Looking back-Maybe they were right?

[lovecraft68]

Someone left a comment on a story I published here in 2012 last night. After I read it, I decided to skim through some of the other comments because being 9 years old I'd be damned if I could remember them.

A couple stuck out to me because they called out something in the story that at the time I blew off, and thought, well that's your opinion, its not what was there.

Except when I reread the comments, then started remembering the story I realized...they weren't wrong. It still wasn't my intent for the story or what I was gong for, but I now clearly see their point because looking back I see it their way.

Part of it, I'm sure, is simply over the years becoming a better writer with more ability to convey exactly what I want and take the reader down that path with me. Part of it, I wonder, is being close to 10 years older and maybe I've changed somewhat, the story seemed a great plot/idea then now I have twinges of...okay, what exactly was running through my head at that time?

Also, maybe I'm more receptive to differing opinions? I'm not referring to trolling remarks or comments from people who clearly have some over the top agenda that we get all the time, but the sought after gems of someone who put thought into the comment and well spoken enough to make a good point.

Maybe when the story is new and we're still excited about it and proud of it, we tend to be "yeah, okay, agree to disagree" but time passes and we can look back and say..."Hmm, they weren't wrong."

Ever experience this type of self awareness, realize you may have missed the mark or at the least the reader you rolled your eyes at was, in fact, right?

 

[WinsomeWeb]

Some years ago, when I was but a teen, I was posting stories elsewhere. There was one guy who I'd traded feedback with a few times in public comments. He was incredibly kind, but also very good at giving feedback. I remember writing this story that I felt great about, and he left me a comment that boiled down to "I think you're too close to this." I wasn't offended, but I just wrote it off as him not "getting it." It was only a year or so later when I read the story again and barely remembered what I'd written that I was like, ah, yeah, I see your point.

I think about that comment all the time when I write, and how hard it is to get perspective on something you've sunk dozens (or hundreds) of hours into.

I like to draw and paint, and one thing that was recommended to me early on was using a mirror if you're painting traditionally, or flipping your canvas if you're painting digitally. It forces your brain to see the piece in a new way, and it becomes much easier to see, at a glance, what you've done wrong. But, in all my life, I've never discovered a way to do that with writing. There's no way to view the entirety of a piece in a single glimpse by yourself, and I think that makes it very hard for writers to see what they've actually written, and not just what they were trying to write.

In my opinion, this is really why beta readers are so valuable. Having someone whose critical eye you both trust and whose opinion you are willing to listen to, that can say in a kind way, "Hey man, this is fucking stupid," is the only way I can seem to get objectivity about something that I haven't taken months or years away from.

And I really do find, like in this case for you, it can often take years before I'm able to come back to something and both enjoy it and see it more critically.

 

[lovecraft68]

Some years ago, when I was but a teen, I was posting stories elsewhere. There was one guy who I'd traded feedback with a few times in public comments. He was incredibly kind, but also very good at giving feedback. I remember writing this story that I felt great about, and he left me a comment that boiled down to "I think you're too close to this." I wasn't offended, but I just wrote it off as him not "getting it." It was only a year or so later when I read the story again and barely remembered what I'd written that I was like, ah, yeah, I see your point.

I think about that comment all the time when I write, and how hard it is to get perspective on something you've sunk dozens (or hundreds) of hours into.

I like to draw and paint, and one thing that was recommended to me early on was using a mirror if you're painting traditionally, or flipping your canvas if you're painting digitally. It forces your brain to see the piece in a new way, and it becomes much easier to see, at a glance, what you've done wrong. But, in all my life, I've never discovered a way to do that with writing. There's no way to view the entirety of a piece in a single glimpse by yourself, and I think that makes it very hard for writers to see what they've actually written, and not just what they were trying to write.

In my opinion, this is really why beta readers are so valuable. Having someone whose critical eye you both trust and whose opinion you are willing to listen to, that can say in a kind way, "Hey man, this is fucking stupid," is the only way I can seem to get objectivity about something that I haven't taken months or years away from.

And I really do find, like in this case for you, it can often take years before I'm able to come back to something and both enjoy it and see it more critically.

Too close on this was exactly the tone of the comments I'm referring to. At the time I wrote it, I knew the story was 'iffy' and walked a line between being kind of out there, but nothing dark, but had the potential to spin the other way.

In the end I guess I overestimated my ability to be clever, or pull off the writing version of a tightrope act. Maybe then I was convinced I pulled it off because I didn't want to think I didn't and have people misinterpret the intent of the story.

I mentioned it to my wife last night because it kept nagging at me, and she suggested if I saw the story in a bad light now, then remove it. But I won't do that, for me its a good reminder, a learning curve that I didn't know I was still learning.

I did it to a story for sale a few months ago, wrote it in flow, then after a couple weeks edited it and shook my head because 'in flow' took me to one of those dark places in my head the muse seems to like to take a tour of from time to time.

