3 Men Win Award As Female Writer

[HeyAll]

They won a million euros for a crime thriller book series, where they wrote under a female name.

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2..._medium&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1634425039

 

[Bramblethorn]

It could never happen here.

 

[TadOverdon]

Well, they did nothing wrong.

Nominating committees in this kind of circumstance should vet if they consider this kind of thing an embarrassment.

At least it wasn't a Nobel, huh?

 

[MelissaBaby]

Well, they did nothing wrong.

Nominating committees in this kind of circumstance should vet if they consider this kind of thing an embarrassment.

At least it wasn't a Nobel, huh?

She Changed Astronomy Forever.
He Won the Nobel Prize For It.

 

[StrangeLife]

Anybody considering this problematic is implying, that the gender of a writer is a factor in the quality of a story.

That would be sexism...

 

[SimonDoom]

Anybody considering this problematic is implying, that the gender of a writer is a factor in the quality of a story.

That would be sexism...

Not necessarily. One can believe that it's appropriate to have separate categories for men and women in a writing contest (I'm not sure it's a great idea, but one can), without believing that either men or women are better than the other at writing. Being upset at the result just means one is upset that the men violated the rules and won without being qualified to win.

 

[MelissaBaby]

Not necessarily. One can believe that it's appropriate to have separate categories for men and women in a writing contest (I'm not sure it's a great idea, but one can), without believing that either men or women are better than the other at writing. Being upset at the result just means one is upset that the men violated the rules and won without being qualified to win.

In this case, it does not appear that they violated any rules. From what I read, it's neither a gendered award nor a competition they entered, but an open process, such as the Pulitzer Prize.

I think it would cause a stir if any popular, well regarded author, particularly one who had given multiple interviews, was revealed to actually be a pseudonym for a committee of writers, regardless of gender considerations.

 

[StrangeLife]

Being upset at the result just means one is upset that the men violated the rules and won without being qualified to win.

But that would still imply, that being men would somehow have given them an unfair competitive advantage, right? And if you accept that as a truth, you are effectively saying that men are inherently better writers than women.

Besides The Planeta Prize is not gender specific. They violated no rules. But if the judges chose the winner based on gender, they were acting outside the spirit of the competition...

 

[MelissaBaby]

But that would still imply, that being men would somehow have given them an unfair competitive advantage, right? And if you accept that as a truth, you are effectively saying that men are inherently better writers than women.

Or, you could be saying that the selection process is in some way inherently biased toward male writers.

 

[StrangeLife]

Or, you could be saying that the selection process is in some way inherently biased toward male writers.

Yeah, that probably comes closer. I suspect that the outrage is founded in today's sad tendency to inject identity politics into everything, regardless of whether its appropriate or not.

 

[MillieDynamite]

But that would still imply, that being men would somehow have given them an unfair competitive advantage, right? And if you accept that as a truth, you are effectively saying that men are inherently better writers than women.

Besides The Planeta Prize is not gender specific. They violated no rules. But if the judges chose the winner based on gender, they were acting outside the spirit of the competition...

Women have used initials or used men's first names as writers for over one hundred years. The reason was the built in bias against women in society, often by other women. The misogyny in society systematically held women down for five plus millennia throughout recorded history. Even as late as the mid 20th century women held no property rights when marriage's dissolved.

I have no problem with men opting to write as women, it shows a glimmer of intelligence to know that in this day and age, women are beginning to get their due.

 

[SimonDoom]

But that would still imply, that being men would somehow have given them an unfair competitive advantage, right? And if you accept that as a truth, you are effectively saying that men are inherently better writers than women.

Besides The Planeta Prize is not gender specific. They violated no rules. But if the judges chose the winner based on gender, they were acting outside the spirit of the competition...

No, it doesn't necessarily imply that.

For instance, there are separate categories for men and women for the acting category at the Academy Awards. There is no implication that one gender is better than the other at acting. It's just tradition.

If a man disguised himself as a woman, a la Tootsie, and won the Best Acting award, I think people would rightly regard his actions as a violation of the rules, and that he was not entitled to the award, because he was not a woman. But the outrage would not be based on an implication that one gender is better at acting than the other. It's just that he would not have satisfied the criteria and wouldn't be entitled to it.

 

[MillieDynamite]

No, it doesn't necessarily imply that.

