Minimum Wage: Running from the Facts

[BotanyBoy]

#99 above
How have I demonstrated I am a "hysterical hater of freedom."

*edited for simplicity*

What the Minimum Wage law really says:

If a potential employee isn't worth the hourly rates specified by the government, it is unlawful for that employee to be employed in the United States.

Your response was this....

If a potential employer can't manage his business and his overheads to the extent that he can't afford to pay his employees minimum wage then he should think about throwing in the towel and becoming an employee himself.

Now let's take that down to it's most base message and you get "If two consenting adults don't want to make the exchanges the government tells them to make, they shouldn't be making exchanges." right???.....which at it's core, is a rather clear cut anti-freedom pro-authority stance.

This it totally at odds with my self perception and what I attempt to convey in my posts on here.

The hysterical part, that was a bit hyperbolic and jabby, sorry, I should do better than that.

As for the freedom hater??

What you attempt to convey and self perception? IDK man...what is it you think of as being "Free"?? Maybe that's where I'm not seeing it.

Because I don't think of or see government setting wages for private industry as a free thing so naturally I don't see people who support government controlling wages in the private markets as being on the pro freedom side of this argument.

I think in a free society the only wages the government sets should be those of government workers.

 

[colddiesel]

I think that there is a case for a minimum wage. It needs to be set sufficiently above any government unemployment benefit to minimize poverty, but fairly well below average wages to make sure these people continue to seek (better paid) work.

When wages are set so low that the earners are still entitled to various government benefits that is a real problem. Most advocates propose minimums which are so high that they destroy jobs.

Once a minimum wage is in place it also makes a bunch of non- minimum wage earners feel good about themselves.

A secondary effect of minimum wages in countries like Japan and Australia is that tipping has become exceedingly rare once folk know that the waiter, cabbie etc has a reasonable minimum wage.

 

[Rightguide]

I think that there is a case for a minimum wage. It needs to be set sufficiently above any government unemployment benefit to minimize poverty, but fairly well below average wages to make sure these people continue to seek (better paid) work.

When wages are set so low that the earners are still entitled to various government benefits that is a real problem. Most advocates propose minimums which are so high that they destroy jobs.

Once a minimum wage is in place it also makes a bunch of non- minimum wage earners feel good about themselves.

A secondary effect of minimum wages in countries like Japan and Australia is that tipping has become exceedingly rare once folk know that the waiter, cabbie etc has a reasonable minimum wage.

In a free society if two people enter into an economic agreement that satisfies both, how is it the business of the federal government, possibly thousands of miles distant, to step in and nullify the agreement?

 

[Fuzzy1975]

Because I don't think of or see government setting wages for private industry as a free thing so naturally I don't see people who support government controlling wages in the private markets as being on the pro freedom side of this argument.
.

So you see no value in the Government setting a minimum wage value?
You would rather corporations decide?

 

[Rightguide]

So you see no value in the Government setting a minimum wage value?
You would rather corporations decide?

The market should decide, not the government.

 

[Fuzzy1975]

The market should decide, not the government.

So you would rather go back to the 1800's economics models then, when that was the case?

We ( Canada) had quite a few minimum wage increase's in 2019.

Below is the estimated job loss's link from the Bank of Canada due to those increase's ( some wage increase's were quite large).

https://globalnews.ca/news/3944598/60000-jobs-lost-minimum-wage-increase/

Below is the link of Employment in Canada as of November 2019.

https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/daily-quotidien/191206/dq191206a-eng.htm

You might want to compare them. Just food for thought.

 

[magicalmoments]

# 101 above
Apology accepted.
But you still haven't answered my question.
I was not advocating minimum wage, simply expressing an opinion that employers who haven't got the ability to manage their overheads, in an environment where minimum wage is a fact shouldn't be in business and should get a real job instead.

 

[magicalmoments]

The market should decide, not the government.

I would agree in the trading market for goods, commodities and services. The market should be the sole arbiter, the govt should not become involved with tarrifs or subsidies, whether national or international. Unfortunately there are very few countries left where the free market is left to its own devices.

However I regard the labour market as being different. People are not commodities, or goods or services. They are citizens, they are stakeholders in any business that employs them. Any negotiation over their remuneration should be productivity driven, related to the true profits that they generate. Also, if the business fails then they carry the loss along with the employer.
There should be no need for govt intervention.

However, in our corporate world the reality is not ideal, people are seen as commodities, employers will do everything to maximise profits and will rip off everyone to do so. Customers, suppliers, workers. Greed is good, power should be used for the good of those who hold it.

This is not a free market. Read Adam smith, his classic treatise, 'the wealth of nations' has yet to be surpassed.

 

[BotanyBoy]

# 101 above
Apology accepted.
But you still haven't answered my question.

Actually I did but you're not accepting it based on the idea that you now were not advocating minimum wage by shit talking those who avoid/criticize it.

I was not advocating minimum wage

So then why the nasty opinion that employers who don't want to pay it ought to not be in business?

, simply expressing an opinion that employers who haven't got the ability to manage their overheads, in an environment where minimum wage is a fact shouldn't be in business and should get a real job instead.

