Minimum Wage: Running from the Facts

[KeithD]

I'm sure they wouldn't have had to do that if they'd cut their CEO salaries down to something more reasonable. Can't help it if the businesses can't figure out how to hold their executives' greed in check.

 

[PrincepsCyberius]

Target accidentally proves the case against the $15 minimum wage.

 

[JackLuis]

Wage increases hurt business, but the root of the problem may be in housing prices. Consider how much housing has risen in the last 20-30 years as a percentage of wages. Plus how taxes on real estate have risen, How the cost of a cheap house has risen. Part of that is how much we have lost to inflation. A 2019 dollar is worth less than a 1960's dime!

 

[magicalmoments]

Used to be that a married family man in a working class job, say as a tradesman or a labourer could support his family on a single job working 40 hours a week with maybe a few hours overtime a week.

Doesn't happen anymore. Your ordinary joe has 2 jobs, so does his wife, they're both working 50 hours a week or more and they can't make ends meet. The world changing.

 

[DawnONight]

Used to be that a married family man in a working class job, say as a tradesman or a labourer could support his family on a single job working 40 hours a week with maybe a few hours overtime a week.

Doesn't happen anymore. Your ordinary joe has 2 jobs, so does his wife, they're both working 50 hours a week or more and they can't make ends meet. The world changing.

I take it that you just make this stuff up, because data from the BLS indicates just the opposite.

About 5% of Americans hold more than one job, and this rate has held relatively constant since 2010. Yet there are now 1.3 million fewer Americans working part-time for economic reasons than at the end of the Obama Presidency.

A tighter job market is also pushing up wages....​

A Tale of Two Economies: Trump’s policies are helping workers more than Obama’s did, WSJ (Jul. 4, 2019) (emphasis added).

I don't think 5% of the workforce translates into "your ordinary joe [sic]."

.

​

 

[PrincepsCyberius]

I take it that you just make this stuff up, because data from the BLS indicates just the opposite.

About 5% of Americans hold more than one job, and this rate has held relatively constant since 2010. Yet there are now 1.3 million fewer Americans working part-time for economic reasons than at the end of the Obama Presidency.

A tighter job market is also pushing up wages....​

A Tale of Two Economies: Trump’s policies are helping workers more than Obama’s did, WSJ (Jul. 4, 2019) (emphasis added).

I don't think 5% of the workforce translates into "your ordinary joe [sic]."

.

​

Thank you for posting that. Magicalmoments seems to have no answer to you having caught him in a complete fabrication.

I doubt he will have one for this either:

Target Slashes Employees’ Hours After Raising Its Minimum Wage to $15 An Hour.

 

[magicalmoments]

Damn! Just goes to show you should not rely on anecdotal observations when making claims.
Oh well, let's just follow trumps lead. Given it was said kiddingly, just to give you chickie babes something to fact check, we don't have to get all hung up on it just because you anal retentive conservative fascists can't take a joke.

 

[DawnONight]

Damn! Just goes to show you should not rely on anecdotal observations when making claims.
Oh well, let's just follow trumps lead. Given it was said kiddingly, just to give you chickie babes something to fact check, we don't have to get all hung up on it just because you anal retentive conservative fascists can't take a joke.

Triggered much?

You weren't joking. You got caught in a falsehood, albeit one you probably believed until you saw the data.

From now on, stick to the data. It's what I do and why I always win these debates.

 

[BotanyBoy]

Damn! Just goes to show you should not rely on anecdotal observations when making claims.
Oh well, let's just follow trumps lead. Given it was said kiddingly, just to give you chickie babes something to fact check, we don't have to get all hung up on it just because you anal retentive conservative fascists can't take a joke.

US Conservatives are classical English Liberals, not fascist.

 

[BotanyBoy]

Used to be that a married family man in a working class job, say as a tradesman or a labourer could support his family on a single job working 40 hours a week with maybe a few hours overtime a week.

Doesn't happen anymore. Your ordinary joe has 2 jobs, so does his wife, they're both working 50 hours a week or more and they can't make ends meet. The world changing.

Economies change man.....'learn to code' is the saying??

Main concept is the same as it ever was though and every bit as effective, get a skill, hustle it.

I got working class professional friends who are crying about how much work they're still turning down despite expanding at a concerning pace.

