What went wrong with this one?

[gunhilltrain]

It's been a long time since I've posted anything in Story Feedback. I used to do it a lot when I first got here because, well, I was insecure.

I didn't think the following would be wildly popular, but I didn't expect the almost complete indifference it received. It's a short "fill-in" chapter which is supposed to show how this young couple interacts when they're not in bed. (The first two chapters did pretty well.)

https://literotica.com/s/bronx-park-east-ch-03

I didn't actually have a girlfriend at that time, but almost everything else about the party really happened. The names have been changed, but the people there are based on people I knew. The description of the house and its location, and the description of the demolition of the Third Avenue el are real too.

The ending where he meets his girlfriend's best friend is fictional. It seemed better to stick it at the end of this chapter instead of the beginning of the next one.

I was going to put this in Non-erotic, but it seemed to plausibly belong in Romance. The two people have known each other for less than a month, but I wanted show how their relationship is developing. I also wanted to provide some context about what it was like to live in that time.

P.S.: The conversation about transit issues is based on my own now ex-wife, who I met the following year. She was knowledgeable about such things. (Beyond that, she had no resemblance to the girl in the story.) She eventually became a lawyer specializing in land use, zoning and real estate, which seemed to suit her interests.

 

[NotWise]

It's been a long time since I've posted anything in Story Feedback. I used to do it a lot when I first got here because, well, I was insecure.

I didn't think the following would be wildly popular, but I didn't expect the almost complete indifference it received. It's a short "fill-in" chapter which is supposed to show how this young couple interacts when they're not in bed. (The first two chapters did pretty well.)

https://literotica.com/s/bronx-park-east-ch-03

I didn't actually have a girlfriend at that time, but almost everything else about the party really happened. The names have been changed, but the people there are based on people I knew. The description of the house and its location, and the description of the demolition of the Third Avenue el are real too.

The ending where he meets his girlfriend's best friend is fictional. It seemed better to stick it at the end of this chapter instead of the beginning of the next one.

I was going to put this in Non-erotic, but it seemed to plausibly belong in Romance. The two people have known each other for less than a month, but I wanted show how their relationship is developing. I also wanted to provide some context about what it was like to live in that time.

P.S.: The conversation about transit issues is based on my own now ex-wife, who I met the following year. She was knowledgeable about such things. (Beyond that, she had no resemblance to the girl in the story.) She eventually became a lawyer specializing in land use, zoning and real estate, which seemed to suit her interests.

I think this is the third time I've read one of your stories. You're a good writer, but I'm not sure who you're writing for. From your questions, I expect that you're writing for yourself. Does it make a difference what other readers think?

Maybe there's nothing wrong with this story except that it's very short, it's not erotic, there's no evident build to a larger story, and it very tied to a time and location that few of us share with you.

In terms of presentation, the short description, "A boozy 1970's college party" may not get you a lot of new reads. Being chapter three of a story won't get you many new reads, and you shifted this series from Romance to First Time and back to Romance. I don't know how many people you can expect to follow you while you bounce back and forth.

Keep writing. You're good at it. If you want more attention then you might need to write for a different audience.

 

[gunhilltrain]

I think this is the third time I've read one of your stories. You're a good writer, but I'm not sure who you're writing for. From your questions, I expect that you're writing for yourself. Does it make a difference what other readers think?

Maybe there's nothing wrong with this story except that it's very short, it's not erotic, there's no evident build to a larger story, and it very tied to a time and location that few of us share with you.

In terms of presentation, the short description, "A boozy 1970's college party" may not get you a lot of new reads. Being chapter three of a story won't get you many new reads, and you shifted this series from Romance to First Time and back to Romance. I don't know how many people you can expect to follow you while you bounce back and forth.

Keep writing. You're good at it. If you want more attention then you might need to write for a different audience.

Thank you for your input and your kind words. Yes, I am writing for myself, but generally I've gotten a pretty decent reception. Yeah, I wrote a series about Valerie Solanas that really died - but that wasn't a surprise. I liked it anyway.

This wasn't supposed to be erotic at all. I guess it didn't build on story plot either; I don't think those people (except for Bernice at the end) will show up later on. It's mostly about characterization perhaps.

As for time and place - well if you read Orhan Pamuk (I haven't yet), you've got to go with him to Istanbul, or not go at all. (I'm sure he's a better writer than I am.) That is true for for many other authors. To me, it seems more plausible to go for a specific time and place rather than a generic "anywhere" in America.

As for bouncing around categories in a series or in sequels: I've had to deal with that since I started here. Often consistency is impossible.

Anyway, we've often talked on this forum about having the audience come to you rather than chasing after them. I'm fine with that.

 

[ElectricBlue]

I reckon what's happened here is that your View counts for the first two chapterss are misleading, because you've got the curiosity looks from two different reader cohorts - but don't equate that to true reads.

You're writing in a historical niche and about an era that many readers will know nothing about (most won't even have been born) so my guess is that chapter three is closer to actual "I read it" numbers. Your score is a bit savage though, but as NotWise says, you're probably being hit for "no reward."

There's a place for historical fiction and reminiscences (I do it a lot myself), but your content is very era specific, and that's probably limiting interest.

But you can write, there's no doubt about that at all - but your style and approach also has a distancing affect to it, not only the subject matter but your observational point of view. It's almost clinical sometimes, but at the same, written as if observed through a window. It's not particularly close or intimate, but it's not reportage, either.

Overall though, I reckon the issue is more about your readers than it is about any "weakness" of yours.

 

[Enchantment_of_Nyx]

I think the problem is the subject matter, or in a way, the lack of subject matter. It feels a bit like someone hooked you up to a memory projector and picked a random day. It's like a recording more than it is like a story. When I read a story, I usually understand at the end of it what the author wanted me to know, think about, understand, feel, or experience. I didn't know that here. I didn't know why this day was important to you, and I didn't know why it should be important to me.

