The American Way of Life

[gunthernehmen]

When you have a welfare system in place there are always going to be some who try to cheat it, no question.
However, in the same boat when you have a taxation system there are always those who try to cheat it. I don't know how it is in the USA but those who don't pay there fair share of tax, including deadbeat dads who don't pay child support, are generally a greater drain on a countries economy than those who improperly claim welfare.

I can't speak for others, but the only rampant tax cheats that I have personal knowledge of are people that are on public assistance and also work "under the table".

We spend just over a trillion dollars a year on welfare programs (national level - that doesn't include state or local). Child support obligations (not the deadbeats - TOTAL come to about $34 billion a year. Various easy to find sources claim welfare abuse (here anyway) is pervasive. If every dad owing child support never paid a dime it would not even dent welfare spending, waste and abuse.

 

[magicalmoments]

Warren and Sanders political platforms

1. Medicare for all/ dismantling 18% of our economy
We have free hospital care for all, been that way since 1935, and assorted assistance for doctors and dentist visits.
2. Eliminate all college debt.
College debt must be repaid.
3. Free child care
Means tested assistance for under 5's childcare.
4. Free tuition.
Means tested student allowance for the poor only.
5. Open borders/free healthcare and tuition for illegals.
Closed borders, although there is limited visa free entry for nations we trade with.
6. 75% tax structure for the rich/ 500,000 and over/ wealth distribution.
Graduated income tax, top rate is 33% for all income over $70K. However we also have 15% goods and services tax (VAT) added to all transactions.
7. Paid leave.
4 weeks paid leave for all workers. Plus 11 days paid public holidays, Xmas day, Easter, Memorial Day, national day, Labor Day, queens birthday etc.
8. Reparations.
We never had slavery but there is a process whereby our Maori people can sue the govt for reparations for illegally seized land and other acts of discrimination in our colonial past.
9. Eliminate the electoral college .
Never had the electoral college. All elected political positions are on the basis of public vote alone. Our head of state is queen Elizabeth II.
10. Minimum wage $15/PH
Minimum wage in NZ is about the equivalent of US$12
11. Ban fracking.
Fracking allowed
12. Ban on assault style weapons
Assault weapons banned, strong gun control laws, yet we have one of the highest gun/citizens ratios in the world.
12. No limit abortions.
No limit abortions.
13. Repeal statute on illegal entry.
Illegal entry remains illegal.
14. No wall funding.
No wall! Thousands of miles of ocean. But our nearest neighbors are the Australians, at least you don't have that worry!
15. Slash defense spending
Our defence spending is very low, we have a small navy mainly involved with fishery protection, small airforce, a few helicopters and Hercules, no fighters, and our soldiers take turns with the rifle.
16. Break up tech companies
Not here. Free market economy, although we do have statutes controlling monopolies.
17. Felons allowed to vote while incarcerated.
No votes for jailbirds, although there is a stringent lobby for changing this.
18. Closing all nuclear power plants/Sanders
No nuclear here. We have a law banning it. All electricity generation is renewable. One coal powered generator that is used when demand exceeds supply, very rare.
19. Increase capital gains tax.
No capital gains tax.

My responses typed in under each of your listed items just to give an indication/comparison with NZ.

 

[DawnONight]

Pursuit of Happiness

Couple Thoughts on the thread above.

1. Pursuit of Happiness. This isn't a right. It's not an enumerated right in the Constitution. It's a phrase in the Declaration of Independence, and while historically, important, it's not a governing document we use.

It's been a few decades since I had Business Law in college, but I believe the Declaration of Independance is what courts and lawyers call "persuasive authority." It is not as controlling as legal precedent, but still "a governing document we use."

2. Pursuit of Happiness. It not a guarantee of Happiness. It confers no obligations on behalf of society. In fact, it obligates the individual to act in their own self-interest...within the laws of the land....

I agree. It does not confer obligations on "society." My happiness is no one else's obligation. It does, however, establish an obligation on government not to do anything that unreasonably or unnecessarily interferes with me pursuing the life I want to lead. As such, it is the basis for civil liberties.

