Disaster in the Making

[Rightguide]

Trump repaid them by sending Turkey satellite recon images of Kurdish positions and withdrawing American troops.

No, we paid them with millions upon millions of dollars and mountains of military equipment and munitions, plus our own blood. Trump also said he would destroy Turkey's economy if they tried to wipe out the Kurds.

 

[bellisarius]

Russians would have loved that, no doubt, but you shouldn't forget that they aren't the only ones suffering from paranoia.

The rush to EU and NATO wasn't anything very wanted by those organizations, but rather reluctantly acceptance of afraid beggars on their doorstep. Coming with some mild geopolitical benefits, no doubt. It's one of main disconnections here, and one that Russian propaganda relentlessly promotes for both domestic and abroad use, that it was some aggressive expansionist designs of, yeah, basically of Americans. Nope. We manipulated all the leverage we had to get it done as fast as possible, ourselves.

It also wouldn't be good because of how poor we were/are. We switched over from being about the richest province in USSR to the very poorest members of the EU and we needed that opportunity, as devastating the blessing of EU markets is.

The finality of no way back was very important, locally, and for the relationship with the Russia too. Without that they would forever see the lost provinces as a temporal arrangement, heck, they do anyway. And make no mistake, ambition of restorationists goes at least as far as Warshaw Pact borders was, plus the "slavic brothers Serbs" and their interests, if possible. It's all "our lands." Russians are working hard to undermine EU for that very goals.

Also, there's not enough commonality across the nations in question to justify such artificial arrangement, not across all of them, at least.

A block within block, or even across blocks might be possible, though.

Latvians, Lithuanians and exterminated Old Prussians (their lands forever host-less, taken as spoils of war by latest winners) speak Baltic languages. Poles, Ukrainians and Belarusians are Slavs, tied in by historical events. Latvia and Estonia are foster sisters by sharing mostly same history for a millennia, but Estonia and Finland are ethnic brothers with close languages. Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and western Ukraine share traditional way of life, based on independent, maximally self-sufficient freestanding homesteads, NOT organized into villages. Russians have different culture based on closely knit village, that's where the crazy ideas of collectivization come from. Belarusians and Poles are somewhat in between, but the real deep pre-christan roots are common for all aforementioned (and possibly parts of Germany and beyond) although Baltic people and Russians can be easily drawn in flame war over nuances of that. Latvia and Estonia share cultural similarities with Germany, forced by crusaders of thirteen century settling there as landlords and ruling class for seven centuries; it is it's own love/hate dynamic that seemingly have nothing to do with the mainland Germany. Sweden didn't have serfdom, and greatly eased it there, before Russians restored the German landlord rights.

Further south... sure it could have been Latvians, Courlanders to be accurate, who stormed citadel gates of Turkish held Buda in 1686 under the nose of Sarı Süleyman Paşa relief army, but they were just war-servants recruited by German landlord under Polish command. And that battle wasn't making friends anyway.

European politics are every bit as complicated as the Mid-East.

I understand the stampede and the reasons for it. That would have been the time to encourage those nations to start speaking to one another. It all may have been for naught, but that was the time and that time has passed.

Spot on as far as restoration of the Warsaw Pact. Leave nothing but the Fulda Gap as an invasion route. That would be Putin's dream come true.

Very right all that.

Also Kurds are in current alliance with Assad whom both USA and Turkey want gone, but Russians and Iran back.

I wonder right now about two things now. One, would there be any difficulties between Russians who control Syria's airspace actually and Turkey, especially if they try to push deeper than declared either directly or by forces of the Syrian "rebels" they are sending in.

Two, how long it will take until there's major Kurdish uprising within the Turkey itself? There was a major crackdown on them not too long ago as much I remember, and I think they toned it down to be good partners in the anti-ISIS coalition, but if this will go on, what's the chances?

On longer term, I do not believe it would ever be easy to reduce their autonomy within Iraq, especially if efforts to rebuild Syria within current borders will fail. Then Iran... with whole region ablaze and the combat experience they have I doubt anything is out for certain. It wouldn't be soon, easy or pretty, but that's the only thing granted in that region.

Here's the problem with the Kurd's and the support of same. A commitment to the Kurd's would be an open ended commitment. Perpetual with no end in sight. No where have I read anyone that has proposed how an endgame to such a commitment would play out. That being the case at some point in time the US would no longer be seen as "Liberators" but as an occupying force and they'd turn on us as well. Is that the endgame, we wait around until they turn on us then leave?

 

[Aglaopheme]

Welp...


https://www.newsweek.com/us-troops-syria-turkey-1464727?amp=1&__twitter_impression=true

A contingent of U.S. Special Forces was caught up in Turkish shelling against U.S.-backed Kurdish positions in northern Syria, days after President Donald Trump told his Turkish counterpart he would withdraw U.S. troops from certain positions in the area. A senior Pentagon official said shelling by the Turkish forces was so heavy that the U.S. personnel considered firing back in self-defense.

