St. Andrew’s Cross technical writing

[Ginlover]

I hope it is okay to ask this question here as google failed miserably. I’m not totally sure if there is a right answer more a consensus of opinion. I’m being stereotypical and I’ve included a St Andrew's Cross in my latest story. But what is the accepted way to write it?

St. Andrew’s Cross - wikipedia way and technically the correct English punctuation way.
St Andrew Cross - other erotica and sellers use this version
St Andrews Cross - specialised sellers use this version too

Should the cross be capitalised?
Should the St be dotted St.?

I kinda wish I hadn’t included it as it’s integral to the story so I have to write it several times, and I need to use what is most acceptable to not drag readers out of the story each time it’s written.

Last question, in casual speech, would it be acceptable to just say “cross” ? ie; “go stand by the cross.”

I freely admit this is so far out of my comfort zone, but, damn it, what’s lockdown for if it isn’t to try and create some more kinky stories. TIA

 

[UsuallyPresent]

I'm most used to seeing it spelled out as "St. Andrew's Cross" but have seen your other two spelling alternatives hither and yon.

Depending on the Dom/me's preferred tone, you can also call it 'saltire' (stuffy/pedantic/precise/etc - think vampire overtones) or even 'the X' (cruder, perhaps more pissed off. "Can't follow instructions, huh? Get your ass over on that X. No, not your belly, your ass. And here I thought you couldn't get any dumber....").

I've heard 'cross' being used occasionally, but if there are more than one other descriptors - big/little, wood/steel/plastic, whatever - can also be used. Given not too many have more than one, I'd think just 'cross' should work most of the time.

 

[litfan10]

I've always seen it as "St. Andrews Cross" and occasionally with a small 'c' but not nearly as common.

I've also seen a lot of times it listed just as "cross" with no reference to St. Andrews.

 

[lovecraft68]

I've always used the full St Andrew's Cross because that's what calls out its X shape as opposed to the standard cross.

If your reader is experienced maybe just cross would suffice, but to a novice-or anyone that read 50 shades and thinks they know BDSM-you should call it out.

Ironic that the only people who know what it is are the BDSM crowd and....Catholics.

 

[TarnishedPenny]

Breaking it down, the name comes from, no surprise, Saint Andrew. The story is that he was crucified for his faith on an X-shaped cross. While he was probably neither the first or last for that dubious honour, his name has come to be attached to that instrument. But when something is named after somebody, it's possessive, I think. It's David's car and Betty's purse, so the apostrophe is needed. St Andrews suggests that more than one Andrew is involved. I await final judgment by one of the usual grammar mavens here, but that's how I see it.

As to the capitalization of the third word, I have generally seen it capitalized, but I doubt it would make much difference if it really bothers somebody.

So, my vote is for St. Andrew's Cross.

 

[colddiesel]

In any Scottish context it is more commonly referred to as The Saltire. If you see it on a ship it's the ensign of the Russian Navy.

 

[lovecraft68]

In any Scottish context it is more commonly referred to as The Saltire. If you see it on a ship it's the ensign of the Russian Navy.

Issue with that is how much of a readership would know that term? Not that these days you can't google a word to get its meaning, but I try t follow the Kiss rule- as in keep it simple stupid- and go with what the majority recognize.

 

[KeithD]

I think St. Andrew's Cross is closest to standard, but any should do as long as you remain internally consistent with the spelling. I think "X-frame" as a generic mention is clearer than "cross." Here, though, in the generic, you wouldn't need to use one rendering consistently. You could mix up the references. You even could capitalize "Cross" used alone, as long as that was consistent and was always referring to a St. Andrew's Cross.

 

[vanmyers86]

I learn so much on these threads. I had no idea this was A Thing.

 

[litfan10]

I learn so much on these threads. I had no idea this was A Thing.

It's also a type of spider

 

[KeithD]

It's also a type of spider

And a form of jewelry.

 

[Bramblethorn]

It's also a type of spider

Pretty things. There was a spot at my parents' beach house that regularly had a St. Andrew's Cross spider. It was there for at least ten years, so I assume it wasn't always the same spider, but there was usually one there.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argiope_keyserlingi

 

[Kumquatqueen]

Andrew's, for sure.
St would get a full stop (period) if you also use one for Mr and Mrs and Dr - it's a matter of style. Most British guidance stopped using them in the early 90s so I always think of those periods as being American.

Cross - personally I'd capitalise it only when talking about the actual one St Andrew was killed on, similar to other Christian references to the Cross, and leave uncapitalised when talking about the furniture item, same with a Catherine wheel. But I think that's just personal preference and it doesn't matter as long as you're consistent.

'Come stand by the Cross' looks odd to me.

 

[ElectricBlue]

Cross - personally I'd capitalise it only when talking about the actual one St Andrew was killed on, similar to other Christian references to the Cross, and leave uncapitalised when talking about the furniture item, same with a Catherine wheel. But I think that's just personal preference and it doesn't matter as long as you're consistent.

'Come stand by the Cross' looks odd to me.