Jefferson borrowed the concept from John Locke, who in his famous Two Treatises on Government (1690) described a person's property, i.e., what belongs to him or her, as "life, liberty, and estate." Less than a year earlier, however, Locke had published An Essay Concerning Human Understanding in which he wrote: "The necessity of pursuing happiness [is] the foundation of liberty."

In other words, except as absolutely necessary to keep the peace and secure property and safety, the government should not be telling people how to live their lives.

 

[dan_c00000]

Warren and Sanders political platforms

1. Medicare for all/ dismantling 18% of our economy
2. Eliminate all college debt
3. Free child care
4. Free tuition
5. Open borders/free healthcare and tuition for illegals
6. 75% tax structure for the rich/ 500,000 and over/ wealth distribution
7. Paid leave
8. Reparations
9. Eliminate the electoral college
10. Minimum wage $15/PH
11. Ban fracking
12. Ban on assault style weapons
12. No limit abortions
13. Repeal statute on illegal entry
14. No wall funding
15. Slash defense spending
16. Break up tech companies
17. Felons allowed to vote while incarcerated
18. Closing all nuclear power plants/Sanders
19. Increase capital gains tax

Looks like a lot of Government intrusion/ what's left?

No it doesn't. It looks like a lot of what will help the average person. Meanwhile Treason Trump is destroying the economy with his losing trade war against China.

 

[BotanyBoy]

I was wondering how long it would be before your chimed in with your arrant, prejudiced nonsense. Have you been on holiday?

It's not prejudiced nonsense, but an informed opinon.

Fascism has been responsible for as many deaths as socialism ever has been. Yet this doctrine, or at least elements of it are embraced by many in your country.

Not even close. The Soviet Union alone killed twice as many as fascisms collective body count.

Elements of it yes, because the USA was founded on the right wing ideology and values of classical English liberalism. Our government was founded and designed to enhance and protect individual liberty of it's citizens.

Not oppress people collectively for the sake of equity, which is the fundamental function of socialism.

I disagree entirely with your misinformed and closed minded opinion that those countries that have embraced elements of socialism, generally described as social democratic, have lost their individual liberties and freedoms. That is demonstrably untrue. My own country, which is a capitalist free market economy, social democracy, routinely appears ahead of the USA in independently assessed international surveys of individual liberty and freedom.

You in your country have a semi-free marlet economy.

There is nothing misinformed or close minded about stating the facts.

And the facts are you don't have the basics.

You have neither free speech nor freedom of armament in your country....that makes you subjects of your state, not free people.

It is patently absurd to claim that citizens of social democracies have given up their freedom of speech or that the choice is between freedom and being "well kept" whatever that means.

You don't have free speech in NZ, nor does the UK, France, any of the nordic nations or Germany. Like most every nation, if you say something politically incorrect you run the risk of being prosecuted under the law.

What's absurd about the fact that you can can't be both well kept and free at the same time??

Can you name one government service or regulation that doesn't restrict individual freedom in any way shape or form?? Good luck.

If you're happy living in an environment ruled by arrogant nonsense and closed minds. Go for it. I prefer tolerance and open debate.

I'm happy living in a free society.

If you consider individual freedom/liberty "arrogant nonsense and closed minds" then what do you consider open mindedness??

"Fair share", that could be a long debate. I'd define it as whatever has been decided by those elected in a representative democracy that has regular free elections with universal franchise.

So if we vote to only tax black people....you'd consider that fair hua???

Maybe tax women at a higher rate? Hey if it passes a simple majority vote it's fair right??

Wow....

I disagree, I don't think winning a vote makes anything inherently fair.

I think democracy can get sideways very quickly without some rules, checks and balances against it.

In my opinion those that unlawfully cheat on their legal obligations are a greater threat to freedom than those who cheat on welfare payouts.

I agree and so do the vast majority, that's why tax evasion is illegal.

This however is different from using the rules to avoid paying more than necessary. Playing the game to pay the least amount of taxes possible is just good practice.

 

[gunthernehmen]

It's been a few decades since I had Business Law in college, but I believe the Declaration of Independance is what courts and lawyers call "persuasive authority." It is not as controlling as legal precedent, but still "a governing document we use."

