Cyber-cheating. Is It Really Cheating?

[JohnsonLongwood]

It's not really cheating if we're just pretending, is it?

I woman I know here let me know at the start of our chats that she likes to play but doesn't meet men and cheat on her husband. The great distance between our homes makes that a moot point between the two of us regardless. She did want to establish that as her personal limit and I respect that. But it doesn't count as cheating if it's only make believe. Though I didn't expect it, we've been quite intimately naughty together in PM's and video chat and picture sharing, fantasizing about the things we would do if we could.

So I wonder, what do other's here think about this. Without sparking a moral debate about fidelity, given people's reasons and expectations in being active here without judgement, what are your boundaries? Where do (or would) you draw the line between real life cheating and fantasy and make believe and wishful dreaming?

 

[AveryElle]

Would the other person be angry or upset or hurt if they discovered you doing it? Are your exploring things you ‘can’t discuss’ with your actual partner? Then to me, yep. If you’re hurting your partner, doesn’t matter how you’re doing it. And to me, if they’ll do that behind their partner’s back, they’ll do similar behind mine.

ETA: I don’t care if you’re doing it. You do you.

 

[JohnsonLongwood]

Would the other person be angry or upset or hurt if they discovered you doing it? Are your exploring things you ‘can’t discuss’ with your actual partner? Then to me, yep. If you’re hurting your partner, doesn’t matter how you’re doing it. And to me, if they’ll do that behind their partner’s back, they’ll do similar behind mine.

ETA: I don’t care if you’re doing it. You do you.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I do understand your point. And I appreciate your non-judgemental approach. I accept that everyone's own circumstances and relationships and needs are different. Everyone here is here for a reason important to themselves and I hope people get what they want out of the experiences.

 

[AlpineFresco]

Would the other person be angry or upset or hurt if they discovered you doing it? Are your exploring things you ‘can’t discuss’ with your actual partner? Then to me, yep. If you’re hurting your partner, doesn’t matter how you’re doing it. And to me, if they’ll do that behind their partner’s back, they’ll do similar behind mine.

ETA: I don’t care if you’re doing it. You do you.

I think this is a fair description.
I see a lot of justification of 'well I don't consider it cheating so it isn't', but that's denying your partner their say on things, and how your partner would feel is critical.

In OP's post, though, 'make-believe' is cited, and... it's not. There's an exchange of sexually charged material, from one real person to another. It may not be in-person, but it's not imaginary - it involves another real person

I think an interesting additional set of questions would be, if you follow this chain, believe your partner would feel cheated on by your sexting/video calls/whatever... what do you then do? How do you re-categorise yourself? Does it inspire any changes in behaviour?

For clarity - anytime I say 'you' in here, I mean 'a person', not anybody specifically.

 

[Dribble]

I think this is a fair description.
I see a lot of justification of 'well I don't consider it cheating so it isn't', but that's denying your partner their say on things, and how your partner would feel is critical.

In OP's post, though, 'make-believe' is cited, and... it's not. There's an exchange of sexually charged material, from one real person to another. It may not be in-person, but it's not imaginary - it involves another real person

I think an interesting additional set of questions would be, if you follow this chain, believe your partner would feel cheated on by your sexting/video calls/whatever... what do you then do? How do you re-categorise yourself? Does it inspire any changes in behaviour?

For clarity - anytime I say 'you' in here, I mean 'a person', not anybody specifically.

Exactly right. If it wasn't cheating, there would no reason to keep it secret from the significant other. Another way to ID the difference is asking yourself...would I if I can get away with it?

There is no one set of morals. I can only speak for myself using the only morals that apply to me.

For me, fantasy is what goes on in my head.....alone. Anything else is a real life personal interaction.

 

[JohnsonLongwood]

I appreciate the thoughts and comments. From individual perspectives in the context of personal experience and expectations, looking one at a time at each tree in the forest that way, they are spot on. But it's a big forest. Not all relationships are the same and assumptions of normalcy cannot be assumed universally.

