is it time to drop prefixes and simply use 'American'?

[butters]

i'm not Black, or African American, or a Person of Colour other than a sort of wilted pink-beige, so i'm not saying what other people should be called.

my thought is that, if we're looking for a more unified USA, shouldn't her citizens be referred to as American, first and foremost, with any other labels a side menu people choose from? For example:

''While visiting France, an American witnessed a rare sight from the top of the Eiffel Tower. Dan Jones, a Black man from New York.....'' (swap in ethnicities as desired or not at all)

I get how the accepted uses of Black, Person of Colour, and Black have changed over the course of time, their relevance and why they became more (and less) popular terms. I also understand a person can choose their own preferred 'label' and it's not my place to suggest anyone of colour should be labeled with something they don't like or even labeled at all.

My point is about unifying the fractured USA, and by something better (and far less costly to life and limb) than war.

 

[Sean Renaud]

Do you go by your last name except in the presence of family members?

 

[pecksniff]

I recall reading in William Manchester's The Glory and the Dream that around the time of the Bonus March Army of 1932, there were a lot of WASP Army officers who wanted to "shoot our hyphenates."

 

[Bud_Spencer]

“There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism. When I refer to hyphenated Americans, I do not refer to naturalized Americans. Some of the very best Americans I have ever known were naturalized Americans, Americans born abroad. But a hyphenated American is not an American at all.”“This is just as true of the man who puts “native” before the hyphen as of the man who puts German or Irish or English or French before the hyphen. Americanism is a matter of the spirit and of the soul. Our allegiance must be purely to the United States. We must unsparingly condemn any man who holds any other allegiance.”“But if he is heartily and singly loyal to this Republic, then no matter where he was born, he is just as good an American as any one else.”“The one absolutely certain way of bringing this nation to ruin, of preventing all possibility of its continuing to be a nation at all, would be to permit it to become a tangle of squabbling nationalities, an intricate knot of German-Americans, Irish-Americans, English- Americans, French-Americans, Scandinavian- Americans, or Italian-Americans, each preserving its separate nationality, each at heart feeling more sympathy with Europeans of that nationality than with the other citizens of the American Republic.”“The men who do not become Americans and nothing else are hyphenated Americans; and there ought to be no room for them in this country. The man who calls himself an American citizen and who yet shows by his actions that he is primarily the citizen of a foreign land, plays a thoroughly mischievous part in the life of our body politic. He has no place here; and the sooner he returns to the land to which he feels his real heart-allegiance, the better it will be for every good American.”

Teddy Roosevelt

 

[WillJ8787]

i'm not Black, or African American, or a Person of Colour other than a sort of wilted pink-beige, so i'm not saying what other people should be called.

my thought is that, if we're looking for a more unified USA, shouldn't her citizens be referred to as American, first and foremost, with any other labels a side menu people choose from? For example:

''While visiting France, an American witnessed a rare sight from the top of the Eiffel Tower. Dan Jones, a Black man from New York.....'' (swap in ethnicities as desired or not at all)

I get how the accepted uses of Black, Person of Colour, and Black have changed over the course of time, their relevance and why they became more (and less) popular terms. I also understand a person can choose their own preferred 'label' and it's not my place to suggest anyone of colour should be labeled with something they don't like or even labeled at all.

My point is about unifying the fractured USA, and by something better (and far less costly to life and limb) than war.

I think you make a good point....if the person opposite me doesn't see me as American first due to a whole series of issues they have....they might get a hyphenated "bird" as my response.

 

[oggbashan]

There are large communities of 'German-Americans who are proud of their heritage and what had been their ancestors' country. That is also true of many other groups that were immigrants or are descended from immigrants.

That doesn't make them any less American but they prefer to remember where they came from.

German-Americans might only be 'German plus a hyphen' for Octoberfest when they drink lots of beer - an American habit too.

 

[KeithD]

This being called an American issue, hyphenated or otherwise, has long been a conundrum for me. Having lived extensively in international communities, I'm sensitive to Canadians and Central and South Americans voicing indignance that those in the United States usurp the adjective "Americans" for themselves. Every time I start to refer to a citizen of the United States as an Americans, I do a doubletake in considering the use of the term.