Not to quibble...but....

If there isn't a legal precedent...it's not a governing document we use. Laws, precedents, rights and gov't obligations are based in the constitution.

The Declaration of Independence is just a bunch of guys giving a super cool middle finger to England.

And then they used guns, modern sporting rifles, weapons of war, and military-grade firearms to kick their ass. These were owned by individuals....and that's what makes this the greatest fucking country...ever!

It acknowledged that when the government ceases to fulfill it's obligations then the people have the right to replace it. It doesn't need to be tested in court. It just "is".

 

[magicalmoments]

#32 above.
Your observation that in my country does not have freedom of speech surprised. Here I am, having lived, studied and worked here for all of my life and I never realised this. I would be grateful if you could cite the source of this information?
While you're looking this up I'll give you my understanding of freedom of speech in my country. Firstly the right is enshrined in our constitutional statutes, it is reaffirmed in court decisions and in common law.
There are limitations, these are restricted to what is commonly called "hate speech" and inciting violence. I can be sued if I make untruthful derogatory comments about someone. Other than that I can go stand on my soap box and spout my truths whether these be politically correct or not. If I want to espouse facism or communism or any thing in between I can. If I make an impression the media may pick up my story, or I can publish online or buy space in print and tv media. I can contact my elected representative and give them the benefit of my opinion and tell them what is wrong with theirs. I have never, ever been aware of any restriction on my freedom of expression.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_of_Freedom_in_the_World

The other point I take issue with is your puzzling assertion that NZ is a semi free market economy.
Prior to 1984 we were a fully controlled socialist economy and it bankrupted us. Over the next 10 years our economy was turned around and we became a capitalist free market economy. The process went further than thatcher did in the uk and Reagan in the USA. There are some restrictions around criminal "money laundering" and some consumer protection legislation and controls to limit insider trading and cartel type commercial activities but these would be common to most modern western countries.
I would like to hear what would cause you to think we were anything other than a fully free market economy.

https://ceoworld.biz/2019/01/28/the-worlds-freest-economies-2019/

 

[DawnONight]

#32 above.
Your observation that in my country does not have freedom of speech surprised. Here I am, having lived, studied and worked here for all of my life and I never realised this. I would be grateful if you could cite the source of this information?
While you're looking this up I'll give you my understanding of freedom of speech in my country. Firstly the right is enshrined in our constitutional statutes, it is reaffirmed in court decisions and in common law.
There are limitations, these are restricted to what is commonly called "hate speech" and inciting violence. I can be sued if I make untruthful derogatory comments about someone. Other than that I can go stand on my soap box and spout my truths whether these be politically correct or not. If I want to espouse facism or communism or any thing in between I can. If I make an impression the media may pick up my story, or I can publish online or buy space in print and tv media. I can contact my elected representative and give them the benefit of my opinion and tell them what is wrong with theirs. I have never, ever been aware of any restriction on my freedom of expression.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_of_Freedom_in_the_World

The other point I take issue with is your puzzling assertion that NZ is a semi free market economy.
Prior to 1984 we were a fully controlled socialist economy and it bankrupted us. Over the next 10 years our economy was turned around and we became a capitalist free market economy. The process went further than thatcher did in the uk and Reagan in the USA. There are some restrictions around criminal "money laundering" and some consumer protection legislation and controls to limit insider trading and cartel type commercial activities but these would be common to most modern western countries.
I would like to hear what would cause you to think we were anything other than a fully free market economy.

https://ceoworld.biz/2019/01/28/the-worlds-freest-economies-2019/

Thank you for that information. It is very interesting and inspiring.

I cannot and won't debate the findings of Index of Freedom in the World you cite. It may well be accurate (albeit a bit out of date, at least when it comes to Hong Kong). Assuming the Index is accurate, I simply find it sad that the USA, the first country to fully institutionalize such freedoms (first in 1789, more fully by 1865), isn't at the top of the list. We have lost so much of the freedom we once enjoyed.

I do find one thing in your post surprising. You recently wrote this:

I have never understood this fear that yanks have of socialism....