I don't think the setting was the problem. I was born in the 70s, so of course I have no actual memory of boozy 70s parties. I still have a clear idea what those parties were like because they are such a fixture in movies, tv and literature. It's a period people are still very interested in. I think it could have been a fine stage for a story, but it felt like nothing really happened on the stage.

I would suggest thinking about the details you include. I generally like a lot of detail, probably more than many people prefer, but I do think details need to be there for a reason. Sometimes the reason is to convey the mood. In this story, I didn't feel like they did that. They all seemed to go nowhere. Why is he telling me that he had soup? Why is he telling me about Warren's vomit on the neighbor's window? Why does he want me to know that Lenore had been to New York in April of 1973, and why does it seem to be a mystery?

The largest section of dialog in the story is the discussion of the construction of public transit. I got the impression that it was included to make sure the reader knew that Lenore had an interest in the subject. What I didn't understand was why Lenore's interest in the subject was important or what role it played in the story.

There's one sentence that I think is representative of the story: "A couple of incidents happened that night." That's exactly how it feels. It's like a highly detailed record. Some incidents happened. Nothing changed for the characters.

Maybe next time, think of it as a story you might tell someone out loud. You probably wouldn't pick a relatively uneventful day to tell a story about to begin with. But, if there was something you wanted to say about that day, you'd highlight the part that was important.

From my perspective, the problem was not in the mechanics of the writing, but in the storytelling.

 

[gunhilltrain]

I reckon what's happened here is that your View counts for the first two chapterss are misleading, because you've got the curiosity looks from two different reader cohorts - but don't equate that to true reads.

You're writing in a historical niche and about an era that many readers will know nothing about (most won't even have been born) so my guess is that chapter three is closer to actual "I read it" numbers. Your score is a bit savage though, but as NotWise says, you're probably being hit for "no reward."

There's a place for historical fiction and reminiscences (I do it a lot myself), but your content is very era specific, and that's probably limiting interest.

But you can write, there's no doubt about that at all - but your style and approach also has a distancing affect to it, not only the subject matter but your observational point of view. It's almost clinical sometimes, but at the same, written as if observed through a window. It's not particularly close or intimate, but it's not reportage, either.

Overall though, I reckon the issue is more about your readers than it is about any "weakness" of yours.

Thank you for your response.

Funny, I think of historical fiction as the Civil War or maybe ancient Rome, not New York forty-five years ago. I guess I'm getting a bit old. Anyway, I thought that buses, elevated trains, LSD and so forth are still around and comprehensible to people who weren't actually alive then. It's not like Moby Dick, which gets a little heavy on the whaling techniques.

I'm going to keep doing it because I realize that many of my stories are loosely linked or grouped around the same people - especially the narrator - although there are different timelines.

Back in 2017 I thought of doing a novel that would have had a story arc (I hoped) that would probably go from 1973 to about 1985. That seemed too inflexible and too big of a lift for me, so I went to short stories (some of which were pieces of the novel). I found short stories to be a much better format for me.

Anyway, I accept that some stories will always do better than others, sometimes for obscure reasons.

 

[8letters]

There were a number of little things that irked me as I read.

On the Saturday evening of the party, Lenore had her hair pinned up and she was wearing green shorts. These were short and tight enough to be interesting but not blatant either. We had planned to have a date in the apartment the previous Thursday, but we had cancelled that.

Breaking it down:
On the Saturday evening of the party - As opposed to some other evening of the party? Saturday does nothing here. It's a continuation of a story. Either you should provide us who are jumping in with some background on the party or you should assume we've read chapter 2 and know that the party is on Saturday.

Lenore had her hair pinned up and she was wearing green shorts. Again, I'm jumping into the middle of the story, but what is the significance of this? What was Lenore signalling by pinning her hair up? Did she look good with her hair pinned up or not? Was she not wearing a blouse?

These were short and tight enough to be interesting but not blatant either. "These" threw me off for a moment as I thought "these" was referring to both her pinned up hair and the shorts. It would have been better to have had, "green shorts, which were short and tight enough..."

We had planned to have a date in the apartment the previous Thursday, but we had cancelled that. - What does that have to do with the current action?

Overall, a very weak start. What does the narrator think of Lenore? What is the conflict going on?

It was still light out when we took the Bx12 bus to Webster Avenue and walked north from there. Lenore didn't hold my hand. Sometimes she didn't go for displays of public affection.

At that time, the Third Avenue el, which went along that stretch of Webster, was being demolished. The girders had been removed and two rows of bare pillars went up and down the avenue. It was as strange sight, and I commented on it.

"I rode on this, a number of times."

To me, I commented on it shouldn't be followed by dialogue on the topic. The dialogue is the narrator commenting on it.

She said, "I have too." Really? Where had she been going? I knew then that she had to have been in New York before April, 1973. She had yet to explain any of that.

I said, "It ended at 149th Street in the South Bronx, but it used to go all the way to South Ferry."

The She said and I said does nothing and slows down the dialogue. There's just the two of them so of course Lenore is the one replying to the narrator's comment.

Personally, I don't refer to a female character for the first time in a paragraph as "She". "She" needs an antecedent.

I was surprised that she seemed interested in this topic, "I know; I heard that somewhere."

As a reader, I assume that the dialog without a tag later in a sentence is uttered by the subject of the sentence. It isn't in this case.

"Well, the Second Avenue subway is coming along nicely." At that time it seemed like a sure thing.

She had an opinion, "Maybe they shouldn't have taken down the el until that was done."

She had an opinion? What the hell? Was it surprising that she had an opinion?