 

[oggbashan]

In the Patagonia region of Argentina. there are Welsh-speaking communities. They don't see themselves as Welsh-Americans or Welsh-Argentinians. They are just Argentinians who happen to speak Welsh.

PS. I am a Welshman who happens to live in England. I don't see myself as Welsh-English. I am Welsh even if I can't speak it (in common with a large proportion of Welsh people).

 

[butters]

Do you go by your last name except in the presence of family members?

as to that, times have changed but it was actually a norm in the UK once; my parents' neighbours all addressed eachother as Mr or Mrs Last Name and only called eachother by their first names in smaller, private settings. Long time ago, thank goodness. In case you didn't know, I'm a permanent American resident from the UK and back there it's not the norm to say African-Brit or variations thereof... kind of you're a Brit and that's it, the other nomenclature more an afterthought. Black is used most often as a prefix when one is used at all. In some awful tabloids, "black" is also used in a derogatory manner and ALWAYS used if running a story about crime whereas they'll never specify "white" or caucasian man/woman, just use their names. London is so diverse in its population and skin shades, Brit seems the standard use, other names more a broadening of description rather than primary identity. Don't get me wrong, there are enclaves (especially in uber-white norfolk, for example) where people will mention (almost in a stage-aside way) "he's a 'black man' you know". Always pisses me off and it's the same kind of vibe i get hearing some people down on the gulf coast.

Would it be right then to say it's an integral part of your personal identity you take pride in or ownership of? Is your preference African American? or Black American? Or? (excuse any clunky phrasing on my part; my intention is to gain a deeper understanding of the various points of view)

Could you explain to me (and anyone else reading so we get a better understanding of viewpoints) why you prefer this? Is it a preference shared by any of of your Black friends/relatives, or more a generational thing that varies depending on influences from voices–and movements–of the day?

 

[Bud_Spencer]

In the Patagonia region of Argentina. there are Welsh-speaking communities. They don't see themselves as Welsh-Americans or Welsh-Argentinians. They are just Argentinians who happen to speak Welsh.

PS. I am a Welshman who happens to live in England. I don't see myself as Welsh-English. I am Welsh even if I can't speak it (in common with a large proportion of Welsh people).

There's a King's English community outside of Buenos Aires, too, in Hurlingham.

 

[pecksniff]

Lawrence Welk spoke English like some kinda furriner. In fact, he grew up in Strasburg, North Dakota -- a town where everybody spoke German. He did not learn English until he was 21.

 

[butters]

I think you make a good point....if the person opposite me doesn't see me as American first due to a whole series of issues they have....they might get a hyphenated "bird" as my response.

about that bird...

There are large communities of 'German-Americans who are proud of their heritage and what had been their ancestors' country. That is also true of many other groups that were immigrants or are descended from immigrants.

That doesn't make them any less American but they prefer to remember where they came from.

German-Americans might only be 'German plus a hyphen' for Octoberfest when they drink lots of beer - an American habit too.

i wonder how they are described abroad (not in Germany)... do you suppose most other countries refer to them simply as 'Americans'? There's a big Germanic influence in parts of Tennessee, and they're not shy from announcing their heritage but they still seem to put "American" first and foremost.

This being called an American issue, hyphenated or otherwise, has long been a conundrum for me. Having lived extensively in international communities, I'm sensitive to Canadians and Central and South Americans voicing indignance that those in the United States usurp the adjective "Americans" for themselves. Every time I start to refer to a citizen of the United States as an Americans, I do a doubletake in considering the use of the term.

Oh yes, of course! I always used to call the USA North America,the USA, or Yankeeland, but since coming here the terminology seems to be all about "America" and i never hear it called North America.

In the Patagonia region of Argentina. there are Welsh-speaking communities. They don't see themselves as Welsh-Americans or Welsh-Argentinians. They are just Argentinians who happen to speak Welsh.

PS. I am a Welshman who happens to live in England. I don't see myself as Welsh-English. I am Welsh even if I can't speak it (in common with a large proportion of Welsh people).

