Narrator voice and First Person

[Brutal_One]

What are writers views of using narrator voice but having the narrator telling the story from first person perspective.

The benefits are the hidden thoughts and feelings of that person, the narrator are easier to do.

The pitfalls I assume are the same for writing first person but is there any particular advantage / disadvantage of using both?

Brutal One

 

[SimonDoom]

Could you be more specific about what you mean? I'm not sure I understand.

In first-person POV, the narrator and character are one and the same. There's no difference. The narrator has no ability to see or relate anything beyond what a character in that specific situation would be able to see or relate.

One of the advantages of first-person POV is the ability plausibly to create surprise. A first-person POV character doesn't know what's around the corner. But a third-person narrator, presumably, DOES know what's around the corner, and knows what other characters are thinking and doing, so surprise is a bit harder to manufacture.

I personally think some authors exaggerate the benefits of first-person POV. If you write in third-person limited POV in a free indirect style, where you weave a narrative of the character's thoughts and perceptions throughout the person's actions and dialogue, you can achieve pretty much the same effect as first-person POV, but you also have the advantage of being able to step back and narrate things the character wouldn't be able to narrate. I use first-person POV some of the time, but third-person POV is my default because of its greater flexibility.

 

[MelissaBaby]

What are writers views of using narrator voice but having the narrator telling the story from first person perspective.

The benefits are the hidden thoughts and feelings of that person, the narrator are easier to do.

The pitfalls I assume are the same for writing first person but is there any particular advantage / disadvantage of using both?

Brutal One

I don't think there is any particular pitfall to it, as long as you retain consistency between the voice the narrator uses in exposition as in dialogue, unless you have some reason for the narrator to use a false voice when speaking to others.

 

[MelissaBaby]

Could you be more specific about what you mean? I'm not sure I understand.

In first-person POV, the narrator and character are one and the same. There's no difference. The narrator has no ability to see or relate anything beyond what a character in that specific situation would be able to see or relate.

One of the advantages of first-person POV is the ability plausibly to create surprise. A first-person POV character doesn't know what's around the corner. But a third-person narrator, presumably, DOES know what's around the corner, and knows what other characters are thinking and doing, so surprise is a bit harder to manufacture.

I personally think some authors exaggerate the benefits of first-person POV. If you write in third-person limited POV in a free indirect style, where you weave a narrative of the character's thoughts and perceptions throughout the person's actions and dialogue, you can achieve pretty much the same effect as first-person POV, but you also have the advantage of being able to step back and narrate things the character wouldn't be able to narrate. I use first-person POV some of the time, but third-person POV is my default because of its greater flexibility.

Yeah, it's not any harder to write "She thought the sandwich looked delicious." than to write "I thought the sandwich looked delicious."

 

[GinnyPPC]

multiple first person

I like to write with multiple first-person sections. I feel like I can tease out the story better when I spend some time in one person's head, then after a few thousand words, change to the other character. You can do a lot with that in terms of building anticipation, character development, and showing intercharacter tension.

Not sure you can do this in a short story, but it works in a 50k+ word novel.

 

[AlinaX]

I've certainly written stories (not sure if any on Lit) where the writing is 3rd person with occasional interruptions from the narrator in first person.

 

[NotWise]

It's already been mentioned but in first person, the main character tells the story.

That's not necessarily true. The POV character can be mostly an observer rather than the main character. In the story I'm working on now, the POV character is a man who observes the female main character. The POV character usually acts as a foil to let the woman express herself.

Like Simon, I have trouble understanding the question in the OP. It sounds like he might be talking about the case where the 1st person narrator is mostly an observer and narrates the actions of others.

 

[Lifestyle66]

What are writers views of using narrator voice but having the narrator telling the story from first person perspective.

The benefits are the hidden thoughts and feelings of that person, the narrator are easier to do.

The pitfalls I assume are the same for writing first person but is there any particular advantage / disadvantage of using both?

Brutal One

You'll hear opinions here from people who are experienced writers and English/writing majors. And most will probable advise against 1st person POV.

As a new writer, and not being an English major, I write my stories in 1st person, because that's what I can see and hear, and I can keep the story consistent.

I find it more difficult to "step outside of myself" and write a consistent story as 3rd person. I'm trying that now with my next chapter, by telling a story related to me by another couple. But it is difficult for me to write "he felt this" or "she felt that."

The main pitfall writing 1st person is there will be a time when you want to tell something which you didn't see. I try solving that by saying "My wife later told me what happened...", then I switch to a 3rd person POV for just that portion. If you do switch POV, be sure to make that a very clear delineation in your story. I now separate scenes with a short line of asterisks **** so the reader sees the change. I've read too many stories where the scene changes quickly, and with no visual indicator in the writing (extra lines, Chapter numbers, etc) the story is hard to follow.