If I was writing this, I would have three to five lines of dialogue with only one introductory dialogue tag, a paragraph to explain the importance of what was discussed, and then the rest of the dialogue with only one introductory dialogue tag.

What's missing throughout this first part is any explanation as to the importance of what is happening. How does Lenore's interest in transit issues impact the narrator? How does it effect the current conflict(s)? Without that explanation, they might as well be reading a grocery list.

 

[SimonDoom]

I think you pegged the problem in your description of this chapter in your original post, above. You described it as a "short, fill in chapter."

Who wants to read a "short, fill in chapter"?

Why would you write such a chapter?

By publishing your stories in many very short chapters, some of which have no erotic content, you are swimming upstream at Literotica, regardless of the merit of your writing. You are going to lose readers and some of those who finish the story will disapprove. This doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the quality of the story.

If you are concerned about reader response, my recommendation is to:

1. Think hard about what is the erotic focus of your story -- the story as a whole, and the chapter.
2. Make sure every single chapter serves a purpose toward this erotic focus. Do not ever publish a chapter that you would describe as a "fill-in" chapter.
3. Think about whether and to what degree your chapter is providing readers of the category what they are looking for. Put yourself in their shoes. If you don't deliver, you can't expect anything.

 

[Abbafan]

I think a lot of readers who come to sites like this don't mind some non-erotic moments in their stories, but they want it to build to something like that.

 

[gunhilltrain]

I think the problem is the subject matter, or in a way, the lack of subject matter. It feels a bit like someone hooked you up to a memory projector and picked a random day. It's like a recording more than it is like a story. When I read a story, I usually understand at the end of it what the author wanted me to know, think about, understand, feel, or experience. I didn't know that here. I didn't know why this day was important to you, and I didn't know why it should be important to me.

I don't think the setting was the problem. I was born in the 70s, so of course I have no actual memory of boozy 70s parties. I still have a clear idea what those parties were like because they are such a fixture in movies, tv and literature. It's a period people are still very interested in. I think it could have been a fine stage for a story, but it felt like nothing really happened on the stage.

I would suggest thinking about the details you include. I generally like a lot of detail, probably more than many people prefer, but I do think details need to be there for a reason. Sometimes the reason is to convey the mood. In this story, I didn't feel like they did that. They all seemed to go nowhere. Why is he telling me that he had soup? Why is he telling me about Warren's vomit on the neighbor's window? Why does he want me to know that Lenore had been to New York in April of 1973, and why does it seem to be a mystery?

The largest section of dialog in the story is the discussion of the construction of public transit. I got the impression that it was included to make sure the reader knew that Lenore had an interest in the subject. What I didn't understand was why Lenore's interest in the subject was important or what role it played in the story.

There's one sentence that I think is representative of the story: "A couple of incidents happened that night." That's exactly how it feels. It's like a highly detailed record. Some incidents happened. Nothing changed for the characters.

Maybe next time, think of it as a story you might tell someone out loud. You probably wouldn't pick a relatively uneventful day to tell a story about to begin with. But, if there was something you wanted to say about that day, you'd highlight the part that was important.

From my perspective, the problem was not in the mechanics of the writing, but in the storytelling.

Thank you for your feedback.

I did tell other people about that day later on, but it was so long ago that I've since stopped doing it. Maybe I had a dull life because it seemed like an eventful day to me, compared to just going to college.

It might make sense only if Lenore was going to join the same newspaper with him and meet the same people there. She can't because she is going to another college. That was a perhaps a flaw, introduced in the first chapter. There was a lag of about a year between writing chapter 1 and chapter 2, so I probably lost some coherence in there.

I should have been clearer about the April, 1973 reference. He knows that she has been reluctant to tell him about her past before he met her in July, 1974. That's another thing that probably got lost in the shuffle.

I mentioned above that the transit conversations are based on a real girl (now my ex-wife) who I met in February, 1975. That and her general level of intelligence were among the reasons I was attracted to her. I probably could have made it clearer why that was important to the narrator.

P.S.: I should be careful because I am one of those people (there are more than you might think) who eat up all of that subway/trolley car/railroad stuff. There is an amusing video by Michael Palin (of Monty Python fame) about his experiences and tribulations as a "trainspotter" in Britain. I did have a romance story in that vein that did quite well - it was a Geek Pride Event story of course.

https://www.literotica.com/s/third-avenue-railroad-220

 

[Enchantment_of_Nyx]

Thank you for your feedback.

I did tell other people about that day later on, but it was so long ago that I've since stopped doing it. Maybe I had a dull life because it seemed like an eventful day to me, compared to just going to college.

It might make sense only if Lenore was going to join the same newspaper with him and meet the same people there. She can't because she is going to another college. That was a perhaps a flaw, introduced in the first chapter. There was a lag of about a year between writing chapter 1 and chapter 2, so I probably lost some coherence in there.

I should have been clearer about the April, 1973 reference. He knows that she has been reluctant to tell him about her past before he met her in July, 1974. That's another thing that probably got lost in the shuffle.

I mentioned above that the transit conversations are based on a real girl (now my ex-wife) who I met in February, 1975. That and her general level of intelligence were among the reasons I was attracted to her. I probably could have made it clearer why that was important to the narrator.

P.S.: I should be careful because I am one of those people (there are more than you might think) who eat up all of that subway/trolley car/railroad stuff. There is an amusing video by Michael Palin (of Monty Python fame) about his experiences and tribulations as a "trainspotter" in Britain. I did have a romance story in that vein that did quite well - it was a Geek Pride Event story of course.

https://www.literotica.com/s/third-avenue-railroad-220

I'm familiar with railfans and their train-porn. I don't get it. But, I have a story pending, Madness of the Hunt, that includes a very detailed description you'd probably enjoy of an abandoned industry spur and the old buildings around the stub track, complete with a wood pulp mill elevator. The story will probably go up six days from now, and that bit's about halfway through the story, should you care to indulge your taste for such things.