For instance, there are separate categories for men and women for the acting category at the Academy Awards. There is no implication that one gender is better than the other at acting. It's just tradition.

If a man disguised himself as a woman, a la Tootsie, and won the Best Acting award, I think people would rightly regard his actions as a violation of the rules, and that he was not entitled to the award, because he was not a woman. But the outrage would not be based on an implication that one gender is better at acting than the other. It's just that he would not have satisfied the criteria and wouldn't be entitled to it.

Linda Hunt (a woman about as smaller than me 4' 9" to 4' 10") won the Academy Best Supporting Actress Award for playing a man in the Year of Living Dangerously.

Did I mention she is one of my heroes in life?

 

[StrangeLife]

No, it doesn't necessarily imply that.

For instance, there are separate categories for men and women for the acting category at the Academy Awards. There is no implication that one gender is better than the other at acting. It's just tradition.

If a man disguised himself as a woman, a la Tootsie, and won the Best Acting award, I think people would rightly regard his actions as a violation of the rules, and that he was not entitled to the award, because he was not a woman. But the outrage would not be based on an implication that one gender is better at acting than the other. It's just that he would not have satisfied the criteria and wouldn't be entitled to it.

You can argue though that acting is a gender specific activity.

The actor is highly visible and has to portray the character in looks and behavior as well as speaking the dialogue. There are of course a few actors who transcends gender, but in general it makes perfect sense to be gender specific at the Oscars. Male and female roles require very different talents and skills.

When it comes to writing, on the other hand, it makes no sense.

Which is also reflected by the fact, that the rules of the Planeta Prize allow submissions under pseudonyms. In many cases the judges don't even know the right identity of the authors they consider, let alone the gender.


If this had been a prize specifically directed a promoting female authors, it would be a different matter of course. Then I would agree that it was fraudulent behavior...

 

[lovecraft68]

I don't see where this matters.

In the erotica genre, a female pen name does have an advantage because you're writing about sex, and there are guys out there who are still so insecure in their own manhood that they won't read erotica written by a man because if it turns them on it means they might have 'the gay"

But on other genres I'm not sure I see an advantage or disadvantage to a male or female pen name. As for the argument its misleading...well if you're writing under a name that's not yours, isn't that misleading> Even if its your gender?

I think if this matters to you-general you not targeting anyone here-then you might have to question whether or not you have some issues going on. We're talking about writing, these aren't guys catfishing on the internet pretending to be women and looking for money.

I think I'll file this one under the headings of Who cares, and if you do, try growing up.

 

[lovecraft68]

Not necessarily. One can believe that it's appropriate to have separate categories for men and women in a writing contest (I'm not sure it's a great idea, but one can), without believing that either men or women are better than the other at writing. Being upset at the result just means one is upset that the men violated the rules and won without being qualified to win.

The only person who would consider separate writing categories based on gender, is a sexist.

Writing is not a physical competition where you could say that size and strength favors one gender,(like football) writing is a creative talent/skill, and there is no advantage for one gender over another.

I think the only people butthurt about this are the ones that might have found themselves wondering about the authors...maybe a little crush, then Oh, shit, that's a guy!

I do wonder though if it were women writing as men if the controversy wouldn't be even worse. "Dem bitches tryin ta act like us mensss!"

 

[lovecraft68]

Horror/Thriller author Michael Slade is three people, a father/daughter and I forget if the other is son or son-in-law

 

[MillieDynamite]

Ellery Queen was two men writing together, but not always the same two men. And none of them were named Ellery or Queen.

But they were writing as men and were men, so not exactly what we are talking about.

 

[SimonDoom]

Writing is not a physical competition where you could say that size and strength favors one gender,(like football) writing is a creative talent/skill, and there is no advantage for one gender over another.

It's possible that there could be bias in the judging, favoring one gender over the other, and that having two categories could even the playing field. I don't know this to be true, but it's possible, so having separate categories wouldn't necessarily be sexist. I agree it makes no sense from the standpoint of talent or ability.

 

[MillieDynamite]

It's possible that there could be bias in the judging, favoring one gender over the other, and that having two categories could even the playing field. I don't know this to be true, but it's possible, so having separate categories wouldn't necessarily be sexist. I agree it makes no sense from the standpoint of talent or ability.

