A small garmmar question

[TarnishedPenny]

A small grammar question

'We' is an subject pronoun, 'us' is an object pronoun. I get that. It's how to interpret that which has me slightly confused.

Two women talking, both of the same age, class, profession, etc. One remarks about a matter of etiquette, much as Henry does in Shakespeare's Henry V: "Such things are not necessary for women such as ____."

Which is correct, please? Us or we or something else?

 

[Sociopathstoryteller]

I'm fairly certain it's "us". If you remove the "women such as," the grammar become more clear. (Not that I'm suggest you remove it.)

Also, "Whom," which is the object form of "Who," is the form that always follows a preposition. So by the same logic, you should use the object form there as well.

 

[TarnishedPenny]

Thank you. I appreciate your time and help.

And before anyone points it out, arrgh! yes, I cannot spell for beans some mornings.

 

[ElectricBlue]

Thank you. I appreciate your time and help.

And before anyone points it out, arrgh! yes, I cannot spell for beans some mornings.

It's the literary equivalent of Big Pharma. Big Garmmar - the Spelling Bee Chapters.

Also, didn't you mean "spilling the beans?" Wait. I didn't know you were from New Zealand. The hills must be awfully hard on your thighs, but getting home would be quicker, it's all downhill. There will also be Ents.

I reckon it's the two of us, not the two of we.

Carry on .

 

[KeithD]

"we." It's a case of finding the right noun to test it on. In this case, it's "women." "We are women," not "Us are women." Fill the phrase out to its fully grammatical length and you can see it: "Women such as we are." Not "Women such as us are."

No, it's not easy, obvious, or uncontested.

It's true that if you remove the "women such as" it would be "us." But the "women such as" hasn't been removed in this case.

 

[SimonDoom]

KeithD is correct. The answer is "we."

The reason is that it's not an object; it's a predicate nominative.

You say "It is I" not "It is me." The reason is that the last word is not an object, it's a predicate nominative, because "is" is a linking verb.

The phrase "women such as we" is shorthand for "women such as we are." The pronoun "we" is a nominative for "women." It's irrelevant that "women" is the object of the preposition "for."

 

[TarnishedPenny]

My head hurts. I very much appreciate both sides - ‘two houses, alike in dignity’. What is clear is that I will get lectured no matter which way the coin lands. I thought grammar (spelled correctly this time) was supposed to make things easier.

 

[SimonDoom]

My head hurts. I very much appreciate both sides - ‘two houses, alike in dignity’. What is clear is that I will get lectured no matter which way the coin lands. I thought grammar (spelled correctly this time) was supposed to make things easier.

Think of it like math (or maths, for those of you in other parts), if that helps. When you have an equation, you solve the parts inside the parentheses first, before the other parts.

In your sentence:

"Such things are not necessary for women such as ____."

"For women such as ___" is a prepositional phrase. "For" is the preposition and "women such as ___" is the object of the preposition.

So it's like this:

Such things are not necessary (for(women such as ____)).

Solve "women such as ___" first.

It's an object of a preposition, but that doesn't mean the pronouns should be in objective case. The phrase must be correct and make sense internally.

Here's a more obvious example:

I made a list of who was going to the party.

"who was going to the party" is the object of "of," a preposition.

Obviously you are not going to write "I made a list of whom was going to the party."

That's because INSIDE the object of the preposition, the pronoun is the subject of a noun-verb clause. Therefore the pronoun must be in subjective case.

In your example, it's more subtle, because the verb is lacking. But as KeithD said, it's implied. The implied full phrase is "women such as we are". And when you look at it that way, "we" is a nominative that restates "women" in pronoun form. It's not an object, and it shouldn't be in objective case.

That's why "we" is appropriate. It actually IS logical.

 

[Sociopathstoryteller]

I defer to the other posters. I have a strong grasp of grammar, but I can tell by reading what they wrote that know more about it then me.

 

[ElectricBlue]

That's why "we" is appropriate. It actually IS logical.

But if it was dialogue, would you ever say it that way? I'm not sure that you would, without sounding like some pompous git (or the Queen of England, but she's allowed).

This is one of those cases where grammatically correct writing is one thing, what you'd say is another. I seem to dodge these dilemmas by avoiding a sentence like the OP's in the first place - it just sounds wrong, even though it's right, so I'd go for a different construction entirely.

Having said that, I've learned more about grammar here than anywhere else - they stopped teaching it in Oz schools in the seventies, so what I know wasn't taught and is often wrong, even though I have an English Lit degree. I couldn't parse a sentence if I tried.

 

[KeithD]

But if it was dialogue, would you ever say it that way? I'm not sure that you would, without sounding like some pompous git (or the Queen of England, but she's allowed).

If the character was educated, probably, yes. I had no trouble knowing which one was right. More trouble knowing why.

You don't just have uneducated characters in your stories, do you? Different characters would use different language, wouldn't they? (e.g., wouldn't you use the "me and you" construction for the barely literate characters and "you and I" for someone who was better educated?)

The "ever" word sort of throws your post out of the ballpark. Not all characters are at the same education level. And some characters are pompous gits (to you, at least).

 

[Misshotndeep]

If the character was educated, probably, yes. I had no trouble knowing which one was right. More trouble knowing why.