I think it's possible to make those events meaningful and exciting. What it needs is to show how the events effect the narrator (you). They events need emotional weight and they need significance. If you read through it, I think you'll notice there are no words that convey the excitement, fun, romance, or titillation you felt in response to the events you're describing. Reading it, it's easy to think you were bored.

If the fact that you had soup stuck in your head, what about it was memorable. Let's take that as an example. You wrote:

I was young enough to do what I did; today I wouldn't have the stamina for it. I got home after some considerable amount of time. I heated a can of soup; then I took the subway down to my messenger job in Manhattan. I was very tired but I could still function.

Just the fact that you made soup wasn't terribly interesting, but what if you wrote something like this:

I was young enough to do what I did. Today I wouldn't have the stamina for it. I got home, exhausted and hungry, with only enough time to heat a can of soup before I had to catch the subway to work. My messenger job was all the way in Manhattan. I was very tired, but I could still function.

From this, I would understand the significance of the can of soup of being an illustration of how rushed you were.

OR

I was young enough to do what I did. Today I wouldn't have the stamina for it. I had to rush to catch the subway to my messenger job in Manhattan, but I made time to heat a can of soup. After the aching emptiness in my stomach, the vegetable soup felt like a feast. I was very tired, but I could still function.

From this, I would understand that the significance of the soup as a demonstration of how hungry you were.

OR

I was young enough to do what I did. Today I wouldn't have the stamina for it. Before I left to catch the subway to my messenger job in Manhattan, but I made myself some soup. It was just soup from a can, but after staggering from the party, I was feeling strangely alien to myself. The velvety tang of the tomato bisque grounded me like a stomach full of normalcy. I left for work very tired, but able to function.

From this, I would understand that the soup was part of you getting your head on straight for work.
​

I picked the soup as an example because it's an isolated detail, easy to work with, and doesn't matter if I completely misunderstood the original intent. But if you do the same thing with more important details, it will make a world of difference. For example, at the party when you run into the other couple making out, you said you feigned ignorance. I assume that meant either that you were embarrassed or that you meant to prevent the couple from being embarrassed. What was definitely missing was the reason that detail sticks in your mind. Was it titillating? How did Lenore react? Did you hope it might have made Lenore want some of the same? Did it make you wish that it was you and Lenore? Or did you imagine you and Martha?

Since we're talking about Martha, I was really confused about where she fit it. I couldn't tell if the guy she was making out with was the guy she came to the party with. There were a number of named people whose relationships weren't established, so I didn't understand their significance in the story. Generally, if the character is named, it's priming me to expect that they play a significant role. Otherwise, they'd usually just be described as "a group of friends." Or, you might say,"One of the girls was making out with a guy she met at the party. It wasn't the guy she came with."

On the other hand, if it is important in later chapters for me to understand who these people are, it would be helpful to me to take some time to establish who they are with some dialog and descriptions. As it is, they are just names that leave me trying unsuccessfully to remember who is who. (Which is actually pretty much what happens to me at a party, but not great for a story!)

I do think you're right that it would have been very helpful to elaborate on Lenore's visit in April of 1973. If it is a mystery, I think you could play that up more with internal dialog. "She had been reluctant to talk about her previous time in New York, and I wondered what it was she didn't want me to know. It might have been nothing. It might have been terribly important. I wouldn't know until she was ready to share it, or until I was willing to press her."

I also think the specific month and date reference is very confusing. It makes me feel like I'm supposed to know something about April 1973. That might also be giving the "historical" feel that EB mentioned. Not historical in the sense of ancient history, but history in the sense of recording history. Unless there's something I'm missing, all the reader needs to know is that she was in New York a previous time. (I'm assuming that at some point in a later chapter this matters.)

I think that what you have here is a start. All you need to do is put the flesh on the bones and help us care about it by showing why you care about it.

 

[MelissaBaby]

I think you pegged the problem in your description of this chapter in your original post, above. You described it as a "short, fill in chapter."

Who wants to read a "short, fill in chapter"?

Why would you write such a chapter?

By publishing your stories in many very short chapters, some of which have no erotic content, you are swimming upstream at Literotica, regardless of the merit of your writing. You are going to lose readers and some of those who finish the story will disapprove. This doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the quality of the story.

If you are concerned about reader response, my recommendation is to:

1. Think hard about what is the erotic focus of your story -- the story as a whole, and the chapter.
2. Make sure every single chapter serves a purpose toward this erotic focus. Do not ever publish a chapter that you would describe as a "fill-in" chapter.
3. Think about whether and to what degree your chapter is providing readers of the category what they are looking for. Put yourself in their shoes. If you don't deliver, you can't expect anything.

I have written chapters with no erotic content, and saw no discernible difference in reader appreciation. But they furthered the development of the relationships of the characters as part of the overall narrative, while still standing alone as complete chapters. I have never written anything that I thought of as a "fill in."

 

[gunhilltrain]

There were a number of little things that irked me as I read.

Breaking it down:
On the Saturday evening of the party - As opposed to some other evening of the party? Saturday does nothing here. It's a continuation of a story. Either you should provide us who are jumping in with some background on the party or you should assume we've read chapter 2 and know that the party is on Saturday.

Lenore had her hair pinned up and she was wearing green shorts. Again, I'm jumping into the middle of the story, but what is the significance of this? What was Lenore signalling by pinning her hair up? Did she look good with her hair pinned up or not? Was she not wearing a blouse?

