What do you call an aircraft carrier captain concerned for the safety of his crew?

[Conager]

He did, because the administration is so corrupt and incompetent that he had no other choice and to still be human. He pulled rank on that disgusting clown Trump and his people told the world he was right. A commander-in-chief who is as corrupt and incompetent as Trump is has lost his/her authority. That's what the sailors of the aircraft carrier told Trump--he's defunct.

Whether or not the ship's captain is punished, those up the line who didn't step in to respond quickly to the problem need to be publicly punished as well. Otherwise they've lost their authority over their sailors--which was demonstrated for them on film when the captain left the vessel.

A ship is not a democracy, the sailors do not get a vote. Them expressing appreciation for their captain is not equivalent to them agreeing with how he handled this or the consequences he faced. Some may, but they do not get a vote.

The Secretary of the Navy praised the Captain, his character, and the affection he has for his crew and his crew for him. That does not change the command decision.

If you had actually served in the CIA, you would understand these concepts of command and control over individual welfare. If you had flown an SR-71 you would have gotten your initial flight training in the military and would also have been properly indoctrinated about such issues.

 

[sygn]

How many 70 year old/sick sailors were on that ship anyways?

He wrote the letter on March the 30.
And on that day 60 minutes Australia aired this piece in which NY doctors were saying that the virus is now severely affecting the young too.
I suspect that American media were ahead of them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtvNc9vhx94&t=26s

 

[sygn]

A ship is not a democracy, the sailors do not get a vote. Them expressing appreciation for their captain is not equivalent to them agreeing with how he handled this or the consequences he faced. Some may, but they do not get a vote.

The Secretary of the Navy praised the Captain, his character, and the affection he has for his crew and his crew for him. That does not change the command decision.

If you had actually served in the CIA, you would understand these concepts of command and control over individual welfare. If you had flown an SR-71 you would have gotten your initial flight training in the military and would also have been properly indoctrinated about such issues.

Yes, but shouldn't those higher up in the chain of command be investigated and demoted too, for an incompetent decision that put the soldiers' lives at risk?

 

[Botanical11B]

He did, because the administration is so corrupt and incompetent that he had no other choice and to still be human. He pulled rank on that disgusting clown Trump and his people told the world he was right. A commander-in-chief who is as corrupt and incompetent as Trump is has lost his/her authority. That's what the sailors of the aircraft carrier told Trump--he's defunct.

Whether or not the ship's captain is punished, those up the line who didn't step in to respond quickly to the problem need to be publicly punished as well. Otherwise they've lost their authority over their sailors--which was demonstrated for them on film when the captain left the vessel.

BAAAAAAHAHAHAHA!!!

UCMJ says otherwise Shitforbrains, you're so drunk on hate for Trump you compulsively make moronic statements that show just how out of touch with reality you are.

 

[Conager]

Yes, but shouldn't those higher up in the chain of command be investigated and demoted too, for an incompetent decision that put the soldiers' lives at risk?

What "incompetent decision?"

We have no idea what steps were being taken to mitigate the danger and how that has to be balanced with military needs to keep that carrier up and running.

If the Navy decided to enact a policy of overreaction that we are currently seeing in the civilian population everytime a case was found, all an enemy would have to do would be to infect one sailor on any given ship to knock it out of commission. That is not going to happen. Ever.

Soldiers and sailors are trained with idea that it some point they might be met with biological warfare and they will fight through that. They aren't going to go home on sick leave if a pathogen gets introduced whether that's by the enemy or nature.

Doing anything but what the Navy did would *encourage* future adversaries to elevate the benefit of bio-weopons.

I think that more soldiers died of the Spanish flu during World War I then were shot. <citation needed>

 

[sygn]

What "incompetent decision?"

We have no idea what steps were being taken to mitigate the danger and how that has to be balanced with military needs to keep that carrier up and running.

It's the military decided to an active policy of over reaction that we are currently seeing in the civilian populist everytime a case popped up all Anatomy would have to do would be to infect one Sailor on any given ship to knock it out of commission. That is not going to happen. Ever.