You don't just have uneducated characters in your stories, do you? Different characters would use different language, wouldn't they? (e.g., wouldn't you use the "me and you" construction for the barely literate characters and "you and I" for someone who was better educated?)

The "ever" word sort of throws your post out of the ballpark. Not all characters are at the same education level. And some characters are pompous gits (to you, at least).

Deleted by Mod

 

[KeithD]

Deleted by Mod

So, you're just going to follow me around the board to personally attack me now? How long do you think that will be tolerated on the non-GB part of the board? This is the adult part of the board. Just get over yourself.

 

[Misshotndeep]

So, you're just going to follow me around the board to personally attack me now. How long do you think that will be tolerated on the non-GB part of the board? Just get over yourself.

Deleted by Mod

 

[KeithD]

Then if you're not just childishly harassing me, you'll stop this nonsense now, won't you? As I noted, this side of the board is for adults.

 

[Misshotndeep]

Then if you're not just childishly harassing me, you'll stop this nonsense now, won't you? As I noted, this side of the board is for adults.

Deleted by Mod

^^ reporter for abuse of power and favoritism.

 

[RandyD1369]

I would have cheated and said "...for women such as OURSELVES." It may not fit the rhyme or meter of Shakespeare, but it certainly is more comfortable in normal conversation.

PS Miss, I love your image. Just letting you know it's appreciated.---R

 

[SimonDoom]

But if it was dialogue, would you ever say it that way? I'm not sure that you would, without sounding like some pompous git (or the Queen of England, but she's allowed).

This is one of those cases where grammatically correct writing is one thing, what you'd say is another. I seem to dodge these dilemmas by avoiding a sentence like the OP's in the first place - it just sounds wrong, even though it's right, so I'd go for a different construction entirely.

Having said that, I've learned more about grammar here than anywhere else - they stopped teaching it in Oz schools in the seventies, so what I know wasn't taught and is often wrong, even though I have an English Lit degree. I couldn't parse a sentence if I tried.

I can't imagine speaking this line of dialogue, regardless of which pronoun I used at the end. It's formal, flowery language. I wouldn't speak it, and neither would a character in one of my stories.

I don't think "we" is more pompous than "us." I think it's just grammatically correct.

In conversation, I'm probably more apt to say "Hi, it's me" than "Hi, it's I." If I were writing dialogue in a story, I would probably have my character -- even an educated character -- say "me" rather than "I."

The OP was curious about what the right answer was, regardless of the likelihood of using a phrase such as that in narrative or dialogue. KeithD's answer was the right one, even if people often don't speak that way.

 

[SimonDoom]

Deleted by Mod

This isn't appropriate. You can express your disagreement with someone -- even in very strong terms -- without insulting someone or directing obscenity at them.

 

[Misshotndeep]

This isn't appropriate. You can express your disagreement with someone -- even in very strong terms -- without insulting someone or directing obscenity at them.

Deleted by Mod

 

[ElectricBlue]

The "ever" word sort of throws your post out of the ballpark. Not all characters are at the same education level. And some characters are pompous gits (to you, at least).

Fair comment. It just sounds very weird to my ear, and I can't imagine it in speech. I probably move in the wrong circles .

 

[SimonDoom]

I defer to the other posters. I have a strong grasp of grammar, but I can tell by reading what they wrote that know more about it then me.

Interestingly, your sentence above raises a similar issue of objective v. subjective.

Should it be "know more about it than me" or "know more about it than I"?

I tend to think it should be "I." This makes sense because there is an elliptical sentence here, meaning an implied sentence that is missing words. In this it's "I do."

You would say "know more about it than I do", so using "I" is more logical.

But not everyone agrees. There are authorities that say that both "I" AND "me" are correct. To me, that makes no sense, but it seems to be accepted by most authorities.

 

[KeithD]

Should it be "know more about it than me" or "know more about it than I"?

"I"

To figure it out, I always add the missing verb. That almost always clears the issue up immediately.

". . . know more about it than I do."

When I write or edit I add the verb if it's not there. In addition to taking the "which is right?" sting off the issue, I think it sounds less pompous (as EB66 would--and has--put it).

 

[SimonDoom]

"I"

To figure it out, I always add the missing verb. That almost always clears the issue up immediately.

". . . know more about it than I do."

When I write or edit I add the verb if it's not there. In addition to taking the "which is right?" sting off the issue, I think it sounds less pompous (as EB66 would--and has--put it).

I agree 100% that this is the way that is more logical, and it sounds better to me. But I did a little bit of research and the grammar authorities are more ambiguous. Many say that "than me" is acceptable usage because it's been around for so long and in that case "than" is being used as a preposition. That makes no sense at all to me, but Merriam-Webster, for instance, supports that position. I don't know what, if anything, the CMOS says about it.

I do what you do, which is to fill in the missing verbs.

For example:

Clara likes John more than I/me.

Which is it?

The answer depends on what the meaning of the sentence is:

Clara likes John more than I [like John].

But

Clara likes John more than [she likes] me.

 

[KeithD]

Clara likes John more than I [like John].

But

Clara likes John more than [she likes] me.

Which, when I write or edit, becomes:

Clara likes John more than I do.

and

Clara likes John more than she likes me.

Ambiguity gone and the reader reads right through it.