 

[NotWise]

I find it more difficult to "step outside of myself" and write a consistent story as 3rd person. I'm trying that now with my next chapter, by telling a story related to me by another couple. But it is difficult for me to write "he felt this" or "she felt that."

The main pitfall writing 1st person is there will be a time when you want to tell something which you didn't see. I try solving that by saying "My wife later told me what happened...", then I switch to a 3rd person POV for just that portion.

If you find those solutions difficult, then don't use them. Dialog is the Swiss Army knife for problem solving.

If it's difficult to write "he felt this," then have a conversation in which "he" says, "I felt that ... "

In the second case, don't switch to third person to tell the wife's story. Have the wife tell her own story in dialog. That has the additional advantage that you can place the husband's reaction into the conversation. This can be done in either 1st or 3rd.

 

[PennameWombat]

You'll hear opinions here from people who are experienced writers and English/writing majors. And most will probable advise against 1st person POV.

As a new writer, and not being an English major, I write my stories in 1st person, because that's what I can see and hear, and I can keep the story consistent.
<snip>.

I'm about as far away from an English major as it's possible to get (while still being a native English speaker, well, American English, a degraded form of the language according to most Australians ). And I prefer to avoid 1st person POV. And when it comes to fiction, I'm relatively new.

But I prefer to write 3rd person. I do use 1st (6 of 38 stories here), when I really want the story to be THAT person's story. For me, that's rare. None of my stories are more than tangentially about 'me' so maybe it's easier. (I do mine bits and pieces, and, of course, some of my locations are places I know well, but none of them are about my life events.)

What are writers views of using narrator voice but having the narrator telling the story from first person perspective.

The benefits are the hidden thoughts and feelings of that person, the narrator are easier to do.

The pitfalls I assume are the same for writing first person but is there any particular advantage / disadvantage of using both?

Brutal One

As to this, the OP, I don't understand either. 1st person the narrator is the person telling the story, whether they're the protagonist, antagonist, or a third-party participant along for the ride (but, they have to be along, or, possibly, they could be listening to a story and 'writing' it down, but then, the person telling them is the POV). First person always implies we can get the narrator's thoughts, in fact, we get only the narrator's thoughts and what they see. Now, there are such narrators who might be closed-off, and not give us much of their inner life. Fair enough. Others might be unreliable, another technique that allows interesting things to be done, possibly with the result of angering readers deeply.

So I don't really know what's being asked here. Unless you're trying something like switching from 3rd- to 1st-person regularly.

 

[Brutal_One]

That's not necessarily true. The POV character can be mostly an observer rather than the main character. In the story I'm working on now, the POV character is a man who observes the female main character. The POV character usually acts as a foil to let the woman express herself.

Like Simon, I have trouble understanding the question in the OP. It sounds like he might be talking about the case where the 1st person narrator is mostly an observer and narrates the actions of others.

Yes it’s both. The narrator has to describe events but can be a first person character but as well as descriptions thinking which are thoughts of the narrator. I am acting as an editor for what appears to be a very imaginative writer. Her writing has both narrative voice but the narrator is one of the characters. This story is actually written in 3rd character but as we know the first person voice is more impactful in engaging the reader and putting the emotion into it rather than the more passive 3rd voice. Most of my own work is also 3rd voice but in my last concluding part to the series which was by far the longest up to 8 lit pages I used first person and narrative voice.

I agree as long as it’s consistent I don’t see any disadvantages but the OP was to get the view from AH.

The comments are helpful so thanks. On the right track is the point.

Brutal One

 

[Kumquatqueen]

This might be a good place to ask a question.
I'm working on a story where a woman is narrating in first person, because a lot of the story is about her thoughts, but in particular the main male character is a bit unusual and his thought processes are not obvious to her nor anyone else.

But then for plot reasons he needs to have a couple conversations with another guy, that she isn't privy to. So I have a couple scenes starting 'What I didn't know, then, was that B had found A after dinner. Their conversation had gone like this: (A and B have dialogue). B returned, refusing to explain his small smile.'

I'd be fairly happy using that trick once, but twice might start looking like bad head-hopping, and three times, as other characters do stuff A and B don't know about, might be overkill. Maybe long sections with different narrators work better than short ones? The whole story is at least 50k words.

 

[rescatooor]

This might be a good place to ask a question.
I'm working on a story where a woman is narrating in first person, because a lot of the story is about her thoughts, but in particular the main male character is a bit unusual and his thought processes are not obvious to her nor anyone else.

But then for plot reasons he needs to have a couple conversations with another guy, that she isn't privy to. So I have a couple scenes starting 'What I didn't know, then, was that B had found A after dinner. Their conversation had gone like this: (A and B have dialogue). B returned, refusing to explain his small smile.'