I agree. Capitalising an object or a place in fiction is a cue that's it's a reference to the commonly accepted cultural understanding of that thing or place. For example, the Tube is London's underground railway, the Metro is in Paris or Moscow, the El is in New York. They're cultural givens, I think.

On that basis, I reckon the Catholics are entitled to their St. Andrew's Cross, and a person might find themselves tied to a St. Andrew's cross (unless they're the original saint).

 

[colddiesel]

On that basis, I reckon the Catholics are entitled to their St. Andrew's Cross.

Shouldn't that be crux decussata in that context?

 

[SimonDoom]

"St. Andrew's Cross" is correct.

1. "St." is the proper, standard abbreviation of "Saint." The most widely recognized standard for abbreviations is to end them with a period/full stop. Some may think it's OK to use "St" without a period, but some won't. No one will object if you use "St." Use the period.

2. The saint is named Saint Andrew. So St. Andrews makes no sense, because it sounds plural. It conjures up a cross that belongs at the famous Scottish golf course. So, yes, absolutely, use an apostrophe. "Andrew's" not "Andrews". It's possessive. It absolutely requires an apostrophe.

3. Capitalize all terms. When an object has special significance, you capitalize all the words. Iron Cross, not Iron cross. Holy Grail, not Holy grail. Good Samaritan, not Good samaritan. Same with St. Andrew's Cross.

 

[LexxRuthless]

"St. Andrew's Cross" is correct.

3. Capitalize all terms. When an object has special significance, you capitalize all the words. Iron Cross, not Iron cross. Holy Grail, not Holy grail. Good Samaritan, not Good samaritan. Same with St. Andrew's Cross.

I'm going to disagree with you in this case, Simon. In English usage, a "proper noun" is capitalized because it refers to a specific individual or item. Cross would be capitalized if you are referring to THE cross used to crucify St. Andrew, but not to anyone else's replica of that cross for household use. It should be St. Andrew's cross.

 

[SimonDoom]

I'm going to disagree with you in this case, Simon. In English usage, a "proper noun" is capitalized because it refers to a specific individual or item. Cross would be capitalized if you are referring to THE cross used to crucify St. Andrew, but not to anyone else's replica of that cross for household use. It should be St. Andrew's cross.

This one piqued my curiosity. In my online research, most references to this capitalize "Cross." But I couldn't find a good statement of a rule that justified this practice. I could not find anything in the Chicago Manual of Style that decides the issue.

"St. Andrew's Cross", with the capitalized "C" seems right to me, and seems to be the way it's often done, but I can't find a good authority to support one way or the other. What you say makes sense, so I'm not sure what the right way to do it is, or if there is a "right" way in this particular case.

 

[KeithD]

"Cross is a proper noun by convention only when referring to the Cross, i.e. Jesus's."

Well, no. Any time it's used as a specific substitute name for a proper noun, it can be capitalized to denote that noun. The Christian Church doesn't own proper grammar.

"The pub down the road is called the Crooked Crossroad, but locals just refer to it as the Cross."

 

[TarnishedPenny]

Thinking on this, were I writing a story with this:

Laura smiled at the St. Andrew’s Cross so occupying so prominent a spot against the dungeon wall. [Later] She gasped as he bound her bare and slender limbs to the cross.

 

[Bramblethorn]

I'm going to disagree with you in this case, Simon. In English usage, a "proper noun" is capitalized because it refers to a specific individual or item. Cross would be capitalized if you are referring to THE cross used to crucify St. Andrew, but not to anyone else's replica of that cross for household use. It should be St. Andrew's cross.

Disagree. We don't talk about soldiers being awarded "a Victoria cross" or "a Congressional medal of honor". The proper noun refers to a specific type of cross, not just a single original.

Same here: the "St. Andrew's Cross" is like the "Union Jack", a specific emblem, which in this case also happens to be used for BDSM.

edit: whoops, in the hours between when I started writing this and when I posted, several other people covered this point.

 

[Ginlover]

Thank you all so much. What with British and US grammar and then internal debates, the best reply is what will annoy the fewest people.
St. Andrew’s Cross and cross is what I’ve opted for. Due to the actual content of the story I think I’ll upset more people with that than how I’ve written cross lol. But I’ll at least hope no one complains about St. Andrew’s Cross in the text

And I loved the spider and jewellery discussion too. Two years ago I wouldn’t have had a clue what a St. Andrew's Cross was or that it is used in kink.

 

[TarnishedPenny]

Two years ago I wouldn’t have had a clue what a St. Andrew's Cross was or that it is used in kink.

Welcome to the dark side.

 

[TxRad]

Welcome to the dark side.

I keep the lights on in my dungeon. The better to see the subs reaction, among other things.

 

[Kumquatqueen]

I remember seeing the most fantastic St Andrew's cross at a fetish fair. Front surfaces upholstered in padded leather, riveted down all sides, beautifully polished hardwood. And hinged. The whole thing folded up into a fairly innocent-looking cuboid footstool.

Sadly the price tag had more digits than I could deal with, but it may be a project for my retirement...