I feel it would be sexist in that type of award. The acting thing is to have more awards and a variety of winners. In the early days of the Academy only men would have won, just as only white men and women have won a majority of the awards handed out by the Academy over the years. Just as only a few women have won directing awards over the history of the damn thing.

 

[lovecraft68]

I feel it would be sexist in that type of award. The acting thing is to have more awards and a variety of winners. In the early days of the Academy only men would have won, just as only white men and women have won a majority of the awards handed out by the Academy over the years. Just as only a few women have won directing awards over the history of the damn thing.

Agreed, but the issues involved there are, if you separate women or other groups, then you're not solving the issue you're doing a "yeah, let them have their token awards, the real ones will always be ours" the culture has to change in the regime so that its one group and anyone can win, that way its You're the best, not you're the best of your little marginalized have a pat on the head.

These days there is a big problem-that people seem not to want to discuss-where pandering and tokenism to gain for lack of a better term "woke points" is really pandering and tokenism, which is another form or racism or sexism.

Segregating the awards(yay, look we brought that back, and no one's caught on!) Even worse if I heard talk of a "quota" that so many have to go to different groups so now if you're a woman or black actor its "did I earn this or did they have to give it to me."

Perfect example, even if you're not into sports, is to look into the NFL's "Rooney Rule" that's exactly what all this crap is.

It needs to be made fair at the top, not splintered off into groups.

 

[TadOverdon]

If this had been a prize specifically directed a promoting female authors, it would be a different matter of course. Then I would agree that it was fraudulent behavior...

Yes, this would be the problematic situation.

 

[SimonDoom]

Agreed, but the issues involved there are, if you separate women or other groups, then you're not solving the issue you're doing a "yeah, let them have their token awards, the real ones will always be ours" the culture has to change in the regime so that its one group and anyone can win, that way its You're the best, not you're the best of your little marginalized have a pat on the head.

These days there is a big problem-that people seem not to want to discuss-where pandering and tokenism to gain for lack of a better term "woke points" is really pandering and tokenism, which is another form or racism or sexism.

Segregating the awards(yay, look we brought that back, and no one's caught on!) Even worse if I heard talk of a "quota" that so many have to go to different groups so now if you're a woman or black actor its "did I earn this or did they have to give it to me."

Perfect example, even if you're not into sports, is to look into the NFL's "Rooney Rule" that's exactly what all this crap is.

It needs to be made fair at the top, not splintered off into groups.

I tend to agree. It's best to hold everyone to the same standard. As I said before, theoretically I could imagine someone having separate awards for men and women in writing, perhaps because of a desire to correct perceived bias, but on balance I don't think it's a good idea. Plenty of women have demonstrated they can compete with men when it comes to writing. There's no difference, in terms of skill.

The Rooney Rule is a little different. The impetus behind it is that historically there's been a bias against hiring black coaches. And it's true -- there was. The rule doesn't impose quotas or require teams to hire minority coaches; it just says they have to make a good faith effort to interview them. We're getting a lot closer to the point where I think that bias is disappearing and a rule like this won't be needed.

 

[MillieDynamite]

I tend to agree. It's best to hold everyone to the same standard. As I said before, theoretically I could imagine someone having separate awards for men and women in writing, perhaps because of a desire to correct perceived bias, but on balance I don't think it's a good idea. Plenty of women have demonstrated they can compete with men when it comes to writing. There's no difference, in terms of skill.

The Rooney Rule is a little different. The impetus behind it is that historically there's been a bias against hiring black coaches. And it's true -- there was. The rule doesn't impose quotas or require teams to hire minority coaches; it just says they have to make a good faith effort to interview them. We're getting a lot closer to the point where I think that bias is disappearing and a rule like this won't be needed.

The rule is specific they must interview one minority for each opening. It doesn't tell them to hire or not hire them. So, yeah, totally different.

I like seeing the women officials in the NFL. I know the player can't touch them, but they can't touch the men either, but seeing a 110 pound, 5 foot 5" inch woman toss the flag and stand toe to toe with the player, towering over, and not back down or change her call, that's cool.

 

[LAHomedog]

I read the article and surfed about the prize a bit and find the entire thing amusing.

They didn't do anything wrong. There was no cheating. The collaborate and wrote a series of books under a woman name. I'll admit, I'm impressed by the talent of the men. They are such good writers, they were able to write in a female voice, become best-sellers and fool judges. Talented writers.

Now I want to read the books. I assume they are translated.