I'd be fairly happy using that trick once, but twice might start looking like bad head-hopping, and three times, as other characters do stuff A and B don't know about, might be overkill. Maybe long sections with different narrators work better than short ones? The whole story is at least 50k words.

I have a couple of books that I've read where you have 3rd person narration that is tied to the perspective of one character except for... one scene. It is a little odd, I'm not going to lie. The only reason it works in that context at all is because there is a huge plot twist. It's similar to the ending of Kill Bill Pt. 1: suddenly we find out something that the main character has no way of knowing.

Headhopping per se is not bad, but there should be rules regarding it. For example:

A) Mrs. Dalloway: headhopping is only possible when two characters are in close contact with another. I always like to imagine the narrator in these cases as something like a virus.

B) Do it in chapters, or otherwise clearly mark the perspective switch. Hold the perspective for a fair amount of time.

C) Limit the headhopping to only a couple of characters.

 

[Lifestyle66]

This might be a good place to ask a question.
I'm working on a story where a woman is narrating in first person, because a lot of the story is about her thoughts, but in particular the main male character is a bit unusual and his thought processes are not obvious to her nor anyone else.

But then for plot reasons he needs to have a couple conversations with another guy, that she isn't privy to. So I have a couple scenes starting 'What I didn't know, then, was that B had found A after dinner. Their conversation had gone like this: (A and B have dialogue). B returned, refusing to explain his small smile.'

I'd be fairly happy using that trick once, but twice might start looking like bad head-hopping, and three times, as other characters do stuff A and B don't know about, might be overkill. Maybe long sections with different narrators work better than short ones? The whole story is at least 50k words.

I'm trying this with the next two chapters in my plot line. I write in 1st person. But, in my next chapter, I'm introducing him to another couple who have a unique experience in a club that evening (changing to 3rd person). I'm using that scene to build the other husband and wife's characters.

And due to some people on the forum saying 6-7 Lit pages is the optimum story length, I'll add the subsequent chapter (re-write of my last old chapter from when I started), where I shift from 1st person saying "My wife later told me about her conversation in the kitchen...", then switch to that dialog. The total length of these two chapters will be about 17-18K.

 

[Lifestyle66]

...B) Do it in chapters, or otherwise clearly mark the perspective switch. Hold the perspective for a fair amount of time.

That's good advice in any story.

I've read stories where it's difficult to follow the scene changes from one short paragraph to the next.

I now tend to use a short line of asterisks ***** to indicate a scene change. When editing, it also helps me see if a scene is too short.

 

[Zeb_Carter]

The first story I wrote for Lit was all in first person, but switched between characters. Each switch was clearly marked and was a scene in the story. Chapters were made of x amount of scenes. In the beginning it was between the two main characters but as the story unfolded more and more of the main characters started to appear as the story teller from their perspective.

My next one was in third person omniscience where the narrator knew everything that had happened and even what would happen in the future.

I have done a number of stories in third person limited presence also.

Why did I try all of them? To see if I could.

I did receive a number of comments about switching POV but they were in the minority.

 

[Zeb_Carter]

That's good advice in any story.

I've read stories where it's difficult to follow the scene changes from one short paragraph to the next.

I now tend to use a short line of asterisks ***** to indicate a scene change. When editing, it also helps me see if a scene is too short.

And if the POV changes...

Stacy ****

John ****

Harry ****

 

[rescatooor]

And if the POV changes...

Stacy ****

John ****

Harry ****

I don't think you necessarily need to mark the narrator like that. But if you do have a lot of characters it might be a good idea, particularly if they have fairly similar characteristics with nothing specifically making them immediately identifiable.

One books that does something like this is Toni Morrison's A Mercy. Every second chapter you follow the "main character" while you get to spend just one chapter with each other character. Since it's a fairly closed community and some overlap in narratives, it makes it relatively easy to identify who is the focalizer this time.

 

[Zeb_Carter]

I don't think you necessarily need to mark the narrator like that. But if you do have a lot of characters it might be a good idea, particularly if they have fairly similar characteristics with nothing specifically making them immediately identifiable.

One books that does something like this is Toni Morrison's A Mercy. Every second character you follow the "main character" while you get to spend just one chapter with each other character. Since it's a fairly closed community and some overlap in narratives, it makes it relatively easy to identify who is the focalizer this time.

The reason I do it that way is that some of the characters relate the same scene as another character yet it's seen differently. Or just to make it clear that the scene has shifted another's point of view. Even then some readers have difficultly following what is happening.

 

[Brutal_One]

Early solution to this

Hi,

Another point is in my earliest of submissions I had the same conundrum. I had one conversation between the two main characters where the thoughts during that conversation for each character were important. There were different views of how to manage but I wanted to split it between chapters. Plot wise between chapter 2 and Chapter 4 there was chapter 3 relaying a different part of the story but same timelines.

It was difficult not to listen to the sage advice which was to do it in one chapter and how.