Electricians, plumbers, lawn care, the porta-shitter/septic tank dude, oil field workers, pipe fitters, welders, truck drivers....I know people in all these fields that live very comfortable middle class lives because they work hard and aren't retarded with their money.

 

[dan_c00000]

Racist dawn running from the facts again:

July in Trump’s Economy: Real Wages Fell, Consumer Prices Rose, More Workers Laid Off

 

[DawnONight]

Racist dawn running from the facts again:

July in Trump’s Economy: Real Wages Fell, Consumer Prices Rose, More Workers Laid Off

Thank you, dan_c00000, for your humorous predictability. You reach back to July for one headline, when the more recent facts belie your point, as even CNN admits.

Amid signs that the global economy is slowing, America's labor market nonetheless remains strong.

In September, the unemployment rate fell to 3.5%, the lowest rate since December 1969, as employers added 136,000 jobs to the US economy. There were many signs of strength, including robust hiring in health care, transportation, professional services and state and local government.​

A. Tappe, US unemployment drops to lowest since 1969, CNN (Oct. 4, 2019). Of course, there has been a slight slowdown in job growth, due in large part to the fact that there simply are not enough qualified workers out there to hire. That also leads to this observation:

“The unemployment rate usually rises ahead of a recession, so a fresh decline pushes out the timeline for any potential recession into late 2020 at the earliest,” said Josh Wright, chief economist at iCIMS in New York.

Meanwhile, the not-too-hot, not-too-cold numbers spurred fresh talk of a “Goldilocks” economy — in which the Federal Reserve might cut interest rates again before year’s end.

Fed Chair Jerome Powell reiterated on Friday that the economy was “in a good place,” adding that “our job is to keep it there as long as possible.”​

A. Seigrad, US unemployment rate falls to five-decade low of 3.5%, New York Post (Oct. 4, 2019).

Lastly, I should point out that your argument has nothing to do with this thread, which is about the minimum wage. Another swing-and-a-miss for you, desperate dan_c00000.

 

[dan_c00000]

Let make use some racist "facts".

Sorry dawn. I keep telling you I'm not going to read your racist "facts". As I've been saying Trump lied about helping the middle class. He's done very little for them, and less for minorities.

Sorry racist dawn but you just got owned hard. Try using something that isn't so racist and anti-Semitic next time. Oh and while you're at it stop with the pro-rape posts. It's rather creepy.

 

[My I]

The Fight for 15 has proven a real boon to some of us living in Columbus, Ohio. The engineering team at a large fast food brand has been on an automation tear for months now. Contracting with robotics integrators to upgrade their stores, installing robots to cook and prep the food. In turn, the market for integrators is seeing high demand, and as a result great pay days.

Why is a fast food giant moving from people to machines You don''t have to pay robots... Or computer kiosks... They never call in sick. Never threaten to unionize. They never turn up on YouTube washing their feet or their junk in the kitchen... And a couple of service techs can support multiple restaurants!

At $7.00, the cost of automation won't base the cost-benefit test. But at $15.00 an hour, it makes fiscal sense to bring in the robots. And just a minimum effort spent researching to drive to automate fast food will show that others are already on the automation wagon as well.

Now, what do you suppose will happen to the jobs of all those people demanding $15.00 an hour to flip burgers and shack fries into a paper sleeve once the robots and kiosks are on line?

I've installed about 40 of those kiosks in Columbus and other areas of Ohio. I laugh my ass of every time I do.

Liberal/Progressives are so fucking stupid, you can't help but laugh at them. I first started hearing about raising min wage about 6 yrs ago and I started asking people why they thought it was a great idea. The most intelligent response I got was, "I'd be making TWICE what I am now. I could live well on that kind of money." Mostly I got, "Everybody would have more money, you idiot."

Really? That's all the farther you thought it through? Didn't bother to look at the economic impact from any other point of view? Didn't take into consideration where the money COMES FROM to pay that new Min Wage? Fast food joints would have to nearly DOUBLE their prices. Your gasoline goes up 60%. Your groceries go up 60%. And everything you buy retail goes up.

But it doesn't stop there. Noooooo.... You started a snowball that will turn into an avalanche like you never saw before. Because when all those prices go up, the people on min wage aren't the only ones feeling the crunch. EVERYONE does. And EVERYONE is going to be demanding higher pay so they can afford to simply MAINTAIN the lifestyle they've EARNED.

