AwkwardMD and Omenainen Review Thread

[HollyLoriAnnalee]

I could write a sequel where an obsessed, indecisive Colleen goes back in time in a time machine over and over trying to make all the changes people have suggested. It would be like the Charlie Kaufman version of erotic fiction.

 

[SimonDoom]

I could write a sequel where an obsessed, indecisive Colleen goes back in time in a time machine over and over trying to make all the changes people have suggested. It would be like the Charlie Kaufman version of erotic fiction.

The idea of an erotic story based on time travel or going back to redo an incident is actually very interesting. But I'd recommend moving forward and writing a completely new story based on the idea -- you'll be less limited. Maybe a Groundhog day concept.

 

[MelissaBaby]

The idea of an erotic story based on time travel or going back to redo an incident is actually very interesting. But I'd recommend moving forward and writing a completely new story based on the idea -- you'll be less limited. Maybe a Groundhog day concept.

I'd go humorous with it.

Guy falls for a girl, they date, when they go to make love for the first time, he's too quick on the trigger and she is disappointed. He is too humiliated to ever ask her out again.

Years later, by some sort of time travel, he decides to try again, but every time they make love....oops...try again.

 

[NotWise]

I'd go humorous with it.

Guy falls for a girl, they date, when they go to make love for the first time, he's too quick on the trigger and she is disappointed. He is too humiliated to ever ask her out again.

Years later, by some sort of time travel, he decides to try again, but every time they make love....oops...try again.

He'd eventually learn to go down on her, and then it could end.

 

[MelissaBaby]

He'd eventually learn to go down on her, and then it could end.

Who doesn’t love a happy ending?

 

[JuanSeiszFitzHall]

I'd go humorous with it.

Guy falls for a girl, they date, when they go to make love for the first time, he's too quick on the trigger and she is disappointed. He is too humiliated to ever ask her out again.

Years later, by some sort of time travel, he decides to try again, but every time they make love....oops...try again.

Title: "Fifty Last Dates."

 

[AwkwardMD]

Title: "Fifty Last Dates."

That is the best title I've seen or heard for a story in a long, long time

 

[BelleCanzuto]

Title: "Fifty Last Dates."

FTW, indeed.

 

[NotWise]

Maybe we need a good short description. I'm thinkin' Romance.

Attraction, desire and denial. Attraction, desire and denial.

[repetition is intentional]

 

[BelleCanzuto]

750 word story

Hi AMD-
Would you do a critique of a 750 word story, or is that not enough to work with?
I keep thinking about one of the three I did this year, and think I'd like a review.
Let me know, and I'll post the link, if you're interested.
Thx

 

[AwkwardMD]

Of course! Link away

 

[BelleCanzuto]

Of course! Link away

Thanks!

This is the one I'm the most interested in: The End of the Affair

But, if you'd like, look over this one too; I was expecting more comments about the ending than I got: Interstate Love Song

Thanks!

 

[AlexBailey]

We should seek to reach a point where we do not care what a person's race is, do not even notice...

Ironically enough, this position is almost exclusively advocated by white people.

I found the discussion on authorial endorsement very eyeopening. It may be the PC culture I live in here in California... It seems that race is being left out of many conversations and writings, unless it's something written to specifically make a point about race. I've been writing my storys in a fashion that is mostly race blind, but now it seems that it may come across as whitewashing.

Somewhere AMD said something about how writing in settings which would normally have multi-ethnic populations without mentioning race, presents a position that the author is blind to race. (Sorry AMD, if I've misconstrued anything, I can't find the actual comment at the moment.)

This thought has been rattling around in my head for a while now. I've been writing about Southern California high-school seniors where there would naturally be a lot of racial diversity. In my mind's eye, there was a lot of diversity but when I looked at what I had written, aside from a handful of characters, most of it comes across as pretty whitewashed -- definitely not how I pictured nor intended it.

My perspective is definitely a product of the culture I live in. My wife works in public services with the homeless community. Her organization has made great efforts to be inclusive of all races and colors of the rainbow, but the cost seems to be a lack of differentiation, rather than inclusiveness. I've often listened to her describing individuals, while jumping through hoops to not use race, skin color, or even gender when it is unknown how someone identifies.

