Can We Talk About Race?

[JaxRhapsody]

Lincoln was six foot four. The tallest President of all time. People were shorter then than now so he really towered over people.

Aye... so am I.

 

[Jake_Raazor]

That's why I say woke people need to be a bit more sleepy. You can't browbeat your righteousness in to people...

Yeah, but I tend to think of 'woke' as not acting like a colossal dick. In my experience, the people who rail against 'woke' people tend to be colossal dicks.

Maybe I just got unlucky.

 

[CyranoJ]

Yeah, but I tend to think of 'woke' as not acting like a colossal dick. In my experience, the people who rail against 'woke' people tend to be colossal dicks.

Very often true. There actually are people under the "progressive" banner who are genuinely annoying or even toxic, but all too frequently, the people bitching about "wokeness" have no idea who or why or what the difference is. It's often just a blanket dismissal of Stuff That Makes Them Feel Seen.

That said:

That's why I say woke people need to be a bit more sleepy. You can't browbeat your righteousness in to people. If the world was an office; these would be those cheerful morning people, just so happy and god damned excited for no reason, the rest of us are normal, cursing being awake at the ungodly hour of 6am.

For my money, the really annoying flavor of wokescold are the ones who aren't there for any particular cause, but just to burnish their self-image as heroes of radicalism, boost their Twitter follows and maybe get to cyberbully someone into the bargain while pretending virtue. There's a whole ecosystem of fauxgressives like this; it describes a bunch of Bernie Sanders' former campaign staffers and the bulk of their following. They are a thing and they do suck. Mercifully, they're not that numerous in the greater scheme of things.

And all of that said: even these are far less annoying than the kind of thinly-veiled supremacist who is only ever in a thread about "race" to talk bullshit about how BLM are supposedly the real racists (and similar drivel).

That "I don't see color" shit is annoying. Yeah you do, you just told me how you got two black friends and your sibling married a latino, for clout. I actually never thought about this before; I am tired of the speeches.

I do feel this.

 

[8letters]

This is an interesting formulation of the test for story acceptability. I'm going to apply it to the story idea I'm working on.

The thing about this test is that I cannot tell if you are a racist, and we will never have a productive discussion about whether you are a racist or not. However, I think we can have a productive discussion about how a story lines up with how a racist would write it.

An educated, sophisticated woman who works in an office and self-identifies as a liberal-minded and non-racist person nevertheless fantasizes about sex with black men. Her fantasies indulge, to some degree, in cliches and stereotypes about black men -- extra masculine, big penises, etc. She fantasizes about her co-worker.

To me, this only works if the woman has very little experience interacting with black men. At this point, they are "the other" with traits associated with livestock. That the white woman is an educated, sophisticated liberal would, to me, increase the story's appeal to racists ("Those liberals are all n***** lovers").

Minor note: almost everyone thinks of themselves as non-racist. Donald Trump frequently said he was the most non-racist person in the world.

Back to your test: the difference between my story and the White Supremacist's version of the story is that in my story the white woman will feel guilt about her fantasies

A white supremacist would want the white woman to feel guilty about her fantasies.

and the black man will not conform to the White Supremacist's view of what a black man is. But in the end, there will be a twist, and sex will happen, and it may be unsettling for some people.

What exactly are you promising in this story? By that, I mean that by the initial set up and by the category you publish in, you promise a certain type of story. In "My European Summer Vacation", my American MMC falls for the Irish FMC. Because I posted it in I/T, there was a promise that there'd be sex between family members, and I don't think any reader was surprised when they found out well into the story that the MMC and FMC are half-siblings.

It sounds like you promise initially a racist "White woman surrenders to a black bull" story. If you don't deliver on your promise, you'll piss off your readers. How many readers will read the set up and decide that you are a racist and not worth reading anymore? If you're not delivering a "White woman surrenders to a black bull" story, why are you writing this story? What gives you insight into the challenges of interracial relationships?

 

[SimonDoom]

It sounds like you promise initially a racist "White woman surrenders to a black bull" story. If you don't deliver on your promise, you'll piss off your readers. How many readers will read the set up and decide that you are a racist and not worth reading anymore? If you're not delivering a "White woman surrenders to a black bull" story, why are you writing this story? What gives you insight into the challenges of interracial relationships?