These were short and tight enough to be interesting but not blatant either. "These" threw me off for a moment as I thought "these" was referring to both her pinned up hair and the shorts. It would have been better to have had, "green shorts, which were short and tight enough..."

We had planned to have a date in the apartment the previous Thursday, but we had cancelled that. - What does that have to do with the current action?

Overall, a very weak start. What does the narrator think of Lenore? What is the conflict going on?

To me, I commented on it shouldn't be followed by dialogue on the topic. The dialogue is the narrator commenting on it.

The She said and I said does nothing and slows down the dialogue. There's just the two of them so of course Lenore is the one replying to the narrator's comment.

Personally, I don't refer to a female character for the first time in a paragraph as "She". "She" needs an antecedent.

As a reader, I assume that the dialog without a tag later in a sentence is uttered by the subject of the sentence. It isn't in this case.

She had an opinion? What the hell? Was it surprising that she had an opinion?

If I was writing this, I would have three to five lines of dialogue with only one introductory dialogue tag, a paragraph to explain the importance of what was discussed, and then the rest of the dialogue with only one introductory dialogue tag.

What's missing throughout this first part is any explanation as to the importance of what is happening. How does Lenore's interest in transit issues impact the narrator? How does it effect the current conflict(s)? Without that explanation, they might as well be reading a grocery list.

Thanks for you input. I guess in a series it's difficult if not impossible to jump into a middle chapter. A middle chapter usually can't be a stand-alone item. The writer can't repeat everything again. That said, I admit I could have handled it better, or maybe I could have just left the chapter out.

Let me mention a couple of things. The party and the Thursday visit to the apartment were described in Chapter 2, so I wasn't going to repeat that again. Yeah, the party doesn't lead into the rest of the story. Maybe Lenore will visit him down at his campus and see those people again; maybe not.

Yes, it is surprising that she has an opinion. It's not just that she's female and so young. I bet that even in a city like New York at least a third of the population has no idea what is going on beyond the line they use themselves. As for knowledge about the city's past before living memory: that is virtually nil. That's probably true about Americans in general. See Jay Leno's Jaywalking videos and his many imitators.

He doesn't really have a conflict with Lenore yet because he just met her and is still getting to know her. In Chapter 4, the first glimmerings of conflict will appear. Namely, she seems to be more sexually experienced than she let's on. Initially he's not that bothered about it. (Hey, he's finally getting laid.)

He in turn has hidden the fact - or evaded it, not lied outright - of his own virginity. She suspects it but initially is not that worried about it either.

I was trying to show that he is starting to appreciate Lenore's intelligence. It seems that the only way to demonstrate that is to have them talk about some specific topic.

By the way, I have read novels with long strings of dialogue between only two people, and I sometimes get lost about who is saying what. I have to go back to the top and go through each line again.

 

[KeithD]

By the way, I have read novels with long strings of dialogue between only two people, and I sometimes get lost about who is saying what. I have to go back to the top and go through each line again.

Yep, that's a not-so-helpful trend that's crept into mainstream novels in recent years.

 

[gunhilltrain]

I'm familiar with railfans and their train-porn. I don't get it. But, I have a story pending, Madness of the Hunt, that includes a very detailed description you'd probably enjoy of an abandoned industry spur and the old buildings around the stub track, complete with a wood pulp mill elevator. The story will probably go up six days from now, and that bit's about halfway through the story, should you care to indulge your taste for such things.

I think it's possible to make those events meaningful and exciting. What it needs is to show how the events effect the narrator (you). They events need emotional weight and they need significance. If you read through it, I think you'll notice there are no words that convey the excitement, fun, romance, or titillation you felt in response to the events you're describing. Reading it, it's easy to think you were bored.

If the fact that you had soup stuck in your head, what about it was memorable. Let's take that as an example. You wrote:

Just the fact that you made soup wasn't terribly interesting, but what if you wrote something like this:

I was young enough to do what I did. Today I wouldn't have the stamina for it. I got home, exhausted and hungry, with only enough time to heat a can of soup before I had to catch the subway to work. My messenger job was all the way in Manhattan. I was very tired, but I could still function.

From this, I would understand the significance of the can of soup of being an illustration of how rushed you were.

OR

I was young enough to do what I did. Today I wouldn't have the stamina for it. I had to rush to catch the subway to my messenger job in Manhattan, but I made time to heat a can of soup. After the aching emptiness in my stomach, the vegetable soup felt like a feast. I was very tired, but I could still function.

From this, I would understand that the significance of the soup as a demonstration of how hungry you were.

OR

I was young enough to do what I did. Today I wouldn't have the stamina for it. Before I left to catch the subway to my messenger job in Manhattan, but I made myself some soup. It was just soup from a can, but after staggering from the party, I was feeling strangely alien to myself. The velvety tang of the tomato bisque grounded me like a stomach full of normalcy. I left for work very tired, but able to function.

From this, I would understand that the soup was part of you getting your head on straight for work.
​

I picked the soup as an example because it's an isolated detail, easy to work with, and doesn't matter if I completely misunderstood the original intent. But if you do the same thing with more important details, it will make a world of difference. For example, at the party when you run into the other couple making out, you said you feigned ignorance. I assume that meant either that you were embarrassed or that you meant to prevent the couple from being embarrassed. What was definitely missing was the reason that detail sticks in your mind. Was it titillating? How did Lenore react? Did you hope it might have made Lenore want some of the same? Did it make you wish that it was you and Lenore? Or did you imagine you and Martha?

Since we're talking about Martha, I was really confused about where she fit it. I couldn't tell if the guy she was making out with was the guy she came to the party with. There were a number of named people whose relationships weren't established, so I didn't understand their significance in the story. Generally, if the character is named, it's priming me to expect that they play a significant role. Otherwise, they'd usually just be described as "a group of friends." Or, you might say,"One of the girls was making out with a guy she met at the party. It wasn't the guy she came with."