Now you write: "Prior to 1984 we were a fully controlled socialist economy and it bankrupted us" (emphasis added).

I've read the rest of that earlier post. I'm thrilled that New Zealand has fixed its economy through free market capitalism. Now, why would the USA want to first go bankrupt to learn the same lesson?

 

[BotanyBoy]

There are limitations, these are restricted to what is commonly called "hate speech" and inciting violence.

Hate speech doesn't exist, it's a nebulus term used to justify speech censorship.

Like the UK when they arrest/prosicute commedians for offensive jokes.

Or in NZ when you share information that offends people.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/21/world/asia/new-zealand-attacks-social-media.html

The other point I take issue with is your puzzling assertion that NZ is a semi free market economy.

I would like to hear what would cause you to think we were anything other than a fully free market economy.

Does your government not control the exchange of goods and services through regulation and licencing?

If you have to get permission, you're not free.

Prior to 1984 we were a fully controlled socialist economy and it bankrupted us.

Ya don't say!!! Imagine that, people don't want to be slaves to a totalitarian god state....who would have thought.

 

[magicalmoments]

#37 above
hate speech does exist, the example you give over the Christchurch massacre being a first class example. Our opinions on that one topic clearly differ, but I'm happy to live here where such restrictions are in place than I am to live in a country where it is not. As far as I'm concerned anyone in NZ who believes that restriction limits their freedom unfairly can fuck off to USA where such freedom is valued. I don't know what your uk examples are but I have to say I'm surprised.

There are situations where our govt controls the exchange of goods and services by regulation and licensing. Doctors, lawyers, accountants, electricians, nurses, plumbers and gas fitters, pharmacists, (there may be other occupations) are all controlled by regulation and licensing. No individual can just set up business in these occupations. Perhaps this doesn't happen in the USA. If not I can see how you're slipping into shithole territory. There are also rules/licensing about importing drugs and firearms and explosives. There are regulation and licensing around the sale of alcohol and firearms. But in the greater consumer world there are no restrictions in trading in goods and services.

 

[magicalmoments]

There is no question that socialism is a proven failed system. Any country that turns fully socialist will eventually go bankrupt. However, I continue to be amazed that yanks can't seem to grasp that social policies which might naturally be regarded as "Socialist" in origin can be incorporated into a fundamentally capitalist free market economy without destroying it.
You don't need to go full blown socialist, you don't need secret police, you don't need gulags, you don't need to confiscate private property, you don't need to have state control of the means of production, distribution and exchange.
Again, use my own country as an example. In 1935 our country voted in a socialist govt. thhis was in response to the Great Depression. People were ready for a redistribution of wealth. This new govt started nationalising a lot of key industries, took control of banking and foreign exchange rates, they took control of importing and exporting, they introduced a cradle to the grave social welfare and free health/hospital treatment. They also took control of radio broadcasting but not newspapers. They continued with regular elections, they allowed freedom of speech and they stayed in power throughout WWII and through to 1950. When they lost power to a capitalist Conservative party, but nothing changed. The new govt kept all of the changes the socialist had put in place and even extended the states control. They even removed freedom of speech to trade unions. This continued through to 1984 when they put a freeze on price increases and wage negotiations and had increased our national debt to the point we were effectively bankrupt as a country. In 1984 a social Democratic Party was elected with a massive majority. They spent the next 6 years undertaking a massive restructuring of the country. They sold off all the state owned assets, railways, airline, energy production and distribution, the post office, the telecom systems, broadcasting, they floated our currency, they freed up importing and exporting, removed tarrifs, removed subsidies and protections for local industries, they totally restructured local authorities they modernised our constitutional legislation, they refined the tax system, they introduced laws that prevented politicians from fiddling with currency management. They also retained our free health system and key elements of our welfare system including unemployment, single parent and retirement benefits. They retained annual holidays for all workers, they introduced paid maternity and parental leave. They started reparations hearings for our Maori people who had land stolen from them in our colonial past.
This caused massive disruption to the country and they were voted out. The replacement govt continued with the changes, freeing up the labour market, which had been controlled by trade unions, membership of which was compulsory. Massive changes that bedded in the capitalist free market economy that we lead the world with today, several places ahead of the USA, especially considering the changes introduced by trump.
Coming back to the point, we made that massive turn around, at huge cost to our society at large, but we "cherry picked" those bits of our socialist past that served our people well, we modernised them, made them operate on a commercial basis but as industries they are owned by the people. As a country we do not feel threatened that retaining those few elements is going to domino into full blown socialism.
Many other countries mirror this approach. It works. It is not a horror story. Cherry picking elements will not result in any country becoming bankrupt, provided you structure them correctly, along capitalist lines, with legislative support.