I think this demands too much. I don't claim to have any particular insight. I'm a middle-aged white man with no special education or background that gives me any meaningful insight on this topic. Zero. None. I deny, categorically, that a special level of insight into interracial issues is a necessary precondition to writing a story of this type. The only precondition is . . . I want to.

My purpose for writing the story is to write a story that I think is erotic and interesting and will seem erotic and interesting to others. It may bother some people. My incest stories bother some people. So do yours. People may question why I write the story, or what my motives are, and I don't really give a damn. If someone reads the story and concludes, well, he must be a racist, then my conclusion is that that person is a damn fool and is an unintelligent reader. I'm not going to let my desire to write a story be thwarted by the existence of foolish readers.

I'm also reasonably confident, based on my experience at Literotica, that readers will not, in fact, conclude I'm a racist and stop reading my stories. Some might. I'm fairly confident that the risk of this is very small, even if I did care about it, which I don't.

I would analogize it to rape fantasies. Rape, in the real world, is an awful crime, which causes lasting trauma to its victims. Yet, it is a fact that women have rape fantasies. Why? Who knows? One can analyze that question until the cows come home. But in the meantime, there's an appetite for stories that serve that fantasy, and I see nothing wrong with writing such stories or reading such stories. That's my aesthetic philosophy. Others think differently. I see the indulgence of "white woman/black bull" fantasies exactly the same way. We can have a fascinating conversation for hours and hours about why people have such fantasies and how troubling they are, but in the meantime, the fantasies exist, and my view is if people want to indulge those fantasies, let them.

It's fantasy, folks. Just keep that in mind.

 

[XerXesXu]

I would analogize it to rape fantasies. Rape, in the real world, is an awful crime, which causes lasting trauma to its victims. Yet, it is a fact that women have rape fantasies. Why? Who knows? One can analyze that question until the cows come home. But in the meantime, there's an appetite for stories that serve that fantasy, and I see nothing wrong with writing such stories or reading such stories. That's my aesthetic philosophy. Others think differently. I see the indulgence of "white woman/black bull" fantasies exactly the same way. We can have a fascinating conversation for hours and hours about why people have such fantasies and how troubling they are, but in the meantime, the fantasies exist, and my view is if people want to indulge those fantasies, let them.

It's fantasy, folks. Just keep that in mind.

'Yet, it is a fact that rapists have rape fantasies. Why? Who knows? ....My view is if people want to indulge those fantasies, let them.

It's fantasy, folks. Just keep that in mind.'

I've changed the word women to rapist. Can you confirm that in your moral universe it would be equally unproblematic to 'feed the rapist'.

 

[gordo12]

I've changed the word women to rapist. Can you confirm that in your moral universe it would be equally unproblematic to 'feed the rapist'.

Yes, let's all keep heading down this path. We'll all be writing meaningless pap before we're finished.

"Pap NOUN: bland soft or semi-liquid food such as that suitable for babies or invalids:"

There is a distinct difference between social problems and people wanting to read about certain kinks.

Yes, we definitely need to work on the social problems.

Yes, we NEED to listen to customer's desires and produce the kind of literature that sells. Not sitting on a shelf gathering dust. Great for your social conscience but starvation sucks!

These are distinct and separate issues. Too many of you are blurring the lines between them.

 

[XerXesXu]

What is your point? Maybe rapists and child abusers and ... also like Romance; should I stop writing in Romance because some of the bad people might like it?


What do you mean by 'feed the rapist'? Encourage them? I don't think they need my stories to do their thing.

I think you illustrate the point about different moral universes perfectly.

 

[XerXesXu]

Yes, let's all keep heading down this path. We'll all be writing meaningless pap before we're finished.

No you won't.

 

[gordo12]

No you won't.

 

[SimonDoom]

' Can you confirm that in your moral universe it would be equally unproblematic to 'feed the rapist'.

This is a complicated question.

For starters, I object to the phrase "feed the rapist" as being argumentative, vague and ambiguous, and assuming facts not in evidence.

My general view (general -- not absolute) is that an artist is not obligated to create art that is "socially responsible." On the contrary, it is legitimate for an artist to create art that is transgressive or subversive or irreverent. I believe that in the long run there is social utility to such art.

We are all speculating about the possible harm that can result from publishing Literotica stories on transgressive topics -- stories that indulge fantasies about terrible things.