It's one thing to avoid labeling someone by how they appear, it's another thing to try to describe them without using anything that could be construed as racist or sexist. In my stories I have found myself avoiding racial descriptions but it has come at the cost of seeming blind to the differences.

I find myself almost going full-circle, using descriptions that begin to sound like racial stereotypes to differentiate characters without coming straight out and listing their genealogy. Names can imply race to some degree, but using names can also seem racially charged to assume the race of someone named 'Rohit', 'Keesha', or 'Eduardo'. Relying on names requires the use of ethnically specific names, which can again quickly start to feel stereotypical and racist.

I wrote about a peripheral character named 'Michelle,' who in my mind is African-American. I just read back to my references of her and realized that there are zero clues which would make the reader think she is anything other than another white kid, most of the clues that easily come to mind could be considered racist. I'm sure I'll come up with something...

Any suggestions or clever strategies?

I'm not sure how I'll handle this yet, but thanks for the thoughts. I'll keep this in mind as I move forward. I'm sure it will influence my further writings.

 

[yibala2]

I found the discussion on authorial endorsement very eyeopening. It may be the PC culture I live in here in California... It seems that race is being left out of many conversations and writings, unless it's something written to specifically make a point about race. I've been writing my storys in a fashion that is mostly race blind, but now it seems that it may come across as whitewashing.

Just lurking on this discussion. I've been reading through some of your T-girl story. I don't think you whitewash. I can clearly see characters who are both white and nonwhite, and cultural distinctions. IMO, the fact that you are concerned about it and write characters in multi-racial environments that you imagine are nonwhite is a good sign. And it's also good that you went back and looked for cues.

I write fantasy stories in which virtually all of the characters are in the vast range of skin colors that we would refer to as Black. But I don't spend a lot of time describing various complexions, body shapes, hair, or facial structures. Just a few cues here and there should be enough to set the context you intend, and let the reader use their imagination for the rest.

Perhaps a lot of this is stylistic too. If a writer's style isn't particularly descriptive as to physical traits, and the characters actually could be of various races and ethnicities, then there doesn't seem to be anything wrong with that either.

Just my two pennies.

-Yib

 

[AwkwardMD]

I found the discussion on authorial endorsement very eyeopening. It may be the PC culture I live in here in California... It seems that race is being left out of many conversations and writings, unless it's something written to specifically make a point about race. I've been writing my storys in a fashion that is mostly race blind, but now it seems that it may come across as whitewashing.

Somewhere AMD said something about how writing in settings which would normally have multi-ethnic populations without mentioning race, presents a position that the author is blind to race. (Sorry AMD, if I've misconstrued anything, I can't find the actual comment at the moment.)

This thought has been rattling around in my head for a while now. I've been writing about Southern California high-school seniors where there would naturally be a lot of racial diversity. In my mind's eye, there was a lot of diversity but when I looked at what I had written, aside from a handful of characters, most of it comes across as pretty whitewashed -- definitely not how I pictured nor intended it.

My perspective is definitely a product of the culture I live in. My wife works in public services with the homeless community. Her organization has made great efforts to be inclusive of all races and colors of the rainbow, but the cost seems to be a lack of differentiation, rather than inclusiveness. I've often listened to her describing individuals, while jumping through hoops to not use race, skin color, or even gender when it is unknown how someone identifies.

It's one thing to avoid labeling someone by how they appear, it's another thing to try to describe them without using anything that could be construed as racist or sexist. In my stories I have found myself avoiding racial descriptions but it has come at the cost of seeming blind to the differences.

I find myself almost going full-circle, using descriptions that begin to sound like racial stereotypes to differentiate characters without coming straight out and listing their genealogy. Names can imply race to some degree, but using names can also seem racially charged to assume the race of someone named 'Rohit', 'Keesha', or 'Eduardo'. Relying on names requires the use of ethnically specific names, which can again quickly start to feel stereotypical and racist.

I wrote about a peripheral character named 'Michelle,' who in my mind is African-American. I just read back to my references of her and realized that there are zero clues which would make the reader think she is anything other than another white kid, most of the clues that easily come to mind could be considered racist. I'm sure I'll come up with something...