On the other hand, if it is important in later chapters for me to understand who these people are, it would be helpful to me to take some time to establish who they are with some dialog and descriptions. As it is, they are just names that leave me trying unsuccessfully to remember who is who. (Which is actually pretty much what happens to me at a party, but not great for a story!)

I do think you're right that it would have been very helpful to elaborate on Lenore's visit in April of 1973. If it is a mystery, I think you could play that up more with internal dialog. "She had been reluctant to talk about her previous time in New York, and I wondered what it was she didn't want me to know. It might have been nothing. It might have been terribly important. I wouldn't know until she was ready to share it, or until I was willing to press her."

I also think the specific month and date reference is very confusing. It makes me feel like I'm supposed to know something about April 1973. That might also be giving the "historical" feel that EB mentioned. Not historical in the sense of ancient history, but history in the sense of recording history. Unless there's something I'm missing, all the reader needs to know is that she was in New York a previous time. (I'm assuming that at some point in a later chapter this matters.)

I think that what you have here is a start. All you need to do is put the flesh on the bones and help us care about it by showing why you care about it.

Thank you; this is a lot to deal with. Ah, if you think railfans are bad, how about baseball fans? They are not as common now, but I've met some who had an incredible grasp of details.

Actually, I was indeed bored at that party. (I didn't even have a girlfriend to distract me.) I'm not that fond of parties in general. I did have a paragraph in there that said that everyone would cover the meaninglessness with alcohol and drugs. Maybe I could have done more with that.

Yes, you are right about what the soup was about. It didn't think much about it when writing that line.

I did kind of blow off the Martha incident when writing about it. I didn't consider much about it, except what people might do when they are drunk. I actually have forgotten much about the party and what those people were like.

I guess I had the option of fictionalizing it more and going with a better story. I was caught between describing something that happened a long time ago and trying to see it anew through the eyes of the narrator. That was my fault - I do better making up stuff rather than going for autobiography and trying to pass it as fiction.

I really messed up the April, 1973 reference. (That was the date of the end of service on the Bronx Third Avenue el.) What I was trying to convey, and failed at, was that he knows so little about Lenore's past. He's just starting to get bothered by her evasiveness. She accidentally gave him a clue that she probably was in New York at that date; he didn't even know that much about her.

I should reread that very old Chapter 1 and find out how much I contradicted myself later.

 

[Enchantment_of_Nyx]

Thank you; this is a lot to deal with. Ah, if you think railfans are bad, how about baseball fans? They are not as common now, but I've met some who had an incredible grasp of details.

Actually, I was indeed bored at that party. (I didn't even have a girlfriend to distract me.) I'm not that fond of parties in general. I did have a paragraph in there that said that everyone would cover the meaninglessness with alcohol and drugs. Maybe I could have done more with that.

Yes, you are right about what the soup was about. It didn't think much about it when writing that line.

I did kind of blow off the Martha incident when writing about it. I didn't consider much about it, except what people might do when they are drunk. I actually have forgotten much about the party and what those people were like.

I guess I had the option of fictionalizing it more and going with a better story. I was caught between describing something that happened a long time ago and trying to see it anew through the eyes of the narrator. That was my fault - I do better making up stuff rather than going for autobiography and trying to pass it as fiction.

I really messed up the April, 1973 reference. (That was the date of the end of service on the Bronx Third Avenue el.) What I was trying to convey, and failed at, was that he knows so little about Lenore's past. He's just starting to get bothered by her evasiveness. She accidentally gave him a clue that she probably was in New York at that date; he didn't even know that much about her.

I should reread that very old Chapter 1 and find out how much I contradicted myself later.

With railfans, I at least know what they're talking about. When it comes to baseball fans, my eyes glaze over. I understand the rules of the game, but when people start spouting all stats with abbreviations and numbers, I not only have no idea what they're talking about, but no inclination to find out. It is dangerous to just smile and nod, as it is frequently taken as encouragement. That pales in comparison, though, to an argument between two baseball fans about a particular game that happened years ago, and what the stats were for each player. Aye, aye, aye!

What you mentioned about fictionalizing versus reality reminded me of a line of thought I had in the bath the other day, where I do all my most unproductive thinking about nothing of any importance whatsoever. Somewhere between thinking about eggnog and trying to figure out where one of my characters would fall on the Myers-Briggs inventory, I thought about biographies. It struck me that they must be more difficult to write than fiction. They amount to a curation and presentation of the facts. The writer must choose which facts to include and how to organize them in a way that makes more sense than the chaotic way life is experienced as we move through it. The facts must be made interesting, and one must be able to see the connection between the facts and the subject of the biography. Unless a person was of a very literal mindset, that seems more difficult than fiction, where things occur in the way we need them to occur to carry the story.

Since you actually were bored with the party, you've pulled off the beginnings of conveying that. The bit you didn't include about using drugs and alcohol to disguise the meaninglessness would have been really good. Your writing style is a little Hemingway-esque, especially if you were to replace a bunch of those semicolons with periods. (You probably ought to, in any event. I think maybe some of those independent clauses are not so closely related that a semicolon is called for.) Beyond the spare diction and direct sentence structure, the similarity extends to the type of writing. Like Hemingway, you are using actual experiences for the backdrop for sometimes true, sometimes re-imagined events. His bends more toward fiction and yours bends more toward autobiography.