 

[gunthernehmen]

I'm happy to live here where such restrictions are in place than I am to live in a country where it is not.

Just understand that those restrictions are not making you safer, they're just making you FEEL that way.

Since your chances of making it through your entire life without dying in a mass murder approach 100% whether you live in NZ, UK or US, that'll probably work out well for you.

I prefer freedom / free will.

 

[magicalmoments]

#40 above
Well... I think we're doing ok. We've had only 3 mass murders in the last 100 years.
Our police go about their routine patrolling duties without sidearms.
I feel pretty free and safe.

 

[BotanyBoy]

#37 above
hate speech does exist, the example you give over the Christchurch massacre being a first class example. Our opinions on that one topic clearly differ, but I'm happy to live here where such restrictions are in place than I am to live in a country where it is not. As far as I'm concerned anyone in NZ who believes that restriction limits their freedom unfairly can fuck off to USA where such freedom is valued.

Which is fine, I'm glad you're happy with it, but censored speech is not free speech.

I don't know what your uk examples are but I have to say I'm surprised.

Count Dankula.....prosecuted for a joke.

https://www.independent.co.uk/voice...peech-comedy-joke-iran-offended-a8270631.html

Really? I'm not shocked at all.

That's exactly how "hate speech" laws work.

They are there to censor speech that ins't politically correct.

There are situations where our govt controls the exchange of goods and services by regulation and licensing. No individual can just set up business in these occupations.

So you're a mixed economy like most.

Not a free market economy.

Perhaps this doesn't happen in the USA.

Some regs are federal but largely it depends on the state.

If not I can see how you're slipping into shithole territory.

The most regulated ones like California are the ones slipping into shithole territory.

Socialism lite isn't working very well either. They've run their working/middle class out of the state, working on chasing their big companies off too.

Our (D)'z consider such things "progress" but most of the country just thinks they are fucking retarded.

But in the greater consumer world there are no restrictions in trading in goods and services.

Maybe, but I bet if you looked you'd find a lot more than you thought.

 

[DawnONight]

#40 above
Well... I think we're doing ok. We've had only 3 mass murders in the last 100 years.
Our police go about their routine patrolling duties without sidearms.
I feel pretty free and safe.

Your society is different from ours. At this point in our history, any disarming of the public would only benefit criminals, who would ignore any governmental effort to confiscate firearms. It would leave law abiding citizens defenseless against armed criminals. This would disproportionately affect the urban poor, >95% of whom are law abiding citizens who, due to historical circumstances, live in some of our most violently crime ridden neighborhoods. The police cannot be everywhere, and such people need weapons for self-defense against the extreme criminal elements in their neighborhoods.

 

[gunthernehmen]

#40 above
Well... I think we're doing ok. We've had only 3 mass murders in the last 100 years.
Our police go about their routine patrolling duties without sidearms.
I feel pretty free and safe.

Right. You feel free and safe.

You aren't either one of those, but you feel that way.

There's nothing wrong with that.

There's also nothing wrong with me choosing to be responsible for my own safety and life in a relatively free society.

 

[magicalmoments]

How do you celebrate your birthday if it occurs on 9/11 ?

With a rousing game of Jenga!

 

[gunthernehmen]

How do you celebrate your birthday if it occurs on 9/11 ?

With a rousing game of Jenga!

Probably one of the more vile things I've read here. Most people just fling a racial slur or something. Not like you're mocking the deaths of thousands of people, or anything...