When in the UK, i identified as English as opposed to Brit, but abroad or speaking with those abroad i tend to use 'brit' when asked or 'from London, England/UK'. The English bit is usually in response to people asking if i'm Australian. or Irish Until i do my citizenship, i'm mostly just a Brit abroad; my involvement with the political vagaries of the USA means i have come to feel increasingly closer to what matters for the country and once i am a citizen then i'll be American...from Britain.

 

[LincolnDuncan]

I think that when a subculture migrates it's perfectly reasonable for them to practice cultural traditions as long as it doesn't interfere with assimilation. In the case of the descendants of slavery, they didn't follow the same path to "America" so the choice of what they consider themselves is theirs. Hopefully, at some point, they will drop the prefix.

 

[ishtat]

Yet despite Teddy Roosveldts fine words, hyphenated Americans are discriminated against, they never have equal rights. Only a native born citizen of the USA may be President.

That provision in the US Constitution was introduced to stop Hamilton's Presidential ambitions (One of Jefferson's lesser moments). And it stuck, thus labeling all naturalized US citizens as lesser beings.

It is instructive that the current UK PM, Boris Johnson would qualify, but the far more distinguished Madelaine Albright would not. Almost monarchical in principle.

 

[butters]

I think that when a subculture migrates it's perfectly reasonable for them to practice cultural traditions as long as it doesn't interfere with assimilation. In the case of the descendants of slavery, they didn't follow the same path to "America" so the choice of what they consider themselves is theirs. Hopefully, at some point, they will drop the prefix.

no argument there.

maybe, with time, prefixes will drop or become irrelevant to subsequent generations, especially those who are the children of a whole mixed bag of ethnicities, just as the label-names themselves have changed over time. maybe they won't, and this thread is about understanding what drives the choices.
my perspective, as a brit living (probably the rest of my life) in the USA, is probably irrelevant to Black Americans, but i wonder if it will be shaped by their input.

 

[pecksniff]

I recall reading in William Manchester's The Glory and the Dream that around the time of the Bonus March Army of 1932, there were a lot of WASP Army officers who wanted to "shoot our hyphenates."

And they also wanted to deport "those of inferior blood" to an island somewhere.

 

[pecksniff]

That provision in the US Constitution was introduced to stop Hamilton's Presidential ambitions (One of Jefferson's lesser moments).

Jefferson was in France at the time of the Constitutional Convention.

 

[Sean Renaud]

I snipped the first part because while you brought up a bunch of relevant information that part I can sum up pretty easily. Firstly Teddy simply lived in a different era. He wasn't talking about African/Latino/Asian Americans identifying themselves primarily. He was talking about white on white crime FFS. The rest falls under that so much of American past and present is defined by race that its very, very difficult to separate them from one another.

I won't pretend we handle it perfectly, or even overly well half the time BUT when a group of people are being singled out one way or another ignoring it doesn't help. We have witnessed at present an increase in attacks on Jews here in the US. How do you focus your efforts where they will do the most good if you just claim there is an increase in crime? You don't. I could of course us any minority I intentionally used one that wasn't my own.

~snip~​

Would it be right then to say it's an integral part of your personal identity you take pride in or ownership of? Is your preference African American? or Black American? Or? (excuse any clunky phrasing on my part; my intention is to gain a deeper understanding of the various points of view)

Could you explain to me (and anyone else reading so we get a better understanding of viewpoints) why you prefer this? Is it a preference shared by any of of your Black friends/relatives, or more a generational thing that varies depending on influences from voices–and movements–of the day?

I don't know if pride is the proper word, I don't give a shit if someone calls me black or African American to me they are interchangable save in very, very rare occasions. Like when RightGuide tries to point out (not entirely innaccurately) that Kamala is Jamacan American, Obama is Kenyan American. They both have ties to specifical nationalities outside America. Though Kamala is still slave stock.

I think the best answer to your question is a true story of when I went to Iraq. I had a post that was primarily the Brits (You guys actually say 'bloody' They were so huffy they came all the way to the desert and it was bloody raining!) but there were some Koreans and assorted others. If I was alone, or with other Marines I didn't care if they called me "The American(s)" or not. I let the kiddies correct them that we are not soldiers we are Marines. If I was alone it was enough that I was distinct from any other nation.