Any suggestions or clever strategies?

I'm not sure how I'll handle this yet, but thanks for the thoughts. I'll keep this in mind as I move forward. I'm sure it will influence my further writings.

Thank you for thinking about this. It's a tough thing to consider how to be inclusive in a medium where you literally only have your words. Visual mediums (TV and movies) don't even need to try to achieve baseline inclusiveness (which makes that failure (when it happens) even more glaring). We authors only have our words,and it can feel like we're constantly finding that words we might have used are 'problematic' now. It can be discouraging.

Trying anyway, and being creative, is beautiful.

Names are a good one. Basic character descriptions, for characters that aren't your main two, are sometimes things we erotica writers never consider doing, like the love interest's looks are the only ones that matter.

A lot of my stories are only ever two characters interacting in a vacuum. Those aren't good opportunities to have secondary characters showing diversity. I have to make it a priority to diversify my main character cast. I could maybe do a better job of it, but I accept that it's something I am working on, and I try to keep it front of mind.

 

[AlexBailey]

Just lurking on this discussion. I've been reading through some of your T-girl story. I don't think you whitewash. I can clearly see characters who are both white and nonwhite, and cultural distinctions. IMO, the fact that you are concerned about it and write characters in multi-racial environments that you imagine are nonwhite is a good sign. And it's also good that you went back and looked for cues.

-Yib

Thanks for your feedback.

I do have characters who are specifically Hawaiian, and one who is Hawaiian / African-American, but all of these were specifically intentional. It's the extraneous characters that I hadn't specified before, all of whom came across as white.

Little things pop into my head as I'm writing, like the fact that the girl who wears and does all of the braids on the other girl happens to be mixed race. On the one hand, it avoids cultural appropriation for those who feel braids are a black thing, on the other hand it helps push a stereotype.


Another challenge I have is dialogue. I've spent enough time in Hawai'i that I have picked up on how many locals speak, not just surfer slang. It is a balancing act to try use enough dialect to feel authentic but not too much. I've found other forum discussions where authors say they would never write something like the slave dialogue from Tom Sawyer or Huckleberry Finn. Regardless of how historically or culturally accurate it may be, it can come across as insensitive and racist now.

I had a scene where three misogynist bullies were picking on the main character. I didn't have any misgivings about portraying the bullies as ignorant assholes until I tried to write one of them as black. It kept standing out badly if I made any specifically racial reference.


Other odd thoughts:

Is it okay to keep all of the 'bad guys' white? I've got three young-adult sons, the oldest of which went through a period where he was espousing alt-right propaganda. Part of it was railing against affirmative action, saying that it is a form of racism against white males.... -sigh- His perspectives have changed now and he whole heartedly supports racial and gender equality, but was it was interesting to hear those perspectives pushed so hard and the 'rationale' behind it. God forbid they lose any of their male white privelage... Still, I understand the full-circle aspect of this. I spent several years as a boyfriend of a lesbian, within a lesbian community. I often felt marginalized by feminists who singled me out because of my gender and race. I understood the culture and trauma where it was coming from, but I still felt judged because of how I was born, not who I am, yet I still have a bias within myself to portray the bad guys as white males. Affirmative action? Lol. I really hope I do not create any backlash.

 

[yibala2]

Thanks for your feedback.

Another challenge I have is dialogue. I've spent enough time in Hawai'i that I have picked up on how many locals speak, not just surfer slang. It is a balancing act to try use enough dialect to feel authentic but not too much. I've found other forum discussions where authors say they would never write something like the slave dialogue from Tom Sawyer or Huckleberry Finn. Regardless of how historically or culturally accurate it may be, it can come across as insensitive and racist now.

I had a scene where three misogynist bullies were picking on the main character. I didn't have any misgivings about portraying the bullies as ignorant assholes until I tried to write one of them as black. It kept standing out badly if I made any specifically racial reference.