My default position is that the risk is tiny. I'm open to being proved wrong. My impression is that those who think otherwise have a lot of ideology on their side but not much evidence. I've read widely on these and related issues -- the effects of pornography, violent video games, violent TV shows, etc. -- for several decades. I'm not an expert, but I'm not wholly uninformed, either.

Will the publication of stories at Literotica about white women and black bulls reinforce racist attitudes in the real world and cause actual, tangible harm in the real world?

I don't know. I suppose it's possible. Based on everything I know, I doubt that it would cause any harm at all, and if there is a risk of harm it's tiny. And I weigh that against the pleasure people get in getting their rocks off reading the stories. To my way of thinking the scale tips in favor of letting people have their fun and in backing off of moralizing and shaming others so much.

Rapists have existed throughout history, in every society, and they exist in places where erotica of this sort is banned. I see no reason to believe that incest stories at Literotica will cause more incestuous abuse to exist. I see no reason to believe that non-con fantasy stories at Literotica will cause more rape to exist. I see no reason to believe that interracial erotica at Literotica will subject black people in the real world to more oppression.

 

[8letters]

This is a complicated question.

For starters, I object to the phrase "feed the rapist" as being argumentative, vague and ambiguous, and assuming facts not in evidence.

My general view (general -- not absolute) is that an artist is not obligated to create art that is "socially responsible." On the contrary, it is legitimate for an artist to create art that is transgressive or subversive or irreverent. I believe that in the long run there is social utility to such art.

We are all speculating about the possible harm that can result from publishing Literotica stories on transgressive topics -- stories that indulge fantasies about terrible things.

My default position is that the risk is tiny. I'm open to being proved wrong. My impression is that those who think otherwise have a lot of ideology on their side but not much evidence. I've read widely on these and related issues -- the effects of pornography, violent video games, violent TV shows, etc. -- for several decades. I'm not an expert, but I'm not wholly uninformed, either.

Will the publication of stories at Literotica about white women and black bulls reinforce racist attitudes in the real world and cause actual, tangible harm in the real world?

I don't know. I suppose it's possible. Based on everything I know, I doubt that it would cause any harm at all, and if there is a risk of harm it's tiny. And I weigh that against the pleasure people get in getting their rocks off reading the stories. To my way of thinking the scale tips in favor of letting people have their fun and in backing off of moralizing and shaming others so much.

Rapists have existed throughout history, in every society, and they exist in places where erotica of this sort is banned. I see no reason to believe that incest stories at Literotica will cause more incestuous abuse to exist. I see no reason to believe that non-con fantasy stories at Literotica will cause more rape to exist. I see no reason to believe that interracial erotica at Literotica will subject black people in the real world to more oppression.

To me, by this logic, telling racist jokes is okay. Some people find them hilarious. "Lighten up, people. Let other people have their fun. No one was hurt by that joke."

Don't try that at work.

Getting back to your story - if it reinforces white supremacist tropes, then it is something that you as a non-white supremacist shouldn't publish. Saying that it's just a fantasy doesn't excuse reinforcing white supremacist tropes. I'm not saying that you are a white supremacist or that your story does reinforce white supremacist tropes.

 

[MillieDynamite]

I rapist needs nothing to feed his need. Reading about it won't increase or decrease his desire to humiliate and degrade a woman. No matter which kind of rapist you are talking about, they aren't stimulate more by watching a rape, they are by seeing a woman.

Rape fantasies are common with women, not every woman, but a great number of women. But fantasy and reality aren't connected.

Poverty breeds crime, but greatest crimes are committed by greedy individuals who can never have enough.

Sorry about my tangent. Please continue your discussions.

 

[CyranoJ]

I think you illustrate the point about different moral universes perfectly.

And I think when most of your Lit library consists of stories about white dudes exploiting poverty-stricken Filipina bar girls, it's probably a wise idea to ease back on that kink-shaming throttle.

Speaking as someone who writes in both I/R and NC/R: they're both about kinks that come from the darker side of human nature and I do think it's important to approach writing them with eyes wide open and an awareness of what that means, if you're going to do it. It's not necessarily as simple as "oh, it's just fantasy," and being extra-aware of what you do and say both inside and outside the fiction does matter. That applies to interracial or noncon just as it applies to incest or, say, sex tourism. All of these are kinks tied to things that are objectively negative in the real world. It's a good thing to be aware of that.