 

[jaF0]

And now .....


Trump’s About-Face on Kurds Puts Israel in Quandary

President Donald Trump’s abandonment of the United States’ Kurdish allies to a Turkish military onslaught is giving Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu second thoughts about the reliability of his friend in the White House.
AP

 

[Emerson40]

Welp...


https://www.newsweek.com/us-troops-syria-turkey-1464727?amp=1&__twitter_impression=true

It would appear Turkey is not reading The Donald’s presidential tweets.

 

[suurfer]

With Americans on the ground in the harms way, Turkey wouldn't ever move.
It would be insane, even for them.

Pulling Americans out was a prerequisite for the operation to be executed, in the first place.

Americans had no need to do a thing, fight against or for anyone, just be there, and this wouldn't be happening. It's war of Gods over there. Russians could, and still can do the same, just move in, and Turkey will be forced to stop, because those two wouldn't fire at each other either.

Re the bolded part:

Adding to your comments: the fact that both Turkey and the US are both NATO members.
This part (attacking another NATO co-member) would have been self-sabotaging too.

I'm starting to think that people are right to be pissed off with the retraction of troops.

 

[suurfer]

The Heat: Turkey launches military offense against Syrian Kurds Pt2
from min. 13.55:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFqlaSYxfO4


"Edmond Ghareeb, Middle East scholar and analyst:

Ghareeb: This should have not come as a surprise. ...[
Most significantly, the meeting between president Erdogan and president Trump at the UN general assembly was very significant, although there were different reportings on it, whether Trump or Erdogan or not they wed on the same page.

Interviewer: But he must have been told what Turkey's intentions were.
Ghareeb: Exactly. There was a signal.

Ghareeb: More significantly, about a week ago, there was an article in a couple of American papas, where a US official was qoted: "The storm is brewing in NE Syria. We may be forced to withdraw, we may not have the forces to withstand the Turkish forces, and therefore this may not be work the way some people think.
So there were a numbe of signals there."

In saying that, it depends on how the conversation between Trump and Erdogan went.
Was Erdogan dead set on it (with or without you there, we'll attack) or sort of tentative?

 

[bigsly]

Welp...


https://www.newsweek.com/us-troops-syria-turkey-1464727?amp=1&__twitter_impression=true

Good thing you intentionally omitted the headline, better to serve your intentionally disingenuous purpose:

Exclusive: Turkey Attacks US Special Forces in Syria, Apparently by Mistake

(my bold)

Mistakes, indeed even fatal friendly fire, are common in matters of warfare. Shit naturally happens when shit starts to fly (blame Nature). What's particularly telling about this specific instance is that the few US troops under fire stayed in position throughout the shelling (meaning they didn't feel the need to get the hell out of Dodge, meaning the shelling wasn't that directly threatening), and that there are no reports of a single injury. It's called no harm, no foul among allies, and the same has been accorded to the American-allied Kurds when they've mistakenly attacked US troops, and when America has done the same to them and other allies.

Perhaps you can go find a new "whistleblower" that'll endorse your implication that Turkey intentionally attacked American troops with the go-ahead of Trump, earning him another impeachable charge of treason according to your repugnantly partisan court of wannabe law?

Btw: any word on how that Turk "genocide" of "Kurds" is going?

 

[RobDownSouth]

Trump sent Turkey's Erdogan a strongly worded message this morning, warning of dire economic consequences if Turkey kept up its behavior...

Erdogan responded to Trump's message tonight, shelling a known, declared US military outpost AND the largest Christian settlement in northern Syria tonight.

Remember, the Trump administration gave Erdogan the coordinates of EVERYTHING in northern Syria. Erdogan is using our OWN intel against us.


But Icanhelpque, Botanyboy and beew will continue to insist that everything is fine here.

 

[Aglaopheme]

President Donald Trump says acting Homeland Security Secretary Kevin McAleenan is stepping down.

According to the AP

Just plopped it here because there’s too many dominos falling.

 

[Dribble]

President Donald Trump says acting Homeland Security Secretary Kevin McAleenan is stepping down.

According to the AP

Just plopped it here because there’s too many dominos falling.

Only 4 in 3 years...next one will be 5. Lol.

 

[Aglaopheme]

Only 4 in 3 years...next one will be 5. Lol.

But, the next one will be the best! Only the best!

 

[Klinkster]

President Donald Trump says acting Homeland Security Secretary Kevin McAleenan is stepping down.

According to the AP

Just plopped it here because there’s too many dominos falling.

Sounds like you have little experience with corporate dealings.
Sometimes, you don't get the right person. Sometimes, it takes a few tries to get the right person. I've seen it. One place I worked years ago, we had 5 different CEO's, in 5 years. A couple of those were downright haywire in my opinion.
Guess what.....the fifth one....was a keeper.