I think that more soldiers died of the Spanish flu during World War I then were shot. <citation needed>

What over-reaction? 200 positives on a crammed unventilated ship, is a dead serious issue.
And it was you who started a thread a few days ago, stating a link between contagiousness/severity and infectious dose/viral load.
https://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?t=1520780

 

[Conager]

So what do you do?

Transport them off ship? How? And to where? They have fully qualified medical staff and fully equipped medical facilities on board. They should take them to another fully qualified military medical facility that may well be needed for local populations? Infect that facility? You sure aren't going to evac contagious sailors onto foreign soil.

We have and are leaving civilians on infected cruise ships to protect the ports.

How is this different, other than the fact you have a flight deck for evacuations?

This is one of those situations with we're there are no good options. Only bad, and worse.

Whatever plan they had in place before the captain's letter is probably more less the same plan with whatever modifications they been able to come up with, since.

I have no argument whatsoever with the captain who is there closest at hand coming up with a plan that he thinks is a better idea and forwarding that up the chain. Nobody up the chain doesn't want a better plan if there is such a thing available.

If this was Ebola you definitely would leave them out to sea to sort it out, rather than bring them stateside.

 

[Botanical11B]

Yes, but shouldn't those higher up in the chain of command be investigated and demoted too, for an incompetent decision that put the soldiers' lives at risk?

Jesus Christ..... sygn and a shockingly large number of other lefties seem to think the US military is a summer camp for bubble kids run by snowplow soccer mommies there to provide the kiddies with a college eduction and healthcare in the safest environment and conditions the US taxpayers dollar can afford.

 

[Conager]

Jesus Christ..... sygn and a shockingly large number of other lefties seem to think the US military is a summer camp for bubble kids run by snowplow soccer mommies there to provide the kiddies with a college eduction and healthcare in the safest environment and conditions the US taxpayers dollar can afford.

Exactly. What if this came from a shell fired at the ship with a bio-weapon aboard? What would be the plan? I'm sure they have one. That's mostly what the military does in peace time- come up with plans for every conceivable scenario that they can possibly dream up.

No such thing as "inconceivable" to the US military.

 

[doowdniw]

What "incompetent decision?"

I think that more soldiers died of the Spanish flu during World War I then were shot. <citation needed>

I was going to make a comment about overkill, but thought better of it. It's actually hard to say with accuracy: total US casualties from WWI were over 116,000 from all causes, including influenza.

 

[OldJourno]

Wow, is everyone off on a tangent here or something?
My new glasses are a bit fuzzy, but here we are on page 4 of this thread and I don't think anyone has gotten the answer yet.
Is it James T. Kirk?

 

[Conager]

I was going to make a comment about overkill, but thought better of it. It's actually hard to say with accuracy: total US casualties from WWI were over 116,000 from all causes, including influenza.

Not sure where I read that, or it's accuracy. Regardless, the toll influenza had on wounded, medics, etc had to be yuuuge. They would laugh at this nontroversy, given a century of medical scientific progress. They also wouldn't have had a way to particularly differentiate between an evil corona virus, and a regular, harmless influenza strain.

I worry that this complete shut-down is going to give terrorists ideas. 9/11 should not have had the economic impact that it did and this is going to be orders of magnitude worse.

 

[KeithD]

Whole lot of ignored pissing going on on this thread.

 

[Conager]

Wow, is everyone off on a tangent here or something?
My new glasses are a bit fuzzy, but here we are on page 4 of this thread and I don't think anyone has gotten the answer yet.
Is it James T. Kirk?

You are thinking of a different carrier:

https://www.thoughtco.com/thmb/6nY09NXI42zXjyPyyH8uckczbyE=/768x0/filters:no_upscale():max_bytes(150000):strip_icc()/uss-enterprise-cv6-large-56a61b295f9b58b7d0dff0bc.jpg

The USS Enterprise

 

[sygn]

I extracted a few excerpts from his letter.
How I interpretated it:

This part shows that he wasn't betraying his military oath.

https://www.defenseone.com/threats/...ected-coronavirus/164254/?oref=d-channelriver

" lf required the USS TR would embark and be ready to fight and beat any adversary that dates challenge the US or our allies. The virus would certainly have an impact, but in combat we are willing to take certain risks that are not acceptable in peacetime. However, we are not at war, and therefore cannot allow a single Sailor to perish as a result of this pandemic unnecessarily. Decisive action is required now in order to comply with CDC and NAVADMTN 083/20 guidance and prevent tragic outcomes.