That said, these kinds of kinks aren't going anywhere. They're part of the human condition, the lived world that we draw erotic inspiration from, warts and all. And I don't want anyone getting it twisted: none of what I've said about interracial in this thread is about kink-shaming or attempting to moralize at people writing in these categories. That interracial kink exploits a racist trope is obvious; that doesn't mean it appeals solely to dyed-in-the-wool supremacists or that getting off to any form of it inherently makes you evil. NC/R kink is much the same, and reducing it to "feed the rapist" is more rhetorical gamesmanship than serious analysis.

 

[jaF0]

I haven't been following this thread and probably won't be back, but this article caught my eye and I thought it might fit:

https://www.npr.org/2021/08/05/1025...g-better-with-race-until-a-recent-award-choic

 

[vastiesmith100]

Please do the world a favor and

go the fuck away. YOu do nothing to help anything. SEEK MENTAL HELP, you really need it.

 

[SimonDoom]

To me, by this logic, telling racist jokes is okay. Some people find them hilarious. "Lighten up, people. Let other people have their fun. No one was hurt by that joke."

Don't try that at work.

Getting back to your story - if it reinforces white supremacist tropes, then it is something that you as a non-white supremacist shouldn't publish. Saying that it's just a fantasy doesn't excuse reinforcing white supremacist tropes. I'm not saying that you are a white supremacist or that your story does reinforce white supremacist tropes.

It's not at all like telling racist jokes. I don't tell racist jokes.

First, Literotica is not the workplace. There are many things that get told at Literotica that most of us, yourself included, I'm guessing, would not tell in the workplace.

This is, as I see it, a unique sort of fantasy space where people give free rein to their fantasies. There are not many places in our lives where we can, or should, do that. We're all anonymous. I've said I'm a white guy, but for all you know I could be a young black gay woman. We're not in a position to judge one another because we don't really know anything about one another. There's no analogy between Literotica and the workplace. The implications and consequences of what gets said are completely different.

Second, I think the racial implications/politics/morality of interracial stories are much more complicated than racist jokes. There are plenty of black men who enjoy stories where black men dominate white women, or cuckold their husbands. Are they racist? No. Are the women who fantasize about black men racist? I don't think so. Maybe some are, but you can't make assumptions. I think this is very complicated. I think it's legitimate for stories to explore the weird, complicated aspects of people's fantasy lives, even if they are troubling.

Third, I'm not sure I even agree with the notion that these stories "reinforce white supremacist tropes." I'm not at all sure they reinforce anything at all. I'm not sure they have any consequence of any kind. This isn't at all like racist jokes being told next to the water cooler in the office. This is a weird, unique fantasy space and I question whether stories told in this space have any consequence at all in the real world.

It's a discussion worth having, and I've admitted I have many mixed feelings about these stories, as I do about certain other kinds of stories. But my story hasn't even been written. I don't think it can be judged, yet. If it sucks, it sucks, but it won't suck until it's written.

 

[KeithD]

go the fuck away. YOu do nothing to help anything. SEEK MENTAL HELP, you really need it.

Just out of curiosity, who was this post addressed to?

 

[lovecraft68]

Every trope in erotica about race plays to racism.

Loving wives, the wife is an extra dirty whore for sleeping with a black man
The black bull is most often betrayed as a thug trash talking asshat demeaning the husband and at times the woman as well.

If interracial is a thrill to you in the visual sense of two contrasting skin tones(the reason I like it regardless of the "mix") that's one thing, but more often than not, and especially with black involved its the "taboo"

we no longer live in 1950 if you as the author or reader still feel its taboo(definition something society frowns upon) then that's racism.

if black women as dominatrix-common trope- its perceived as an extra bit of degradation for the man that the woman topping him is black...why? Let's bring out the R word again.

Now, do I think people who write this stuff are racists? No, not anymore than I think non con authors all want to rape someone or incest authors want to have sex with family.

But what I get a kick out of is we certainly have some "woke" folks in this forum who have a lot to say about the racists in LW comment sections and acting like said racists are all from the opposite side of the political fence, or incels, oh, wait they're on the same side.

but yet those crusaders for racial equality will-for the sake of views and comments-write the most racist tropes which in turn baits the racist comments...but only the commenters are racist somehow.