Other odd thoughts:

Is it okay to keep all of the 'bad guys' white? I've got three young-adult sons, the oldest of which went through a period where he was espousing alt-right propaganda. Part of it was railing against affirmative action, saying that it is a form of racism against white males.... -sigh- His perspectives have changed now and he whole heartedly supports racial and gender equality, but was it was interesting to hear those perspectives pushed so hard and the 'rationale' behind it. God forbid they lose any of their male white privelage... Still, I understand the full-circle aspect of this. I spent several years as a boyfriend of a lesbian, within a lesbian community. I often felt marginalized by feminists who singled me out because of my gender and race. I understood the culture and trauma where it was coming from, but I still felt judged because of how I was born, not who I am, yet I still have a bias within myself to portray the bad guys as white males. Affirmative action? Lol. I really hope I do not create any backlash.

I wrote a historical fantasy several years ago about a girl who was a slave on a small East Texas ranch in 1848. There were several other slaves on the ranch, including a father-figure type who was born in Africa.

At first, I tried to approximate Texas slave narrative speech, especially for the other characters (the main character was close to the owner's daughter, and so did a lot of code-switching). But after work-shopping with several other writers and revision, and going over it with a professional editor, I gradually changed the speech patterns until they were much closer to some of the white characters - which also makes sense, since the blacks and whites on a little ranch interacted much more than they would have on a large plantation.

That dialect will come across as insensitive and racist to many readers. Moreover, it takes more effort to comprehend, and you don't want your reader to have to struggle just for the sake of authenticity. As you say, there's a balance. Like with character description, a few cues is enough. With modern dialect, you can get it across with just a phrase or two that a particular character likes to use.

I would try diversifying your villains. You probably will get some backlash, but most likely from those without the self-awareness to empathize with different sides.

-Yib

 

[MelissaBaby]

I found the discussion on authorial endorsement very eyeopening. It may be the PC culture I live in here in California... It seems that race is being left out of many conversations and writings, unless it's something written to specifically make a point about race. I've been writing my storys in a fashion that is mostly race blind, but now it seems that it may come across as whitewashing.

Somewhere AMD said something about how writing in settings which would normally have multi-ethnic populations without mentioning race, presents a position that the author is blind to race. (Sorry AMD, if I've misconstrued anything, I can't find the actual comment at the moment.)

This thought has been rattling around in my head for a while now. I've been writing about Southern California high-school seniors where there would naturally be a lot of racial diversity. In my mind's eye, there was a lot of diversity but when I looked at what I had written, aside from a handful of characters, most of it comes across as pretty whitewashed -- definitely not how I pictured nor intended it.

My perspective is definitely a product of the culture I live in. My wife works in public services with the homeless community. Her organization has made great efforts to be inclusive of all races and colors of the rainbow, but the cost seems to be a lack of differentiation, rather than inclusiveness. I've often listened to her describing individuals, while jumping through hoops to not use race, skin color, or even gender when it is unknown how someone identifies.

It's one thing to avoid labeling someone by how they appear, it's another thing to try to describe them without using anything that could be construed as racist or sexist. In my stories I have found myself avoiding racial descriptions but it has come at the cost of seeming blind to the differences.

I find myself almost going full-circle, using descriptions that begin to sound like racial stereotypes to differentiate characters without coming straight out and listing their genealogy. Names can imply race to some degree, but using names can also seem racially charged to assume the race of someone named 'Rohit', 'Keesha', or 'Eduardo'. Relying on names requires the use of ethnically specific names, which can again quickly start to feel stereotypical and racist.

I wrote about a peripheral character named 'Michelle,' who in my mind is African-American. I just read back to my references of her and realized that there are zero clues which would make the reader think she is anything other than another white kid, most of the clues that easily come to mind could be considered racist. I'm sure I'll come up with something...

Any suggestions or clever strategies?

I'm not sure how I'll handle this yet, but thanks for the thoughts. I'll keep this in mind as I move forward. I'm sure it will influence my further writings.

I wrote a long series that begins in the present day and takes place over the course of about sixty years. I decided to use the "Mayberry effect" and mostly keep the world of the story unchanging in the details of every day life. But one thing I did do was gradually reflect changing demographics.

The series takes place in a small town in Maine. In early chapters, the characters nearly all have English or French surnames. Over time, I used a greater variety of ethnicity in naming peripheral characters. I named the sheriff Ramirez, and a nurse at the hospital Chau, for example. I'd tread much more carefully if I was using those names for more sinister characters.