Exactly....you have a low opinion of those who don't comply with your beloved state telling people how to run their shit.

 

[BotanyBoy]

So you see no value in the Government setting a minimum wage value?

Value? Maybe.....if it's appropriate for each economic bubble. But not freedom.

You would rather corporations decide?

Being the staunch supporter of liberty that I am, yes, 100% corporations should decide how much they want to pay their employees.

 

[Fuzzy1975]

Value? Maybe.....if it's appropriate for each economic bubble. But not freedom.



Being the staunch supporter of liberty that I am, yes, 100% corporations should decide how much they want to pay their employees.

Are you not playing both sides of the coin?

I will say I am in favour of the government setting the bottom minimum. Period end of story. After that let the economy decide.

Remember a corporations only loyalty is to the share holder. Profits rule.

 

[Rightguide]

So you would rather go back to the 1800's economics models then, when that was the case?



You might want to compare them. Just food for thought.

No thanks, I have a fairly good education in economics and have read the works of every major economist in the modern era and several not so modern but ageless just the same. I personally own many of those works as well.

In America we believe in the free market. We do not believe in command order economic schemes. We know the free market is the best engine for the allocation of resources ever devised by Man. We know that everywhere it has been employed Marxist solutions to economic problems always fail. We also know that over regulation of the market drains the vitality of the market.

So I ask again, if two people in a free society enter into a benign economic agreement between themselves and both parties are happy with the outcome, what is the interest of the government to declare it illegal, other than to simply control individuals and extinguish their liberty?

 

[Fuzzy1975]

So I ask again, if two people in a free society enter into a benign economic agreement between themselves and both parties are happy with the outcome

I have no issue with the above, it is a contract. Which is what am employed under. My employer and I negotiated the compensation, benefit package,holidays even the terms under which it can be terminated. It is legally binding between the myself and the corporation.

However most employees do not have a contract. They are employed in what is termed a Labour Market. They trade their time and efforts pursuing their employers efforts. In exchange the employer compensates them financially for their time and effort.

The above is not a contract. It allows for discrimination, unfair treatment, economic pressure, etc etc, all the evils of the pre-industrial times.

I have no problem with the Government setting the bottom wage. After all what use is a Government, if it can't look out for the best interest of it's citizens.

Corporations are not people, they only have one loyalty, and that is to the share holder. A corporation will liquidate employee's in a heartbeat to increase profits.

I hold no loyalty to a corporation, which is why I have a contract.

 

[BotanyBoy]

Are you not playing both sides of the coin?

No I'm recognizing the difference between freedom and value.

They aren't the same thing.

I will say I am in favour of the government setting the bottom minimum. Period end of story. After that let the economy decide.

For the USA I could get behind a local minimum wage.

But not a destructive and inconsiderate national one for the sake of leftist virtue signaling.

Remember a corporations only loyalty is to the share holder. Profits rule.

Yea....and??

Remember a consumers only loyalty is to their own bank account....getting the best deal they can.

 

[Fuzzy1975]

For the USA I could get behind a local minimum wage.

But not a destructive and inconsiderate national one for the sake of leftist virtue signaling.

I disagree with the term leftist, but am in complete agreement with the rest.

 

[Rightguide]

Corporations are not people, they only have one loyalty, and that is to the share holder. A corporation will liquidate employee's in a heartbeat to increase profits.

I hold no loyalty to a corporation, which is why I have a contract.

Actually, corporations are simply a group of people, but people just the same.

The fact is, if the government sets a minimum wage of say $10.00 per hour it means anyone who cannot produce skills and abilities worth $10.00 per hour, is illegal to employ and cannot find work without breaking the law, a law that absolutely discriminates against their class of skill sets.

 

[Fuzzy1975]

Yea....and??

Remember a consumers only loyalty is to their own bank account....getting the best deal they can.

Prior to retiring in 2013, I ran my own company. You might be surprised to see how many consumers would hire me, over the competition, even though I was never the cheapest one out there.

In general most people want the best deal they can get, the smart ones often know the cheapest price out there, is not always the best deal.

 

[Fuzzy1975]

Actually, corporations are simply a group of people, but people just the same.

Who's loyalty is to the share holder, no one else, not the employees not the country of incorporation, government,environment, nothing....(when it is a for profit type corporation).

The fact is, if the government sets a minimum wage of say $10.00 per hour it means anyone who cannot produce skills and abilities worth $10.00 per hour, is illegal to employ and cannot find work without breaking the law, a law that absolutely discriminates against their class of skill sets.

Where do you come up with this type of logic? I can't even figure out how to wrap my head around it? Define what $10.00/hr skill set or ability is?

Lets try it this way. Every person lives time identically.

My hour is as long as your hour. My day is as long as your day.

So If I agree to give someone an hour of my time in exchange for my service, or you give that same person an hour of you time in exchange for your service. That person gets the same time of service from both of us.

Minimum wage simply stipulates what the hour of time is worth, nothing more or less.

It has nothing to do with production rates, abilities, skill sets, education etc etc.