When your character is black or Asian or Hispanic and aside from that they're a character without the ethnicity constantly being played up, then you have it right, if you're using the ethnicity as a kink, you're falling in line with that word you all like to use so much when it comes to pointing fingers at others.

Or are you? Nobody cared about this a few years ago until the media told you all to.

 

[Bramblethorn]

This is, as I see it, a unique sort of fantasy space where people give free rein to their fantasies. There are not many places in our lives where we can, or should, do that. We're all anonymous. I've said I'm a white guy, but for all you know I could be a young black gay woman.

If you are, I will personally nominate you for an Oscar for your courageous and committed performance of an older white guy somewhere between 0 and 1 on the Kinsey scale.

I don't mean this as an insult, but your posts have some of the strongest Straight White Dude energy I've ever encountered.

Third, I'm not sure I even agree with the notion that these stories "reinforce white supremacist tropes." I'm not at all sure they reinforce anything at all. I'm not sure they have any consequence of any kind. This isn't at all like racist jokes being told next to the water cooler in the office. This is a weird, unique fantasy space and I question whether stories told in this space have any consequence at all in the real world.

I've been told by a couple of readers that my "Red Scarf" series got them considering whether they could be autistic. (I can testify that that is a life-changing revelation.) Another author of my acquaintance was recently told by a reader that her story had been a major influence in motivating them to transition.

Unless our readers are lying to us, it seems pretty clear that, yes, stories can have real-life consequences. If I choose to believe the ones who tell me that my stories have been an influence for the better in their lives, how can I not believe that it's also possible to influence them for the worse?

 

[Bramblethorn]

I haven't been following this thread and probably won't be back, but this article caught my eye and I thought it might fit:

https://www.npr.org/2021/08/05/1025...g-better-with-race-until-a-recent-award-choic

I've been watching that fiasco unfold. If anything, the NPR article is being kind to RWA there.

Creating a "Romance with Religious or Spiritual Elements" award category which is ostensibly open to any religion, but defined in I Can't Believe It's Not Evangelical Jesus terms, is peak RWA.

 

[XerXesXu]

This is a complicated question.

For starters, I object to the phrase "feed the rapist" as being argumentative, vague and ambiguous, and assuming facts not in evidence.

My general view (general -- not absolute)

“This is a complicated question.”

Why?

“For starters, I object to the phrase "feed the rapist" as being argumentative, vague and ambiguous, and assuming facts not in evidence.”

Over-ruled. You can choose your own words, you can’t choose mine. (I enjoyed Perry Mason every bit as much as you did, but it was fantasy.)

“My general view (general -- not absolute) “ is ‘Yes.'

That would have been a clear, confident answer. What am I supposed to infer from the fact that you felt the need to bury such a simple answer under a huge pile of caveats and qualifications?

 

[MillieDynamite]

if black women as dominatrix-common trope- its perceived as an extra bit of degradation for the man that the woman topping him is black...why? Let's bring out the R word again.

I'm not sure what you are saying in this post, so asking for a bit of clarification on this statement to beginning with this line.

Are you saying that black women can't be Dominatrix's in writing without being racist. I'm reading that, they must be submissive with pleasant personalities. In other words, they aren't allowed to be aggressive, they aren't allowed to be a powerful CEO, a skilled government assassins, or a woman who is deemed as unpleasant to be around.

If your goal is for inclusion, this doesn't work. Black people fill the entire gambit of personalities. Why do you insist on limiting them from anything you find racist. You make it sound as if only white people can be the bad guy in your stories along with, that's how it should be for everyone or else they are racist and promoting white supremacy.

Please tell me I'm misunderstanding your post.

 

[MillieDynamite]

go the fuck away. YOu do nothing to help anything. SEEK MENTAL HELP, you really need it.

Just out of curiosity, who was this post addressed to?

I was wondering the same thing.

 

[CyranoJ]

Please tell me I'm misunderstanding your post.

Hmmm, did the individual in question produce a completely incoherent and nonsensical post on the topic of race? Must be a day ending in "y."

Lemme guess. The whole topic of anti-racism and discussions about race is just a trendy fake meme that the media concocted in the last few years (which just happen to have been the Trump years) to distract us all from The Real Issues. I stand ready to be amazed if this guess at the overall content is mistaken.