I did write in a family of Somali refugees. What I did not do is speak for them by making them POV characters. (By the way, when I had the white daughter of the main characters and the son of the Somali family fall in love, I got severely 1 bombed)

 

[Bramblethorn]

I wrote about a peripheral character named 'Michelle,' who in my mind is African-American. I just read back to my references of her and realized that there are zero clues which would make the reader think she is anything other than another white kid, most of the clues that easily come to mind could be considered racist. I'm sure I'll come up with something...

Any suggestions or clever strategies?

This is me rambling in the general neighbourhood of your question, not a direct and structured answer:

A couple of months back, my partner and I watched MIB: International. In the opening scene, set in NY, a Black couple notice something mysterious going on at night (there's an alien in their neighbourhood) and their immediate response is to call the police. When the "cops" appear, they're relieved and immediately go open the door.

I was happy to suspend my disbelief for aliens and ray-guns and dimensional portraits, but that scene, with a Black couple who assume the cops are on their side, broke me out of the story for reasons that should be obvious to anybody who watches the news. My best guess is that the family was originally written as White, but they ended up casting a Black family without thinking about how that changes the chemistry of the scene.

What I'm getting at here is, if you want to include non-White characters in stories (which I heartily endorse), don't just write White people and then add dark skin/curly hair/etc. Think about how race influences their interactions with the world. That doesn't mean throwing in a bunch of stereotypes, but it does mean letting their race affect the story.

Some stories can work either way. "Night of the Living Dead" was written without a Black character in mind for the star role, but Duane Jones gave the best audition and Romero cast him. It's a bit of serendipity that works well in that movie; as well as Jones being a fine actor, his character's race changes the vibe of some key scenes in a memorable way, even though nothing in the script references it.

AMD's The Favor features a character who is by my reading intended as Black, married to a White guy. The coding of her race is done subtly enough that she could be read just as a White woman with a tan, and the story would still work under that reading, but again it subtly changes the dynamics involved in how she and her husband relate. Taken along with other story elements, it suggests that he sees himself as having improved her social situation by marrying her, just a hint of a dynamic between them that plays into the unhappiness of their relationship.

It doesn't always have to be complex. Especially with minor characters, sometimes it is just a name. In one of my scenes a minor character mentions that he's leaving work because "Prija has accepted a senior lecturer position at Chulakongkorn" and that's just about the only information given about his wife. But for bigger characters, race shouldn't just be about reskinning a generic White character.

(And on the other side of the coin, don't make a character's race all that they are; if every trait is written as a racial signifier, that does risk writing them as stereotype. Perhaps ask yourself what aspects of this character are shaped by race-related experiences, and what aspects are not.)

Getting back to your original question, it may not be necessary to flag a character's race every time. But if your characters are halfway representative of modern society, there should be some cases where it's possible to do it smoothly, and once you've established that not everybody is White, readers may be less likely to make that assumption about the less detailed characters.

 

[SimonDoom]

I was happy to suspend my disbelief foraliens and ray-guns and dimensional portraits, but that scene, with a Black couple who assume the cops are on their side, broke me out of the story for reasons that should be obvious to anybody who watches the news. My best guess is that the family was originally written as White, but they ended up casting a Black family without thinking about how that changes the chemistry of the scene.

.

Or perhaps they did. SOME black people in America react the way that family reacted. There are many black police officers. There are black conservatives. That is part of the reality of a complex society. The movie makers may have consciously made this choice knowing that it would in part conflict with and perhaps mess with people's expectations.

I know people who made this objection to the Cosby show in the 1980s -- that it made the family too happy, too untroubled by issues that confronted many black people -- that they were too white. But there's a possible beneficial sort of consciousness- raising that comes with violating what we believe are majority expectations. There's good that comes from knowing that "normal" is a bigger and more varied universe than many of us think it is.

I suspect that moviemakers today are fairly conscious of this sort of thing, and that they do make these choices knowing that they may contravene expectations, and that's part of the point.

 

[NotWise]

Or perhaps they did. SOME black people in America react the way that family reacted. There are many black police officers. There are black conservatives. That is part of the reality of a complex society. The movie makers may have consciously made this choice knowing that it would in part conflict with and perhaps mess with people's expectations.