I knew a woman many years ago on an xxx dating site who's husband had told her that she had gotten too old and fat for sex. When, in frustration, she suggested she'd find a young man to satisfy her and he said she'd never find any who'd want to she joined that dating site. And she proved to herself many times that she was still quite desirable. For her own reasons she stayed in the marriage and I respected her for that as only she knows what's best for her. (I lived far away so, no, we never did.) She did not share her secret life with her husband. Given that one can make an argument that his treatment of her was psychologically abusive her secrecy may well be justified, but that's her call to make, not mine. It's a big world and everyone's circumstances are different.

If it's all in one's own mind it's not cheating seems to be somewhat accepted. It's just wishful cheating. Now. if one masturbates to orgasm while fantasizing about, say, a heartthrob celebrity, is that still not cheating? Or does the act of having an orgasm without one's partner, depriving them of enjoying it as well, count as cheating?

 

[AlpineFresco]

"Now. if one masturbates to orgasm while fantasizing about, say, a heartthrob celebrity, is that still not cheating? Or does the act of having an orgasm without one's partner, depriving them of enjoying it as well, count as cheating?"

That doesn't involve the participation of another person.

eg you can fantasise about me all you like, but the real Alpine is not involved in any way, nor was I ever so it's not even memories, it's just... it's all you.

So no.

There may be some controlling partners who would take exception to this, but that's a big red flag so run Forrest.

 

[JohnsonLongwood]

"Now. if one masturbates to orgasm while fantasizing about, say, a heartthrob celebrity, is that still not cheating? Or does the act of having an orgasm without one's partner, depriving them of enjoying it as well, count as cheating?"

That doesn't involve the participation of another person.

eg you can fantasise about me all you like, but the real Alpine is not involved in any way, nor was I ever so it's not even memories, it's just... it's all you.

So no.

There may be some controlling partners who would take exception to this, but that's a big red flag so run Forrest.

Are there contexts in the forest different from your own individual perspective that changes the paradigm? Or does it apply universally to all relationships in all possible contexts and perspectives?

 

[Dribble]

Dribble's First Rule of Reality: Justification of one's actions...or will be actions...is about them convincing themselves they are right when they know they are wrong.

This Rule is an absolute. There is NEVER an exception. People don't need to "explain" their actions or beliefs to others if they aren't asked. No one cares. So why do it? To seek affirmation.

Cheating is never defined by you (you is used generically). It is defined by your partner if you have not previously defined it with them. Again, this is an absolute.

This is true for me too. It is the sure way I identify something I shouldn't do. Do I justify it? If I do...I am 100% in the wrong.

 

[AlpineFresco]

Dribble's First Rule of Reality: Justification of one's actions...or will be actions...is about them convincing themselves they are right when they know they are wrong.

This Rule is an absolute. There is NEVER an exception. People don't need to "explain" their actions or beliefs to others if they aren't asked. No one cares. So why do it? To seek affirmation.

Cheating is never defined by you (you is used generically). It is defined by your partner if you have not previously defined it with them. Again, this is an absolute.

This is true for me too. It is the sure way I identify something I shouldn't do. Do I justify it? If I do...I am 100% in the wrong.

Basically!

Are there contexts in the forest different from your own individual perspective that changes the paradigm? Or does it apply universally to all relationships in all possible contexts and perspectives?

Honestly not sure what you're looking for with this. I basically said an additional party (when your relationship has had no words on additional parties) is required for it to be cheating. That seems pretty straightforward. You may disagree!

 

[JohnsonLongwood]

I believe that context and perspective are necessary components of rational understanding and that their absence creates a skewed or narrowed reality. I also understand that some my feel otherwise.

 

[AveryElle]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I do understand your point. And I appreciate your non-judgemental approach. I accept that everyone's own circumstances and relationships and needs are different. Everyone here is here for a reason important to themselves and I hope people get what they want out of the experiences.

Where judgment creeps in is when people say ‘relationships are all about communication!’ or other axioms when blatantly not doing that. But generally, cheating happens when the other person would be gutted to learn what you’re up to here. Doesn’t mean the person doing it cares how it will impact their partner.

I find the justification process fascinating. Again, you do you.

 

[AveryElle]

eg you can fantasise about me all you like, but the real Alpine is not involved in any way, nor was I ever so it's not even memories, it's just... it's all you.

Excuse me??!!

 

[AlpineFresco]

Excuse me??!!