One thing about Ernest Hemingway's work is the way he used boredom as a mood more than an emotion. In A Farewelll to Arms, the boredom felt almost like a setting to me. And yet, I wasn't exactly bored reading it. I had a strange feeling of in-character boredom. That's the trick, I think. How do you convey boredom without boring the reader away? I think that with Hemingway, the answer may be that the narrator's describing things that are not boring in a bored fashion, so that the narrator's boredom and the boredom of his compatriots becomes a commentary on the realities of life behind the lines. It's overdone, in my opinion, and a bit self-indulgent, but it does show a use for featuring the real boredom of a the situation.

Moving that into erotica is tough. In For Whom the Bell Tolls, which I feel features a very similar sort of boredom, Hemingway manages to turn sex with Maria into something so underwhelming that it is a little sad. Maybe that was the point. I'm not sure. When I try to remember it, mostly what I remember was the insistent use of tawny yellow colors. Even to a hormone-soaked high school student, it was not erotic.

I'm not suggesting emulating Hemingway. I think his work has a lot of weaknesses despite its acclaim. More to the point, I think it would be easy to replicate his writing's less desirable qualities without capturing the ineffable mood that makes his work. But, I think you could look at his approach to see how it functions and take what you can apply to your own. Or not. There are enough parallels between styles that it is at least going to be instructive even if you use none of it. One thing that might work for you is to try some of his style of restrained imagery to carry your mood.

I think that if you want to play up the boredom and create some eroticism, you could go the Hemingway route with the description of the party, but use internal dialog differently to create tension between the external mundanity of the party and the narrator's romantic and/or erotic thoughts about and intentions toward Lenore. The boring backdrop of the party could give him time to fantasize a bit about her. At the end of the chapter, there was some frustrated fondling that suggested the narrator had been thinking along those lines. If you write those thoughts and feelings into it, the dull party becomes a nice contrast to inner excitement.

I know you've said this is sort of a filler chapter, but I don't think it has to be. If you're inclined, I think you could re-work this and that it would be an interesting skill-building exercise.

 

[8letters]

By the way, I have read novels with long strings of dialogue between only two people, and I sometimes get lost about who is saying what. I have to go back to the top and go through each line again.

I agree that too many lines of dialogue without a dialogue tag is confusing to read. When I write, four is usually my limit for bang-bang lines of dialogue. But having a dialogue tag for every line of dialogue adds words without adding clarity.

 

[gunhilltrain]

I have written chapters with no erotic content, and saw no discernible difference in reader appreciation. But they furthered the development of the relationships of the characters as part of the overall narrative, while still standing alone as complete chapters. I have never written anything that I thought of as a "fill in."

That was a misstep, I admit it.

I am learning a lesson, I think. I have never before used so much autobiographical material, except in essays. It's not a very good technique because, first, I don't remember that much about it and, second, it wasn't that interesting to begin with.

The first two chapters did much better, probably because even though the setting was familiar, the material was fresh imagined.

P.S.: On those I did get former Bronx residents who wrote things like, "I remember that; I used to live a couple of blocks away."

 

[MelissaBaby]

That was a misstep, I admit it.

I am learning a lesson, I think. I have never before used so much autobiographical material, except in essays. It's not a very good technique because, first, I don't remember that much about it and, second, it wasn't that interesting to begin with.

The first two chapters did much better, probably because even though the setting was familiar, the material was fresh imagined.

P.S.: On those I did get former Bronx residents who wrote things like, "I remember that; I used to live a couple of blocks away."

I've written two multi-chapter series. (Well, almost two, the second one is two chapters from its conclusion).

In the first, I wrote two timelines in alternating chapters, merging them together only in the final chapter.

In the second, I had a lot of backstory, but rather than present it in separate chapters, I worked it into the main narrative in chunks.

There is always a way, if you think creatively.

 

[gunhilltrain]

With railfans, I at least know what they're talking about. When it comes to baseball fans, my eyes glaze over. I understand the rules of the game, but when people start spouting all stats with abbreviations and numbers, I not only have no idea what they're talking about, but no inclination to find out. It is dangerous to just smile and nod, as it is frequently taken as encouragement. That pales in comparison, though, to an argument between two baseball fans about a particular game that happened years ago, and what the stats were for each player. Aye, aye, aye!

What you mentioned about fictionalizing versus reality reminded me of a line of thought I had in the bath the other day, where I do all my most unproductive thinking about nothing of any importance whatsoever. Somewhere between thinking about eggnog and trying to figure out where one of my characters would fall on the Myers-Briggs inventory, I thought about biographies. It struck me that they must be more difficult to write than fiction. They amount to a curation and presentation of the facts. The writer must choose which facts to include and how to organize them in a way that makes more sense than the chaotic way life is experienced as we move through it. The facts must be made interesting, and one must be able to see the connection between the facts and the subject of the biography. Unless a person was of a very literal mindset, that seems more difficult than fiction, where things occur in the way we need them to occur to carry the story.

Since you actually were bored with the party, you've pulled off the beginnings of conveying that. The bit you didn't include about using drugs and alcohol to disguise the meaninglessness would have been really good. Your writing style is a little Hemingway-esque, especially if you were to replace a bunch of those semicolons with periods. (You probably ought to, in any event. I think maybe some of those independent clauses are not so closely related that a semicolon is called for.) Beyond the spare diction and direct sentence structure, the similarity extends to the type of writing. Like Hemingway, you are using actual experiences for the backdrop for sometimes true, sometimes re-imagined events. His bends more toward fiction and yours bends more toward autobiography.

One thing about Ernest Hemingway's work is the way he used boredom as a mood more than an emotion. In A Farewelll to Arms, the boredom felt almost like a setting to me. And yet, I wasn't exactly bored reading it. I had a strange feeling of in-character boredom. That's the trick, I think. How do you convey boredom without boring the reader away? I think that with Hemingway, the answer may be that the narrator's describing things that are not boring in a bored fashion, so that the narrator's boredom and the boredom of his compatriots becomes a commentary on the realities of life behind the lines. It's overdone, in my opinion, and a bit self-indulgent, but it does show a use for featuring the real boredom of a the situation.