It is the absolute minimum amount of money an employer can pay another person for one hour of their time.

 

[BotanyBoy]

I disagree with the term leftist, but am in complete agreement with the rest.

So what do you call people who support government control over the economy in the pursuit of social/economic equity?

Because the rest of the planet calls them leftist.

Corporations are not people

I'm a corporation......my dad and sister are both corporations.

Corporations are people, some individuals some groups, but the bottom line either way is that no people = no corporation.

Prior to retiring in 2013, I ran my own company. You might be surprised to see how many consumers would hire me, over the competition, even though I was never the cheapest one out there.

But they are getting SOMETHING, some value for that extra cost aren't they???

Be it superior labor, customer service, product quality, availability....whatever.....consumers want value for their dollar.

If you provide the value, you get the dollars.

This is why surgeons get more dollars the door greeters at Wal Mart.

Surgeons provide a lot more value than the door greeters.

In general most people want the best deal they can get, the smart ones often know the cheapest price out there, is not always the best deal.

100%...

 

[BotanyBoy]

Who's loyalty is to the share holder, no one else, not the employees not the country of incorporation, government,environment, nothing....(when it is a for profit type corporation).

You keep making that same "no shit Sherlock" statement.....so what??

What do you think a business should be loyal to??

Minimum wage simply stipulates what the hour of time is worth, nothing more or less.

Arbitrarily, regardless of what the individual is worth per hr, yes.

It has nothing to do with production rates, abilities, skill sets, education etc etc.

And thus the problem.

What if an employee skills/production are only worth 6.50 an hr and not the 7.25 the government forces people to pay? That's a loss....so no job for 6.50/hr.

 

[Fuzzy1975]

I'm a corporation......my dad and sister are both corporations.

Ummm no you are the only/majority shareholder, but you are not "the corporation".

Corporations are people, some individuals some groups, but the bottom line either way is that no people = no corporation.

I am missing the point of what you are trying to make there. A corporation is a "a legal person". Which is owned and controlled by the shareholders. But a shareholder, is not "the corporation".

This is why surgeons get more dollars the door greeters at Wal Mart.

Surgeons provide a lot more value than the door greeters.

I would hope so....

 

[BotanyBoy]

Ummm no you are the only/majority shareholder, but you are not "the corporation".

The difference being?? A pile of paper.....

In every real sense, practical and effective sense I am the corporation, shareholders are the corporation.

A corporation is a "a legal person". Which is owned and controlled by the shareholders. But a shareholder, is not "the corporation".

And what are shareholders??? People....

I am missing the point of what you are trying to make there.

That corporations, are people. People doing business.

Not some nebulous boogie man out to oppress people.

 

[Fuzzy1975]

You keep making that same "no shit Sherlock" statement.....so what??

What do you think a business should be loyal to??

A business ( sole proprietorship, or partnership are also business) can be loyal to whomever, a corporation is only loyal to the shareholders. That is both the benefit, and the problem. Everything you promote revolves around one thing, "competition". However if there is no competition, then what?

Assume only one supplier of internet access? They could charge whatever they want to access the web. According to your logic, you would be happy to let them charge whatever they want, with no Government controls?

Anyhow the above is off topic to minimum wage. I am just pointing out, in some area's of the economy there is a role for Government. I think one of those areas is in setting the bottom wage level.

 

[Fuzzy1975]

That corporations, are people. People doing business.

Most are small scale yes, some though are not.

Not some nebulous boogie man out to oppress people.

Can you say Union Carbide, I think you can....

I can list hundreds of corporations who put profit ahead of human lives, where Government then had to come in and clean up the mess they made. Meaning you the tax payer are helping to pay for their mess. Think about it.

 

[BotanyBoy]

A business ( sole proprietorship, or partnership are also business) can be loyal to whomever, a corporation is only loyal to the shareholders. That is both the benefit, and the problem.

Why is that the problem??

What exactly is problematic about that??

Everything you promote revolves around one thing, "competition". However if there is no competition, then what?

Then you make money, expand and establish before the competition shows up and starts undercutting your shit.

Assume only one supplier of internet access? They could charge whatever they want to access the web. According to your logic, you would be happy to let them charge whatever they want, with no Government controls?

100%....why should the government control internet access??

Without government control it's just a matter of time before another ISP shows up and makes an offer, at which point I'll decide to either stay or switch.

Anyhow the above is off topic to minimum wage. I am just pointing out, in some area's of the economy there is a role for Government. I think one of those areas is in setting the bottom wage level.

I agree we do need government.

But I don't think setting wages outside of government work is one of them.

Most are small scale yes, some though are not.

Scale has nothing to do with it.

There isn't a single active corporation on the face of the planet that isn't owned/operated by people.

Can you say Union Carbide, I think you can....

I can list hundreds of corporations who put profit ahead of human lives, where Government then had to come in and clean up the mess they made. Meaning you the tax payer are helping to pay for their mess. Think about it.

Yea...just like with people, if corporations are harming/threatening people etc. the government has to go fuck them up to keep social order.

This is not a damn bit different than if you an individual put your own interest ahead of human lives.