That means, your utilities go up. The cost of a new car goes up, which also drives up the cost of used cars. Every manufactured product you buy will go up in price. Not just once. MULTIPLE times. Because the Miners who get iron ore and coal out of the ground will want more. That drives up the cost of steel. Higher steel costs drives up the cost of everything made from it and THEIR employees are demanding better wages.

In the end $15/hr won't buy what $7/hr did before and that's if you are one of the lucky few that didn't get replaced by a machine.

So a big round of applause to the FUCKING MORONS who thought of this. You deserve to live in a cardboard box eating from Mickey D's dumpsters. You did it to yourselves. And now that you are seeing the fruits of your BRILLIANT FUCKING PLAN, you refuse to acknowledge or even believe you could POSSIBLY be wrong. That kind of stupidity deserves a AWARD.

Bravo!

 

[phrodeau]

So poor people will earn more. Those in debt will be able to pay them off sooner. Those who have to put off purchases will be able to make them.

Meanwhile, rich people will have to pay more. What a damned pity.

 

[magicalmoments]

# 64 above
Absolute arrant nonsense. It's the claptrap rolled out by fucking stupid conservatives every time the call for an increase in minimum wage starts making them feel uncomfortable.
I live in a country where we have a minimum wage set by law. It is currently set at about the equivalent of $12 US. The law also requires that the minimum wage be reviewed annually against inflation, cost of living increases etc and be increased to maintain an equilibrium.
So... According to #64 our country should be severely afflicted with all sorts of directly related increases in prices and charges across all sectors of the economy.
It hasn't happened.
The free market smooths it out. Any trader who increases prices to maintain his profit level is undercut by the trader down the road who carries the cost. The greedy trader quickly goes back to being competitive. And this happens across all sectors. There is never a sudden increase in the cost of cars after a minimum wage increase, never. Petroleum prices never increase after a minimum wage increase, the price is set internationally by the oil producing countries with occasional local increases when the govt adjusts it's sales tax take, certainly not affected by increases in minimum wage.
I'd like to know where the projected 60% increase in all retail comes from, where the economic logic originates. I suspect it is just made up shit.

 

[My I]

So poor people will earn more. Those in debt will be able to pay them off sooner. Those who have to put off purchases will be able to make them.

Meanwhile, rich people will have to pay more. What a damned pity.

Just how fucking stupid are you? Really. I'm dying to know. Are you really totally brainless? Dumber than a 10 pound bag of air? 'Cause if it's just an act you deserve a Oscar.

 

[My I]

# 64 above
Absolute arrant nonsense. It's the claptrap rolled out by fucking stupid conservatives every time the call for an increase in minimum wage starts making them feel uncomfortable.
I live in a country where we have a minimum wage set by law. It is currently set at about the equivalent of $12 US. The law also requires that the minimum wage be reviewed annually against inflation, cost of living increases etc and be increased to maintain an equilibrium.
So... According to #64 our country should be severely afflicted with all sorts of directly related increases in prices and charges across all sectors of the economy.
It hasn't happened.
The free market smooths it out. Any trader who increases prices to maintain his profit level is undercut by the trader down the road who carries the cost. The greedy trader quickly goes back to being competitive. And this happens across all sectors. There is never a sudden increase in the cost of cars after a minimum wage increase, never. Petroleum prices never increase after a minimum wage increase, the price is set internationally by the oil producing countries with occasional local increases when the govt adjusts it's sales tax take, certainly not affected by increases in minimum wage.
I'd like to know where the projected 60% increase in all retail comes from, where the economic logic originates. I suspect it is just made up shit.

And this is why you don't have any idea what you're talking about. When was the last time your government raised the minimum wage in your country by 60%?

Never. You obviously don't have any idea what happens to an economy when you do something like that. Why do you even post on US politics? You don't live here. You don't know how things work here and yet you want to play yourself up as some sort of certified expert on us politics and economics.

You know nothing.

Petroleum prices per barrel don't go up but prices at the pump DO. Why? Because they have to PAY THEIR EMPLOYEES.

Edit: BTW: YOUR min wage is set to go up by $1.20/hr soon. Keep a close watch on your prices and give us all an "Expert" report.