I rewrote a few paragraphs and added a short epilogue so this way the reader couldn't misconstrue what happened and how the MC felt about it. So, I guess over time I improved at least in the area of taking my time and being sure of what I'm publishing.

Thanks for your reply.

 

[gunhilltrain]

Too close on this was exactly the tone of the comments I'm referring to. At the time I wrote it, I knew the story was 'iffy' and walked a line between being kind of out there, but nothing dark, but had the potential to spin the other way.

In the end I guess I overestimated my ability to be clever, or pull off the writing version of a tightrope act. Maybe then I was convinced I pulled it off because I didn't want to think I didn't and have people misinterpret the intent of the story.

I mentioned it to my wife last night because it kept nagging at me, and she suggested if I saw the story in a bad light now, then remove it. But I won't do that, for me its a good reminder, a learning curve that I didn't know I was still learning.

I did it to a story for sale a few months ago, wrote it in flow, then after a couple weeks edited it and shook my head because 'in flow' took me to one of those dark places in my head the muse seems to like to take a tour of from time to time.

I rewrote a few paragraphs and added a short epilogue so this way the reader couldn't misconstrue what happened and how the MC felt about it. So, I guess over time I improved at least in the area of taking my time and being sure of what I'm publishing.

Thanks for your reply.

It's happened to me once. I ran across a year-old comment (someone had just posted a new one below it) and I decided that the guy (I think it was a male) was right. He wasn't exactly polite but he wasn't overly nasty either. I wrote a new version based on his ideas, and posted it elsewhere. It turned into a series eventually.

So I read what they say with an open mind. If they've got something, then I may use it.

 

[SimonDoom]

Yes, there is a particular type of comment I've received multiple times to different stories that has given me pause and caused me to reflect on what I'm writing.

I enjoy dominance-submission stories, where the man is the dominant. I enjoy stories that skirt the boundaries of nonconsent, or where the man persuades the woman to do something sexually risky, like putting herself in a position of extreme exhibitionism in public.

Most of the readers seem to really like those stories. But a few react very negatively to the man. They think he's being a jerk. Some readers have even said things like "he should go to jail."

I enjoy erotica that is over-the-top, whimsical, and not necessarily realistic. Quite a few of my stories, I think, fit that description. But I keep these comments in mind for future stories, because my goal in writing about what characters do is to walk the knife's edge, without necessarily falling over it. I don't want to push readers so far that I lose them because of plausibility concerns, or because they've come to hate my male characters (although for some kinds of stories, there's nothing I can do about that).

 

[lovecraft68]

Yes, there is a particular type of comment I've received multiple times to different stories that has given me pause and caused me to reflect on what I'm writing.

I enjoy dominance-submission stories, where the man is the dominant. I enjoy stories that skirt the boundaries of nonconsent, or where the man persuades the woman to do something sexually risky, like putting herself in a position of extreme exhibitionism in public.

Most of the readers seem to really like those stories. But a few react very negatively to the man. They think he's being a jerk. Some readers have even said things like "he should go to jail."

I enjoy erotica that is over-the-top, whimsical, and not necessarily realistic. Quite a few of my stories, I think, fit that description. But I keep these comments in mind for future stories, because my goal in writing about what characters do is to walk the knife's edge, without necessarily falling over it. I don't want to push readers so far that I lose them because of plausibility concerns, or because they've come to hate my male characters (although for some kinds of stories, there's nothing I can do about that).

The Non con/reluctance line is a thin one to walk, and everyone has different limits to what they feel the limit should be. As much as I don't like true non con, I know I've leaned just a little too close to it more than once. Never deliberate, but sometimes its just not easy to color between the lines all the time.

I recently asked another forum member to beta something for me. They felt the character was a little too mean and all the way through. They are right, my defense is he kept trying to get the girl to admit it was what she wanted and she was enjoying it in my mind as the all knowing author I know that had she admitted it, he'd have become more playful, but she refused to so he stayed in dick mode.

Who knows, maybe in two years I'll 100% think the reader was right.

On another note I deal with the opposite, I get these guys_I know they're all guys-telling me my sons are too wimpy, they're not bold with their mother, they act nervous and hesitant...I get "they're men! stop making them sissies"

My take is most 18-20 year old boys are not the sex machine porn stars these guys like to falsely recall themselves as being at that age, and also, this is their mother...not a random woman. They are committing a forbidden act. They are conditioned to respect and obey their mother, see her as authority, so the odds they're going to start treating her like a drunken coed or a cum dumpster are slim and none...to me, this is how it would be, not an attack on masculinity-which they have serious insecurities about apparently.

I do the same with some of my milf stories, the average 20 year old is out of his league with a 44 year old woman in sexual experience, but are more than happy to go for the ride and let them take the lead...mind my older women aren't acting dominant, just the one who is dictating the pace so to speak.

That's realism to me, obviously not to them. In this case I don't think its right or wrong as much as they have hang ups with something I don't.