6. PROPOSED NEW STRATEGY:
There are two end states TR could achieve:
1. Maximize warfighting readiness and capacity as quickly possible. No timeline necessary. We go to war with the force we have and fight sick. We never Achieve a COVID-free TR. There will he losses to the virus.
2. Achieve a COVlD-free TR. Requires strict Adherence to CDC guidelines and methodical approach to achieve a clean ship. This requires immediate and decisive action. It will take time and money.

As war is not imminent, we recommend pursuing the peace time end state.
TR has two primary goals in order to achieve that end state:
a. Prevent unnecessary deaths, reduce the no... that contract COVlD19 and eliminate future virus spread.
b. Regain and maximize warfighting readinness and capacity as quickly as possible.”


This part shows that the present measures weren't complying with the CDC or NAVADMIN guidelines.

"2. INAPPROPRIATE FOCUS ON TESTING
The COVlD-19 test cannot prove a Sailor does not have the vims; it can only prove that e Sailor does. As In illustration, of the first 33 TR sailors diagnosed with COVID-l9, 21 % (7 of those 33) infected Sailors were negative on COVID-19 test, then subsequently presented with symptoms of COVID- 19 infection within 1-3 days post-test.

Based on data since TR’s first case. approximately 21% of the Sailors that tested negative and are currently moving into group restricted movement ashore are currently infected, will develop symptoms over the next several days, and will proceed to infect the remainder of their shore-based restricted group.

3. INAPPROPRIATE QUARANTINE AND ISOLATION
With the exceptions of a handful of senior officer staterooms, none of the berthing onboard a warship is appropriate for quarantine or isolation. ‘Thousands of “close contact" sailors require quarantine in accordance with guidance.

TR has begun to move personnel off ship into shore-based group restricted movement locations. Of the Off ship locations currently available, only one complies with the NAVADMIN guidance. Infected Sailors reside in these off ship locations. Two Sailors have already tested positive in an open bay gymnasium equipped with cots.

In order to stop the spread of the virus, the CDC and the Navy and Marine Corps Public Health Center both recommend (...) limited or no contact with other exposed individuals and no use of the same facilities or items exposed individuals have touched NAVADMIN 083/20 cdtoes this guidance.

4. INEFFECTIVENNES OF CURRENT STRATEGY
The current strategy will only slow the spread. The current plan in execution on TR will not achieve virus eradication on any timeline.

5 LESSONS LEARNED FROM DIAMOND PRINCESS (q:epidemiological research article)
On 3 February. 2020, an outbreak of COVlD-19 on cruise ship The Diamond Princess was reported following an index case on board mound 21-25 Januanry. (….)
The DP was able to more effectively isolate people on board than TR, due to a much him percentage of individualized and compartimentalized accommodations onboard for paying customers. Their measures still allowed hundreds of people to become infected.
TR‘s Best-case result, given the current environment, are likely to be much worse.

 

[Rightguide]

I see Trump fired that turncoat Intel IG Inspector General, Michael Atkinson as well. Schiff stool pigeon.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/tr...told-congress-about-ukraine-phone-call-report

 

[sygn]

..... .

 

[sygn]

I see Trump fired that turncoat Intel IG Inspector General, Michael Atkinson as well. Schiff stool pigeon.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/tr...told-congress-about-ukraine-phone-call-report

What does this event have to do with Trump?
Aren't those cases completely different,
and moreover, wasn't some general or whoever army member (not Trump) responsible for the decision re USS TR?

 

[sygn]

What "incompetent decision?"

I think that more soldiers died of the Spanish flu during World War I then were shot. <citation needed>

Are you guys engaged in a war that I'm not aware of?

Soldiers and sailors are trained with idea that it some point they might be met with biological warfare and they will fight through that.
They aren't going to go home on sick leave if a pathogen gets introduced whether that's by the enemy or nature.

Doing anything but what the Navy did would *encourage* future adversaries to elevate the benefit of bio-weopons.

Yes, let them stay crammed like sardines during an outbreak in times of peace,
to show how tough Americans are.