 

[someoneyouknow]

Wage increases hurt business/QUOTE]

The $15 minimum wage was supposed to hurt New York City restaurants — but both revenue and employment are up

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/the-15-minimum-wage-was-supposed-to-hurt-new-york-city-restaurants-but-both-revenue-and-employment-are-up-2019-10-28

 

[magicalmoments]

#68 above.
As long as you yanks tout yourselves as leaders of the free world, which title I accept is slipping from your grasp, I'll feel free to comment on the fucked up job you seem to be making of it.
It is true that my comments are aimed at a free market economy, it's possible that in your now controlled economy things may not work the same in the USA as they do here.
I don't think our country is stupid enough to let the minimum wage fall so far behind the cost of living. But then, our citizens are treated as citizens, not commodities to be bought and sold at a whim.
Read any economics 101 text and you'll see I'm right, talk to any businessperson who has realistic handle on their overheads. An increase, even if 60%, in one area of overhead does not translate to a u60% increase of total costs. For instance let's say it cost $3 for a cup of coffee, if minimum wage goes up 60% the same cup of coffee will not go up by 60% to $4.80. Any coffee seller that does that will find his sales going downhill fast, and the same applies to all commodities.
I was interested to read that international changes in the cost of a barrel of oil does not affect the price at the pump in the USA!? Wow! I guess fuel costs in the USA are subsidised by the govt. if that's the case then it's more evidence of the USA economy turning to a controlled economy. Not a good look for the so called leader of the free world.

 

[My I]

Wow! I guess fuel costs in the USA ....

And there in lies your problem.

 

[magicalmoments]

#71 above.
Guessing is not a problem for me. If my guess is out in happy to be corrected.
In the absence of a refutation I guess I was right.

 

[Lolita_Slut]

Preach

Trust me. I do a lot of volunteer work in the inner city. It is middle-class arrogance to think "low wage" workers would value an opportunity "to rest/recreate" at the cost of "lost wages." They are doing their best just to make rent and pay their bills. Even ten or twenty dollars less a week is a great burden to their tight budgets.

Can they "make money some other way"? Maybe, but that adds all sorts of complications in terms of transportation, child care, etc. Please don't try to impose your middle-class values on people for whom you apparently have little understanding or concern.

SAY IT AGAIN FOR THE PEOPLE IN THE BACK

 

[DawnONight]

Sorry dawn. I keep telling you I'm not going to read your racist "facts". As I've been saying Trump lied about helping the middle class. He's done very little for them, and less for minorities....

Wrong, as usual, desperate dan_c00000. As I've established repeatedly elsewhere:

.​

Earlier thread.

Meanwhile:

The unemployment rate for Hispanics, 3.9 percent in September, has never been this low. The unemployment rate for blacks remained at the record low of 5.5 percent set in August.​

S. Jones, Record Number of Employed in September; 3.5% Unemployment Rate Best Since 1969, CNS (Oct. 4, 2019).

You and magicalmoments obviously both attended the "Just-Make-Stuff-Up School of Rhetoric":

Wow! I guess fuel costs in the USA....

And there in lies your problem.

That's not the first time magicalmoments has been caught just making stuff up to try to support his uninformed opinions.

Trust me. I do a lot of volunteer work in the inner city. It is middle-class arrogance to think "low wage" workers would value an opportunity "to rest/recreate" at the cost of "lost wages." They are doing their best just to make rent and pay their bills. Even ten or twenty dollars less a week is a great burden to their tight budgets.

Can they "make money some other way"? Maybe, but that adds all sorts of complications in terms of transportation, child care, etc. Please don't try to impose your middle-class values on people for whom you apparently have little understanding or concern.

SAY IT AGAIN FOR THE PEOPLE IN THE BACK

Thank you!

*Takes a bow.*

 

[astuffedshirt_perv]

I first started hearing about raising min wage about 6 yrs ago and I started asking people why they thought it was a great idea...Mostly I got, "Everybody would have more money, you idiot."

To split a rhetorical hair, this is the correct assessment, as you yourself point out:

In the end $15/hr won't buy what $7/hr did before and that's if you are one of the lucky few that didn't get replaced by a machine

In short, inflation, which is a very good thing indeed for those of us with fixed. long term debt like mortgages and student loans, but perhaps not so good for others like young people.