I endorse Simon's statement. The African American community in the US is diverse. They do not share common politics. They do not share a common religion. They don't share common experiences or family histories. They don't even share a common skin color or facial features.

 

[AlexBailey]

I endorse Simon's statement. The African American community in the US is diverse. They do not share common politics. They do not share a common religion. They don't share common experiences or family histories. They don't even share a common skin color or facial features.

The Fresh Prince of Bel Aire?

 

[NotWise]

The Fresh Prince of Bel Aire?

I remember the TV show, but I don't get your reference.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Or perhaps they did. SOME black people in America react the way that family reacted. There are many black police officers. There are black conservatives. That is part of the reality of a complex society. The movie makers may have consciously made this choice knowing that it would in part conflict with and perhaps mess with people's expectations.

I've seen the film. It was just bad writing.

Yesterday I read a story about an atheist transgender woman (who describes herself as "a Satanist she-male") who is running for Sheriff in New Hampshire, on the platform "f*** the police"... as the Republican candidate.

If you were reading that story, I daresay one of the first questions you'd expect it to answer was "why is somebody from those demographics running as the Republican?" followed by "how did she get the nomination?", followed perhaps by "and why is she using what would normally be considered an anti-trans slur to describe herself?" Certainly those first two were a major focus of the coverage I read.

So it is here. In a world of seven billion people, just about anything is possible, but some things are still unusual enough to be noteworthy. If you present them without showing any understanding that those traits are unusual, and probably relevant to understanding what's going on, expect readers to think you just don't get it.

In my current story, I'm writing a lesbian woman whose longest relationship has been with a guy. That happens - similar things have happened in my own life. But it's something that invites a bit of exploration, and it has implications that probably ought to be addressed.

I know people who made this objection to the Cosby show in the 1980s -- that it made the family too happy, too untroubled by issues that confronted many black people -- that they were too white. But there's a possible beneficial sort of consciousness- raising that comes with violating what we believe are majority expectations. There's good that comes from knowing that "normal" is a bigger and more varied universe than many of us think it is.

Importantly, many of the people who made that objection were Black, so I tend to give their criticisms some weight.

Those criticisms were not merely that Cosby's own family was presented as whitebread and untroubled, but that Cosby set this image up in opposition to other Black people, blaming their troubles on their own behaviour - essentially "you wouldn't have problems with the cops if you just acted White and non-threatening, like I do".

If you were telling Cosby's life story, this conflict between his race and his politics would be a huge part of it, not least because it played a major part in his downfall. Accusing a Black man of rape, especially of a White woman, is something with horrendous political baggage. It's not something that other Black people would do lightly. But Cosby's hypocrisy - setting himself up as Mr. Wholesome, claiming moral superiority over other Black people who swore and listened to rap music - was the final straw for some people. In particular, for Hannibal Buress:

"Bill Cosby has the fuckin’ smuggest old black man public persona that I hate. He gets on TV, ‘Pull your pants up black people, I was on TV in the ‘80s! I can talk down to you because I had a successful sitcom!’ Yeah, but you rape women, Bill Cosby, so turn the crazy down a couple notches."

That show went viral, the publicity brought out many of Cosby's other victims who'd been keeping quiet, and the end result was disgrace, prosecution, and jail.

So, yeah, a Black person certainly can be conservative. But it's something that has significant implications, and putting it in a story without engaging with those implications is a very peculiar choice that's more likely to be taken for laziness than some sort of galaxy-brain exercise in challenging expectations.

I suspect that moviemakers today are fairly conscious of this sort of thing, and that they do make these choices knowing that they may contravene expectations, and that's part of the point.

Sometimes it's done deliberately, sometimes to good effect. Blazing Saddles gets a lot of mileage out of a black sheriff. But I saw nothing in MIB International to suggest that that was the case here.

Looking at Wiki, apparently the production was so chaotic that two of the actors ended up hiring their own dialogue writers, which is not a thing I've ever heard of happening in a film before.

 

[AlexBailey]

I remember the TV show, but I don't get your reference.

Will Smith,

* agent Jay in Men in black
* The Fresh Prince of Bell Aire