 

[sygn]

Does anyone have a link re the correspondence predating Crozier's letter?

Yes I'm shit-spamming the thread, but for some reason I got caught up in this drama.

I browsed Fox News to see what the other side says, and the comments written by people who said they served in the Army were split in half. Both sides made valid comments.
-- As for this thread -- but for KeithD, the rest who have Army experience seem to be on the pro-Modly team.

I already heard them bring up arguments similar to no.1 below,
so I'd be interested in hearing them debunk no.2 below:


https://www.foxnews.com/media/gen-m...aircraft-carrier-captain-over-covid-19-letter

1. PRO-MODLY COMMENTS
"The Captain has every right to dispute it all through the proper channels.
But the captain did not act in accordance with Joint Chiefs of Staff directive on reporting unit readiness. He doesn't get special privileges. I get his motives and I admire it but, he traded his career for it. HIS choice. He was fired, and it was the right call."

"The captain went outside channels on showed a weak spot in the defense of this country
Announcing to the world that the boat has issues when it's in a defense position for the US is a serious situation.
This is about a Nuclear Strike Carrier. One of the world's single most powerful weapons.
It was probably deemed more important that he stay on station to counter a threat. Possibly an enemy nuclear submarine. We'll never know and we should never know."

BUT (I may add):
All these arguments operate on trusting Modly's public explanations (we were already working on it, trying to convince reluctant Guam authorities, I would have listened if he came to me)
as opposed to what others suspect: that Crozier did it as a last resort, having run into a brick wall.

2. PRO-CROZIER
"I'm sure he was well aware of what would happen before he sent the email out.
(rhat naval officers are not allowed to circumvent the chain of command without consequences.) Apparently he felt that the circumstances warranted the sacrifice of his career."

"Hope he has a document with time-line showing who all he held conference with and what was said before writing the letter.
There is much more to this story than is being told. I suspect he did try to work within his chain and got nothing but double talk and he acted out of protecting his crew."

 

[sygn]

"Modly said that the navy had already begun mobilizing resources to help the crew in response to Crozier’s earlier requests for assistance.
“He was fully aware of the navy’s response, only asking that he wished the crew could be evacuated faster,” the acting secretary said.

He pointed out that so far, none of the infected crew was so ill to need hospitalization, and contrasted that with Crozier’s warning that sailors could die.“No one knows that to be true. It does not comport with the data we have right now on the ship,” Modly said."

lol. Everybody else, even cleaners are now experts in the virus,
but Modly has no f...g clue.

 

[SpeareChucker]

1. You're comparing apples with trains.

2. How is letting your men become infected and die
because of an incompetent boss
help project strength? or help the country?

Between two bad scenarios, he chose the less bad.
His Boss and those higher up should be demoted, for allowing this to happen.

The Navy moves at the speed of government (except for the Marines and SEALS)
and in fact were already moving. The Navy does not generally promote incompetence
especially to the head of the pride of the fleet...

People die in the military all the time without their leadership freaking out
and ignoring chain of command and established procedure.
If anything this was less leadership and more hubris.
Top brass cannot go rogue or the military breaks.

 

[Botanical11B]

The Navy moves at the speed of government (except for the Marines and SEALS)
and in fact were already moving. The Navy does not generally promote incompetence
especially to the head of the pride of the fleet...

People die in the military all the time without their leadership freaking out
and ignoring chain of command and established procedure.
If anything this was less leadership and more hubris.
Top brass cannot go rogue or the military breaks.

But SpeareChucker!! The military is there for the fun and safety of the kids!!

It's a baby sitting service there so people can get FREE healthcare and education.

 

[SpeareChucker]

But SpeareChucker!! The military is there for the fun and safety of the kids!!

It's a baby sitting service there so people can get FREE healthcare and education.

I have to wonder what the Captain would have done
had one of his petty officers had run to foreign
microphone to charge him with putting
the crew in harm's way...



(That's not for you, you and I both know what would happen.)

 

[Botanical11B]

I have to wonder what the Captain would have done
had one of his petty officers had run to foreign
microphone to charge him with putting
the crew in harm's way...



(That's not for you, you and I both know what would happen.)