Hit & miss. Unfortunately, that's how it works. Politics, I don't think is any different.

So....'too many dominos falling?'
Matter of opinion, and conjecture on your part.

 

[DeluxAuto]

Sounds like you have little experience with corporate dealings.
Sometimes, you don't get the right person. Sometimes, it takes a few tries to get the right person. I've seen it. One place I worked years ago, we had 5 different CEO's, in 5 years. A couple of those were downright haywire in my opinion.
Guess what.....the fifth one....was a keeper.

Hit & miss. Unfortunately, that's how it works. Politics, I don't think is any different.

So....'too many dominos falling?'
Matter of opinion, and conjecture on your part.

You must be exhausted from all of the mental gymnastics you go through to protect your adoration for Trump.

 

[Klinkster]

You must be exhausted from all of the mental gymnastics you go through to protect your adoration for Trump.

You miss my point, entirely.
I am telling you history, and how things work in the corporate world.
I can tell you more of other companies I know of, I worked for as a contractor. Some I know, as friends of mine worked for them.

Again, sometimes you hit a good fit for a job the first shot.
Sometimes you don't.
And if you don't, and you don't fix it, well, whaddya think happens?
Best to get the bad one outa there, and replace him.

 

[DeluxAuto]

You miss my point, entirely.
I am telling you history, and how things work in the corporate world.
I can tell you more of other companies I know of, I worked for as a contractor. Some I know, as friends of mine worked for them.

Again, sometimes you hit a good fit for a job the first shot.
Sometimes you don't.
And if you don't, and you don't fix it, well, whaddya think happens?
Best to get the bad one outa there, and replace him.

Cool story, bro but Trump has either fired a lot of his appointees and another lot quit on him. If he ran the country like he did his businesses..... Oh, he is

 

[Aglaopheme]

These are not even up to date but scroll away.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lis...esignations#Executive_Office_of_the_President

https://www.cnn.com/interactive/2017/08/politics/trump-admin-departures-trnd/

 

[Klinkster]

Cool story, bro but Trump has either fired a lot of his appointees and another lot quit on him. If he ran the country like he did his businesses..... Oh, he is

And he is a billionaire....so.....what is your point?
(Other than you don't like him)

And in my opinion, it's about damn time someone ran the country like a business.
A SUCCESSFUL business.

 

[DeluxAuto]

And he is a billionaire....so.....what is your point?
(Other than you don't like him)

And in my opinion, it's about damn time someone ran the country like a business.
A SUCCESSFUL business.

Like Bill Clinton did

 

[Klinkster]

Like Bill Clinton did

Again.....what is your point?
What is wrong with replacing people who are not working out?

Is there one of those people, you think should not have been replaced?

 

[DeluxAuto]

Again.....what is your point?
What is wrong with replacing people who are not working out?

Is there one of those people, you think should not have been replaced?

Bolton could have done anything he wanted under Trump he left. What's that indicate to you?

 

[Klinkster]

Bolton could have done anything he wanted under Trump she he left. What she's that indicate to you?

Not talkin' about Bolton. Talking about the Homeland Security Chief....or chiefs.

Please try and stay on topic, since you chose to spit out the topic.

Do you think it is it better to keep someone incompetent?

 

[bigsly]

President Donald Trump says acting Homeland Security Secretary Kevin McAleenan is stepping down.

According to the AP

Just plopped it here because there’s too many dominos falling.

Before Trump named him as acting Secretary just six months or so ago, McAlleenan was a career federal government lawyer, and a registered Democrat who contributed thousands of dollars to Democratic political campaigns only, including Hillary's and Obama's. Despite full well knowing McAlleenan's political bias, Trump gave him the chance anyway.

Last week or the week before, I read McAlleenan contradicting the President on treatment of illegal aliens and it struck me really strange: first, if it was me and I disagreed so blatantly with my boss on such a fundamental issue, I'd simply quit on principle; second, I wondered how the guy could even imagine keeping his job after such an overt move.

Like all federal appointments in the Executive branch, McAlleenan served under the total pleasure of the President. Obviously, Trump did him a principled favor dismissing him.

 

[DeluxAuto]

Not talkin' about Bolton. Talking about the Homeland Security Chief....or chiefs.

Please try and stay on topic, since you chose to spit out the topic.

Do you think it is it better to keep someone incompetent?

We went off topic and started talking about his revolving door of a staff. Sucks that you can't multitask, you would be fired

 

[Klinkster]

We went off topic and started talking about his revolving door of a staff. Sucks that you can't multitask, you would be fired

We are on DHS staff.....that's what you brought up....that's what I am talking about.
You seem to be unable to answer any question I ask.
Deflection?
Incapable?
Don't wanna?