Look, nobody is forcing you to accept the "American Way of Life". You live someplace else and you seem to be happy there. So good on you. Seriously. I'm glad you're happy.

Just like I'm happy (for the most part) with how things are HERE.

 

[magicalmoments]

Just exercising my freedom of expression.
Don't be such a snowflake!

 

[gunthernehmen]

Just exercising my freedom of expression.
Don't be such a snowflake!

Not being a snowflake. Do you see me screaming in frustration at the sky?

Just observing your callousness.

Perhaps you were offended by my thoughtless remarks about NZ's recent mass murder? Oh, sorry. That never happened (that is to say, I didn't make any remarks about it).

I have no idea why you care SO much that somebody that lives thousands of miles away from you should share your views on how things ought to be. The amount of time I spend focused on NZ politics is...

 

[magicalmoments]

You seem to think that my joke as aimed at you personally. Paranoid or what?
Snowflakes don't scream at the sky, they fall to the ground where they melt down, you can see it happening with trump.
Well I'm pleased ho have opened your mind a little by encouraging you to think about a country other than your own, if only for 3 dots.

 

[gunthernehmen]

You seem to think that my joke as aimed at you personally. Paranoid or what?
Snowflakes don't scream at the sky, they fall to the ground where they melt down, you can see it happening with trump.
Well I'm pleased ho have opened your mind a little by encouraging you to think about a country other than your own, if only for 3 dots.

I know you watched the 2016 election where Hillary list, so you definitely saw the snowflakes screaming in despair.

As for the world, I've been to much of it and find America far more comfortable. Haven't been to NZ though. But I'm more interested in going back to Ireland some summer. I would never get used to toilets swirling the wrong direction...

Liking where I am is natural, just like you liking where you are is natural. It's a shame that you don't understand that.

 

[magicalmoments]

Actually the USA 2016 election was not covered on NZ tv, other than being reported on our daily news bulletins. I will admit to being surprised at the result. I saw Clinton as being the better of two incredibly bad choices, even though I believe she and her husband are despicable human beings. But even so the trump fuck fest has been so much fun to watch, as I've said in other posts, the best reality TV show in town.
I take your point about having a special feeling about your home nation, I do understand. Like you I've travelled widely through Europe and Asia mostly but have also been to the USA. Spent some time in New York City. Loved every minute of it. Not so sure I'd find small town America to my taste though. But overall I've yet to find a place I prefer more than NZ. Incidentally, seems that a lot of your countrymen think the same, increasing numbers of yanks, including at least one from trumps inner circle have purchased "bolt hole" properties here.
I will be sticking with my definition of snowflake however.

 

[gunthernehmen]

Actually the USA 2016 election was not covered on NZ tv, other than being reported on our daily news bulletins. I will admit to being surprised at the result. I saw Clinton as being the better of two incredibly bad choices, even though I believe she and her husband are despicable human beings. But even so the trump fuck fest has been so much fun to watch, as I've said in other posts, the best reality TV show in town.
I take your point about having a special feeling about your home nation, I do understand. Like you I've travelled widely through Europe and Asia mostly but have also been to the USA. Spent some time in New York City. Loved every minute of it. Not so sure I'd find small town America to my taste though. But overall I've yet to find a place I prefer more than NZ. Incidentally, seems that a lot of your countrymen think the same, increasing numbers of yanks, including at least one from trumps inner circle have purchased "bolt hole" properties here.
I will be sticking with my definition of snowflake however.

How dare your media not pay attention to our country!

The "fuckfest" is amusing, but you can easily find the election reaction videos on youtube. The screams of despair and anguish are not literary artifacts on my part. Note that although the right was deeply disappointed (and did not hide the fact) when Obama was elected twice, there were no crying fests, histrionics of various sorts from us. There is a fundamental difference in the psychological makeup of a leftie vs a rightie. And both sides think the other is fundamentally wrong. Sadly for the left, the right is right (implicit in the nickname). Note I said left and right, not Dem or Rep. Both parties are corrupt to the core.

As for bolt holes, who doesn't have a second property, paid off and off the books as an insurance policy?

 

[DawnONight]