Moving that into erotica is tough. In For Whom the Bell Tolls, which I feel features a very similar sort of boredom, Hemingway manages to turn sex with Maria into something so underwhelming that it is a little sad. Maybe that was the point. I'm not sure. When I try to remember it, mostly what I remember was the insistent use of tawny yellow colors. Even to a hormone-soaked high school student, it was not erotic.

I'm not suggesting emulating Hemingway. I think his work has a lot of weaknesses despite its acclaim. More to the point, I think it would be easy to replicate his writing's less desirable qualities without capturing the ineffable mood that makes his work. But, I think you could look at his approach to see how it functions and take what you can apply to your own. Or not. There are enough parallels between styles that it is at least going to be instructive even if you use none of it. One thing that might work for you is to try some of his style of restrained imagery to carry your mood.

I think that if you want to play up the boredom and create some eroticism, you could go the Hemingway route with the description of the party, but use internal dialog differently to create tension between the external mundanity of the party and the narrator's romantic and/or erotic thoughts about and intentions toward Lenore. The boring backdrop of the party could give him time to fantasize a bit about her. At the end of the chapter, there was some frustrated fondling that suggested the narrator had been thinking along those lines. If you write those thoughts and feelings into it, the dull party becomes a nice contrast to inner excitement.

I know you've said this is sort of a filler chapter, but I don't think it has to be. If you're inclined, I think you could re-work this and that it would be an interesting skill-building exercise.

Thanks for your response. I appreciate the amount of advice I've been getting.

My interest in sports comes and goes. Now I couldn't name which team won the World Series in the last ten years. The same is true for the Super Bowl.

About biography and reality versus fiction: I mentioned in the previous message that autobiographical stuff should be used sparingly, not be the main focus. It would have to be something really good to be worth a rehash.

Boredom in erotica is indeed tricky. Usually if I write about disappointing sex, the underlying problem is not boredom. It's something like being too abrupt, having an uncomfortable setting (like a car), or the partner is wrong (infidelity may be involved, or it's an inappropriate encounter like between a professor and a student).

I've already been called out about the semi-colons. I've got to watch that.

I recently did rewrite on something as an exercise, based on the opinions in an anonymous comment. It turned out that this person was right. I'm trying to make it into a series now. I will consider your suggestions about rewriting this as an exercise too. It will be a challenge to get the fictional elements into the reality of this half-remembered event.

 

[gunhilltrain]

I've written two multi-chapter series. (Well, almost two, the second one is two chapters from its conclusion).

In the first, I wrote two timelines in alternating chapters, merging them together only in the final chapter.

In the second, I had a lot of backstory, but rather than present it in separate chapters, I worked it into the main narrative in chunks.

There is always a way, if you think creatively.

I'm only now getting into true series - ones with an overall title. Previously, I've had groups of stores that were sequels or prequels to each other.

Different timelines, which I used in those stories, can be interesting because they allow for flexibility. One is not locked into a single set of events. I've also done alternate versions of a story, but often a year or so goes by before I come up with something new.

I'm a little wary of too much backstory; I'll have to think more about that. Anyway, a series, when complete, is in effect a serialized novel or novella, correct?

 

[ElectricBlue]

I'm only now getting into true series - ones with an overall title. Previously, I've had groups of stores that were sequels or prequels to each other.

Different timelines, which I used in those stories, can be interesting because they allow for flexibility. One is not locked into a single set of events. I've also done alternate versions of a story, but often a year or so goes by before I come up with something new.

I'm a little wary of too much backstory; I'll have to think more about that. Anyway, a series, when complete, is in effect a serialized novel or novella, correct?

Most of my stories inter-relate in one way or another, especially those written in the last few years - mainly because I get interested in side characters and take them off into stories of their own, or give older characters cameos in newer stories. For me it becomes a form of lazy shorthand - I know my lead character's attributes so well I can concentrate on the new protagonist, because that's the character I'm interested in.

 

[ElectricBlue]

I'm not suggesting emulating Hemingway. I think his work has a lot of weaknesses despite its acclaim. More to the point, I think it would be easy to replicate his writing's less desirable qualities without capturing the ineffable mood that makes his work. But, I think you could look at his approach to see how it functions and take what you can apply to your own. Or not. There are enough parallels between styles that it is at least going to be instructive even if you use none of it. One thing that might work for you is to try some of his style of restrained imagery to carry your mood.

When Gunhilltrain's first stories showed up here I commented that they reminded me of Hubert Selby's Last Exit to Brooklyn - they still do, and that's in a good way.

The writing does have a distancing effect, though, which for erotica might be a bit too alienating - it's not intimate. Your locations are important for the very strong sense of place and time I get from your work - a literary Edward Hopper. There's definitely a mood in your work, even if it doesn't always strike a chord with readers - but I'm always a fan of mood over plot, so there's that. Keep going, I say .

 

[Enchantment_of_Nyx]

When Gunhilltrain's first stories showed up here I commented that they reminded me of Hubert Selby's Last Exit to Brooklyn - they still do, and that's in a good way.

The writing does have a distancing effect, though, which for erotica might be a bit too alienating - it's not intimate. Your locations are important for the very strong sense of place and time I get from your work - a literary Edward Hopper. There's definitely a mood in your work, even if it doesn't always strike a chord with readers - but I'm always a fan of mood over plot, so there's that. Keep going, I say .

That said, let's keep the quotation marks.

 

[ElectricBlue]

That said, let's keep the quotation marks.

Yes, that was a stylistic, "Look at me, aren't I clever?" that did get annoying.