My gut however told me it would not have the same impact. In the end I went for my gut and wrote it as envisaged.

Why the angst you might ask?

I knew I needed the impact of the two sets of thoughts was significant. It’s human nature to read and process information quickly so it would have registered as one conversation (which it was) but not the important impact of the thought pattern.

Long story short. It worked! Writing it as I did with an intervening short chapter 3 in between.

Chapter 4 had an H! I agree it is maybe an unusual example but it was good to get some input from AH - especially as a beginning writer - however trust your gut instinct too.

Brutal One

 

[Lifestyle66]

And if the POV changes...

Stacy ****

John ****

Harry ****

No need to spell out the person. More like:
*****

She stopped near the door looking at a rubber bulb syringe which would be handy for cleaning her ass. She took the bulb from the wall and continued toward the ladies room.

Gary’s jaw dropped in surprise. He turned to the last guy who was fucking Allison. “Lube up. You’re first in when she comes back.”

*****
<b>Office</b>

Cheryl glanced at her watch, seeing they had been gone 45 minutes since they left the bar. Steve was sipping his scotch and watching the girls on the bed.



*****


But I sometimes place the location in bold.

 

[PennameWombat]

And if the POV changes...

Stacy ****

John ****

Harry ****

Considering James S.A. Corey does the same as above in The Expanse series, I figured I could use it too. My glacially-slowly advancing chaptered series, Chronicle: Mel & Chris, uses this. It started purely in Chris's POV (third person, limited, or close, or whatever the hell we call it today) but as more characters were introduced more POVs were added.

And, yes, in many cases those POVs are viewing the same scene. Not usually like Rashomon, each going through the full scene, but picking up from one another with slight overlap and continuing forward. Although I've done the other a few times, but usually across multiple stories, where multiple different characters see the same scene through their eyes (most recently in my AI Era story where it overlapped with a scene from my Valentine's 2021 story.)

No need to spell out the person. More like:
*****

She stopped near the door looking at a rubber bulb syringe which would be handy for cleaning her ass. She took the bulb from the wall and continued toward the ladies room.

<snip>

Why 'no need'? And I do it this way other times.

There is no right way. It all depends on the feel you want, how much 'attention' to bring to a character/narrator, etc.

 

[SimonDoom]

Why 'no need'? And I do it this way other times.

There is no right way. It all depends on the feel you want, how much 'attention' to bring to a character/narrator, etc.

I don't think "need" is the operative word here. It's what suits your own artistic purposes.

My highest-rated story features numbered chapters in which the POV shifts from the male character to the female character in alternating chapters. I named the first two chapters after the characters, as a way of introducing the reader to them separately. I think it worked, and it seems to have worked as far as the readers have been concerned.

I haven't done this sense, and I don't think it's necessary, but it can work, and that's what matters.

I'll confess: I don't like alternating first person, most of the time. I know some like it, but I don't. It seems contrived to me. I ask myself, how would this come about? If I want multiple perspectives I'll use third person alternating limited, or third person omniscient. I personally find those two POVs much more effective and less contrived ways to tell a story from different perspectives than alternating first person POV. In both popular and "literary" fiction, there are relatively few examples of alternating first person POV, and there are good reasons for that.

 

[Zeb_Carter]

No need to spell out the person. More like:
*****

She stopped near the door looking at a rubber bulb syringe which would be handy for cleaning her ass. She took the bulb from the wall and continued toward the ladies room.

Gary’s jaw dropped in surprise. He turned to the last guy who was fucking Allison. “Lube up. You’re first in when she comes back.”

*****
<b>Office</b>

Cheryl glanced at her watch, seeing they had been gone 45 minutes since they left the bar. Steve was sipping his scotch and watching the girls on the bed.



*****


But I sometimes place the location in bold.

But what you are doing is just changing scenes not the POV everything you typed is in third person so it's the same narrator in all cases.

*** Nancy

I was walking down the street from where I parked my car and who should I see walking in front of me...

*** Bill

Nancy came up behind me. I had seen her as she came out of the parking structure.

*** Carol

I started to laugh when Nancy tapped Bill on the shoulder and he started to walk faster.

"Hey you two, knock it off and get to work!" I shouted.

-----

 

[Lifestyle66]

...
Why 'no need'? And I do it this way other times.

There is no right way. It all depends on the feel you want, how much 'attention' to bring to a character/narrator, etc.

I'm not an experienced writer, so mine was an opinion based on others critiquing my earlier use of dialog tags at the beginning of a sentence: Jan said "...."

I would do that believing the reader needed to know up front whose voice to use.

And my only reason for placing the location tags is due to using MS Word and headings to quickly jump around during editing. So, I left those tags, and use bold HTML for the reader to know the scene is changing, too.

But, as you said, it's whatever methods the writer needs to feel comfortable.