I can't help the wild fantasies Johnson Longwood may have about me.

But, you, of course, have memories

 

[JohnsonLongwood]

I see a greater diversity in what relationships are and I believe that each can only be evaluated or understood on it's own terms. The "walk a mile in their moccasins" thing.

I used too joke that this would never work for my mother-in-law because she wouldn't take her own shoes off first. I accept my friend's distinction about cyber play because I trust her feelings and instincts about herself and in her context and perspective as she accepts mine.

Time changes everything and as people change their relationships evolve with those changes and that adds yet different contexts and perspectives.

 

[JohnsonLongwood]

I can't help the wild fantasies Johnson Longwood may have about me.

But, you, of course, have memories

You may be relieved to know I don't have any. You've given me neither reason nor permission to.

 

[AveryElle]

I see a greater diversity in what relationships are and I believe that each can only be evaluated or understood on it's own terms. The "walk a mile in their moccasins" thing.

I used too joke that this would never work for my mother-in-law because she wouldn't take her own shoes off first. I accept my friend's distinction about cyber play because I trust her feelings and instincts about herself and in her context and perspective as she accepts mine.

Time changes everything and as people change their relationships evolve with those changes and that adds yet different contexts and perspectives.

If only one of you changes to believe that cyber isn’t cheating, it’s still cheating. You’re just justifying it to yourself that way. It doesn’t mean anything to anyone here, but why ask if it’s cheating? You can’t define it for the person in your relationship who has no idea what you’re up to. It’s like ‘we’re moving!’ But your spouse doesn’t know. You’re not moving until you both agree.

 

[Stillrandy]

It's not really cheating if we're just pretending, is it?
So I wonder, what do other's here think about this. Without sparking a moral debate about fidelity, given people's reasons and expectations in being active here without judgement, what are your boundaries? Where do (or would) you draw the line between real life cheating and fantasy and make believe and wishful dreaming?

A test: if your partner did the same thing would you consider it cheating on you?

 

[AmberLGreen]

My personal opinion is that it isn’t cheating. When my husband and I were together, if I had walked in on him on the phone having a wank to the person on the other end, I would have apologised for disturbing him and asked him how long he thought he would be.

I think a person should know their partner well enough to know what their thoughts would be on it. If you think they would see it as cheating then it is. It is your choice how you deal with that. If you know they would see it as cheating and you still do it then that is disrespectful and a whole different topic all together.

I am single at the moment so messing around online is up to me and I am not cheating anybody. If I ever do go into a relationship again, then that would change because of my own moral stance.

 

[JohnsonLongwood]

My personal opinion is that it isn’t cheating. When my husband and I were together, if I had walked in on him on the phone having a wank to the person on the other end, I would have apologised for disturbing him and asked him how long he thought he would be.

I think a person should know their partner well enough to know what their thoughts would be on it. If you think they would see it as cheating then it is. It is your choice how you deal with that. If you know they would see it as cheating and you still do it then that is disrespectful and a whole different topic all together.

I am single at the moment so messing around online is up to me and I am not cheating anybody. If I ever do go into a relationship again, then that would change because of my own moral stance.

Thanks for sharing a different perspective. Back before aging robbed her of the joy of it, my wife often found my love making extra frisky and satisfying when I had had chat or phone sex that day. She would even encourage me to do more of whatever made me that horny. My make believe cheating enhanced her experience.

Which gets to this on which there are two sides expressed here. My feeling is it is not sex unless it is real and in person. Everything else is just conversation, tittilating as it may be. Obviously many disagree.

 

[mynameisben]

"It depends upon what the meaning of the word 'is' is." - Bill Clinton

 

[JohnsonLongwood]

Are you hiding your phone from them?
Then, yep.

No. Never have.

 

[JohnsonLongwood]

"It depends upon what the meaning of the word 'is' is." - Bill Clinton

Semantic game playing is ambiguous and unenlightening. But thanks for weighing in.

 

[JohnsonLongwood]

A test: if your partner did the same thing would you consider it cheating on you?

I'll answer this much broader question instead. If "circumstances were reversed" would I consider it cheating on me?"

No.

 

[Billwebb33]

Yes it's cheating for me, it's more about the intention than just the act.