You better believe that when I was there with a soldier, sailor or airmen I made the distinction. I need to know when you are talking to me. Besides culturally the 4 (I never met a National Guard at least not in uniform) branches are culturally different for a lack of better terms. Not that I was a stellar Marine on that front. I hate formality and being a complete dick). Still then it was important. From there on to rank and even name but it never got THAT crowded.

As much as people try their best to pretend that almost everything is interwoven through several lenses it is tied together. There is currently a thread up about racist traffic camera. If you read the article no small part of what makes them 'racist" is that PoCs are more likely to be living paycheck to paycheck, a ticket they can't pay leads a car they can't get out impound, which leads to them being unemployed.

Cameras are not racist (unless concentrated in certain areas, the article is mum on that) nor are speeding tickets. They were disproportionately affecting certain groups of people.

PS: There also foods primarily but other things that are tied in with race in this country. A lot of the foods African and Latino Americans eat are the results of poverty and hard times. I have to hope nobody woke up thinking 'Man the heart, lungs and liver should be boiled in a stomach while we send the heads over to some guys with weird sharks.

 

[Rightguide]

“There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism. When I refer to hyphenated Americans, I do not refer to naturalized Americans. Some of the very best Americans I have ever known were naturalized Americans, Americans born abroad. But a hyphenated American is not an American at all.”“This is just as true of the man who puts “native” before the hyphen as of the man who puts German or Irish or English or French before the hyphen. Americanism is a matter of the spirit and of the soul. Our allegiance must be purely to the United States. We must unsparingly condemn any man who holds any other allegiance.”“But if he is heartily and singly loyal to this Republic, then no matter where he was born, he is just as good an American as any one else.”“The one absolutely certain way of bringing this nation to ruin, of preventing all possibility of its continuing to be a nation at all, would be to permit it to become a tangle of squabbling nationalities, an intricate knot of German-Americans, Irish-Americans, English- Americans, French-Americans, Scandinavian- Americans, or Italian-Americans, each preserving its separate nationality, each at heart feeling more sympathy with Europeans of that nationality than with the other citizens of the American Republic.”“The men who do not become Americans and nothing else are hyphenated Americans; and there ought to be no room for them in this country. The man who calls himself an American citizen and who yet shows by his actions that he is primarily the citizen of a foreign land, plays a thoroughly mischievous part in the life of our body politic. He has no place here; and the sooner he returns to the land to which he feels his real heart-allegiance, the better it will be for every good American.”

Teddy Roosevelt

My favorite TR quote:

“In the first place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the person’s becoming in every facet an American, and nothing but an American … There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn’t an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag … We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language … and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people.”

Theodore Roosevelt 1907

 

[pecksniff]

IPS: There also foods primarily but other things that are tied in with race in this country. A lot of the foods African and Latino Americans eat are the results of poverty and hard times. I have to hope nobody woke up thinking 'Man the heart, lungs and liver should be boiled in a stomach while we send the heads over to some guys with weird sharks.

Are you talking about haggis?

 

[Misshotndeep]

I’m pretty sure only Americans use the pretext. Outside of America were are just Americans. That’s been my experience anyway.

 

[pecksniff]

I’m pretty sure only Americans use the pretext.

You mean "prefix."

 

[oggbashan]

Winston Churchill had an American mother, and later he was given honorary American citizenship. But his descent from the Spencers made him part of the UK's nobility (and was a relation of Princess Diana).

PS. My American and Canadian relations describe themselves as either Americans or Canadians with no prefix. I can barely understand them when they speak but they have been in the Americas since the early 19th Century.

I can understand my Australian relations easier. I have lived in Australia. Most went to Australia between 1900 and 1905, the last in the 1970s. But they are all now dinkum Aussies.

 

[butters]

I’m pretty sure only Americans use the pretext. Outside of America were are just Americans. That’s been my experience anyway.

Yeah, my experience can only be about from the UK except for the past almost 5 years now here, but over there it was just 'American' (usually accompanied with a rolling of eyes at the attitudes. sorry )

what about yourself? how important is it for you, personally, and do you see it likely to change with time or even if it should/shouldn't change?

