day and age,
I keep vascillating between extremes "Putin the ex-KGB who went full-blown Hitler and wants to reinstate the USSR"
and "wait a minute, maybe Putin genuinely fears that, with NATO having so many bases around Russia, they will gradually chomp and change at Russia's territory over time. Like they did with Yugoslavia,"

After WWII, no foreign state ever annexed any of Yugoslavia's territory. Nobody even made any demands or claims on it. Albania could make a reasonable claim to Kosovo, but they've never tried to press it, that I've heard.

 

[pecksniff]

But you argued feverishly that because there was no utopia realized, that because only shit holes had resulted, that communism had never been tried.

Clearly if any REAL communist had tried communism the utopia would have obviously been the result.

Right comrade???

Actually, it is a historical fact that the Yugoslavian model of Communism, if not utopian, did work a lot better than the Soviet model. Americans actually bought Yugos -- who ever bought a car of Soviet manufacture?

 

[pecksniff]

Whatever the nature of this particular unit, we must agree it is rather silly of Putin to speak of "de-Nazifying" Ukraine. A country with a Jewish president does not need very much in the way of de-Nazification.

 

[oggbashan]

Excellent post written a couple of months ago.

Part of Putin's agenda IS to protect his country.
Wtf American and British posters, how would YOU feel if an army parked it's posts around Your country, like NATO did with it's bases around Russia?

But the other part of his motivations Are imperialistic, here came in his despot madness: Ukraine's invasion.


Dictators are never Black and White bad, there always is a small part of legitimacy in their overall wrong-doings.

We had that in 1940. Hilter's forces were poised across the Channel to invade. They had occupied Europe from the North of Norway to the Spanish border and were bombing all over the UK. Only the defeat of the Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain postponed the invasion. But that didn't stop the Blitz of London. Except for Hawaii in 1941, no US territory faced what we did in the UK.

 

[mayfly13]

We had that in 1940. Hilter's forces were poised across the Channel to invade. They had occupied Europe from the North of Norway to the Spanish border and were bombing all over the UK. Only the defeat of the Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain postponed the invasion. But that didn't stop the Blitz of London. Except for Hawaii in 1941, no US territory faced what we did in the UK.

It's horrible. but also so complicated.

On one hand I'm angry with the Western axis for their contribution to this.

I'm sure CIA and other Western Intel tried to magnify the anarchy in all these EE tribalistic clashes, I'm sure they deliberately made the splits even worse. Like they did in Middle East and Yugoslavia, only to intervene later on as 'saviors' and impose their inverted colonialism.

Then NATO.
Why tf did they nudge and provoke a Putin by establishing NATO bases in Romania, Bulgaria, Turkey? And potentially Ukraine?


But then you wonder what which is the chicken, which the egg.
Maybe precisely the NATO bases deterred Putin from reconstituting the USSR

American,British and German Elites are hated worldwide for their covert imperialism, but they are so much better than Russian boots.

 

[mayfly13]

Your comparison with Hitler is also actually apt, ogg.

I understand that when Hitler started campaigning, the grievances of Germans WERE legitimate:
The sanctions imposed by neighboring countries after ww1 were brutal and unfair, they led laypeople into abject poverty. Plus Jewish bankers Did own a lot of assets and were mooching off people with speculative practices.

But look what it all morphed into.
Russians need to revolt & take down Putin and elect someone sane to fight the West's cold war on Russia,

 

[GothTalk]

Actually, it is a historical fact that the Yugoslavian model of Communism, if not utopian, did work a lot better than the Soviet model.

Failed shit hole...just like every other "progressive" lefty shit hole.

Americans actually bought Yugos -- who ever bought a car of Soviet manufacture?

Funny you say that, I have a 75' Lada.

 

[pecksniff]

Russians need to revolt & take down Putin and elect someone sane to fight the West's cold war on Russia,

Without Putin, would there even be any cold war on Russia? Russia then could join both NATO and the EU, and make a permanent commitment to being a European country instead of something other and eastern and (to use a 19th-Century phrase) Slavophile.

 

[Wrong Element]

It's horrible. but also so complicated.

On one hand I'm angry with the Western axis for their contribution to this.

I'm sure CIA and other Western Intel tried to magnify the anarchy in all these EE tribalistic clashes, I'm sure they deliberately made the splits even worse. Like they did in Middle East and Yugoslavia, only to intervene later on as 'saviors' and impose their inverted colonialism.

Then NATO.
Why tf did they nudge and provoke a Putin by establishing NATO bases in Romania, Bulgaria, Turkey? And potentially Ukraine?


But then you wonder what which is the chicken, which the egg.
Maybe precisely the NATO bases deterred Putin from reconstituting the USSR

American,British and German Elites are hated worldwide for their covert imperialism, but they are so much better than Russian boots.

The US has had bases in Turkey since the Cold War, so that's not any sort of new provocation.

But this isn't just about NATO — an organization that now thanks to Putin is healthier than it's been in a long time. It's also about Ukraine's clear interest in joining the European Union, which doesn't impact Russian national security in any conceivable way. Putin is if anything less interested in having a healthy democracy that's an EU member on his doorstep than he would be to have an autocracy (like Turkey) that's in NATO.

 

[pecksniff]

Failed shit hole...just like every other "progressive" lefty shit hole.

Yugoslavia failed politically, not economically. What killed it was nationalism.

 

[butters]

yeah, poor li'l russia, so 'threatened', so desirous of a bufferzone...

Belarusians voted Monday to allow the country to host nuclear weapons and Russian forces permanently, results showed, part of a package of constitutional reforms that also extended the rule of leader Alexander Lukashenko.

The referendum was held Sunday as the ex-Soviet country's neighbour Ukraine is under attack from Russian troops and delegations from Moscow and Kyiv are expected to meet for talks on the Belarusian border.

The constitutional changes also grant immunity to former leaders for crimes committed during their term in office.

*

Lukashenko first floated possible changes after a presidential vote in August 2020 sparked unprecedented demonstrations that were met with a brutal crackdown.

He claimed a sixth term in the vote and imprisoned leading opposition figures, while his main rival Svetlana Tikhanovskaya was forced to seek refuge in neighbouring Lithuania.

key russian ally, lukashenko... so what was that about nuclear weapons on russian borders? don't hear putin demanding that belarus shouldn't harbour permanent nukes/russian forces RIGHT on Ukraine's doorstep. the exact opposite.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/worl...clear-status/ar-AAUnY8f?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531