I snipped the first part because while you brought up a bunch of relevant information that part I can sum up pretty easily. Firstly Teddy simply lived in a different era. He wasn't talking about African/Latino/Asian Americans identifying themselves primarily. He was talking about white on white crime FFS. The rest falls under that so much of American past and present is defined by race that its very, very difficult to separate them from one another.

I won't pretend we handle it perfectly, or even overly well half the time BUT when a group of people are being singled out one way or another ignoring it doesn't help. We have witnessed at present an increase in attacks on Jews here in the US. How do you focus your efforts where they will do the most good if you just claim there is an increase in crime? You don't. I could of course us any minority I intentionally used one that wasn't my own.





I don't know if pride is the proper word, I don't give a shit if someone calls me black or African American to me they are interchangable save in very, very rare occasions. Like when RightGuide tries to point out (not entirely innaccurately) that Kamala is Jamacan American, Obama is Kenyan American. They both have ties to specifical nationalities outside America. Though Kamala is still slave stock.

I think the best answer to your question is a true story of when I went to Iraq. I had a post that was primarily the Brits (You guys actually say 'bloody' They were so huffy they came all the way to the desert and it was bloody raining!) but there were some Koreans and assorted others. If I was alone, or with other Marines I didn't care if they called me "The American(s)" or not. I let the kiddies correct them that we are not soldiers we are Marines. If I was alone it was enough that I was distinct from any other nation.

You better believe that when I was there with a soldier, sailor or airmen I made the distinction. I need to know when you are talking to me. Besides culturally the 4 (I never met a National Guard at least not in uniform) branches are culturally different for a lack of better terms. Not that I was a stellar Marine on that front. I hate formality and being a complete dick). Still then it was important. From there on to rank and even name but it never got THAT crowded.

As much as people try their best to pretend that almost everything is interwoven through several lenses it is tied together. There is currently a thread up about racist traffic camera. If you read the article no small part of what makes them 'racist" is that PoCs are more likely to be living paycheck to paycheck, a ticket they can't pay leads a car they can't get out impound, which leads to them being unemployed.

Cameras are not racist (unless concentrated in certain areas, the article is mum on that) nor are speeding tickets. They were disproportionately affecting certain groups of people.

PS: There also foods primarily but other things that are tied in with race in this country. A lot of the foods African and Latino Americans eat are the results of poverty and hard times. I have to hope nobody woke up thinking 'Man the heart, lungs and liver should be boiled in a stomach while we send the heads over to some guys with weird sharks.

thankyou, thankyou for the indepth reply, SR. I agree on the problems with assessing the very real, very difficult issues if we don't have some way to identify or measure them.

okay, maybe not 'pride'. it just is. i'm a brit with a pale skin but have no pride nor shame in that. just is.

yes, 'bloody 'ell' would be fairly common usage, as is 'fer fuckssake' rain in the bloody desert? ffs!

yeah, how much a difference matters depends on circumstances at the time. *nods*

not racist cameras, but practices that affect p.o.c with inequity, of course

and then you have lobster and oysters: poor-people food in britland centuries ago and shunned by those who could afford 'better', now elevated to 'cuisine' and accompanied by an unhealthy price tag putting them way out of the reach of the truly poor.

fuckin' life, fuckin' people

 

[Misshotndeep]

Yeah, my experience can only be about from the UK except for the past almost 5 years now here, but over there it was just 'American' (usually accompanied with a rolling of eyes at the attitudes. sorry )

what about yourself? how important is it for you, personally, and do you see it likely to change with time or even if it should/shouldn't change?

The issue here is that by removing those pretext it would be easy to get away with discrimination. Which, is a very real problem over here. Personally, I view myself like an onion. I’m a woman. Then I have African roots, Asian roots, European roots too. Then I’m American. Layers and layers. To be honest the make-up of every society are the labels that we are defined by. From a psychologically stand point. You take even a layer away and folks can loose sense of self and community. Again, personally I don’t care about all that noise but I am considered anti social so there is that.