An interesting moral dilemma

[oggbashan]

I am dying of lung cancer but still so far relatively fit and active.

But I will not live long.

Any legal punishment is pointless. I wouldn't live long enough to be tried in court.

What if I was to decide to perform a public service by killing the town's most prolific criminal who targets old people in the street and breaks into their houses? He is out on bail awaiting trial for his latest session of attacks and has caused misery to hundreds and their families. Everyone knows that bail conditions will not stop his activities.

I could run him down with my car, or stab him with a kitchen knife. If he were killed the town's criminal statistics would be reduced by 50% at least.

What would stop me? Apart from my own conscience?

PS. If I were to be put in jail on remand they would still have to treat me for the cancer, and the medics would come to me instead of me making appointments to go to hospital.

 

[KeithD]

The grief and turmoil it would cause your loved ones you're leaving behind. Assume you have loved ones you're be leaving behind. Why leave them with extra baggage?

 

[oggbashan]

The grief and turmoil it would cause your loved ones you're leaving behind. Assume you have loved ones you're be leaving behind. Why leave them with extra baggage?

But I would have saved misery for hundreds.

 

[KeithD]

But I would have saved misery for hundreds.

You asked and I answered. Playing God not long before meeting God (maybe) doesn't sound like the best plan to me.

 

[Vix_Giovanni]

I am dying of lung cancer but still so far relatively fit and active.

But I will not live long.

Any legal punishment is pointless. I wouldn't live long enough to be tried in court.

What if I was to decide to perform a public service by killing the town's most prolific criminal who targets old people in the street and breaks into their houses? He is out on bail awaiting trial for his latest session of attacks and has caused misery to hundreds and their families. Everyone knows that bail conditions will not stop his activities.

I could run him down with my car, or stab him with a kitchen knife. If he were killed the town's criminal statistics would be reduced by 50% at least.

What would stop me? Apart from my own conscience?

Civil claims. You may be gone from the world but your estate wouldn’t be. Criminal acts are torts at common and civic code laws, and tort damages can be claimed by the injured parties even when you’re gone. Taking the law into your own hands for public good is no defense; it’s actually grounds for reckless endangerment damages.

But I’ve had similar real-life discussion/considerations. My mom has idiopathic pulmonary fibrosis. There’s a handful of people in the world that have it and it’s invariably and quickly terminal. She was diagnosed as having, at best, two to six months to live, if lucky. That diagnosis was before my, quickly rushed, wedding four years ago. She’s somehow still here, and thus being studied by Cornell Weill and the Mayo Clinic as to “how the MF way is she possibly alive”. There’s many things she contemplated doing after getting an expiration date that she now thanks God she didn’t do.

 

[oggbashan]

You asked and I answered. Playing God not long before meeting God (maybe) doesn't sound like the best plan to me.

I am very unlikely to do anything, but when you know you haven't got long to live, the question arises of how far human laws are still appropriate.

 

[SimonDoom]

I am dying of lung cancer but still so far relatively fit and active.

But I will not live long.

Any legal punishment is pointless. I wouldn't live long enough to be tried in court.

What if I was to decide to perform a public service by killing the town's most prolific criminal who targets old people in the street and breaks into their houses? He is out on bail awaiting trial for his latest session of attacks and has caused misery to hundreds and their families. Everyone knows that bail conditions will not stop his activities.

I could run him down with my car, or stab him with a kitchen knife. If he were killed the town's criminal statistics would be reduced by 50% at least.

What would stop me? Apart from my own conscience?

PS. If I were to be put in jail on remand they would still have to treat me for the cancer, and the medics would come to me instead of me making appointments to go to hospital.

I don't know if you are serious or not, but I would not recommend doing this.

This person may be a horrible person. He may have caused misery for many people. But murder is not a just or appropriate response to theft, regardless how many thefts there are. There is a system for dealing with people like this person. Sometimes the system doesn't work, but it's better if we adopt a system and follow it than for us to turn to vigilantism.

Imagine you are advising another person in a similar situation, not yourself. What do you advise? Probably not this.

 

[oggbashan]

I don't know if you are serious or not, but I would not recommend doing this.

This person may be a horrible person. He may have caused misery for many people. But murder is not a just or appropriate response to theft, regardless how many thefts there are. There is a system for dealing with people like this person. Sometimes the system doesn't work, but it's better if we adopt a system and follow it than for us to turn to vigilantism.

Imagine you are advising another person in a similar situation, not yourself. What do you advise? Probably not this.

The system doesn't work. He has been in and out of jail for the past fifteen years. When he is in jail the street thefts and burglaries virtually stop; when he is out they rise dramatically again. He has been convicted of several hundred offences but he is soon out on the streets again.

If we had three strikes and you're out he would spend the rest of his life in jail.

I'm not going to do it but I know other people, not dying, have considered it because of the distress he has caused to their elderly relations.

 

[Javahead]

The system doesn't work. He has been in and out of jail for the past fifteen years. When he is in jail the street thefts and burglaries virtually stop; when he is out they rise dramatically again. He has been convicted of several hundred offences but he is soon out on the streets again.

If we had three strikes and you're out he would spend the rest of his life in jail.

I'm not going to do it but I know other people, not dying, have considered it because of the distress he has caused to their elderly relations.

I can see the temptation - and quite honestly, in your shoes, might feel it myself.

It reminds me slightly of the Ken McElroy case in Missouri - he was known as the town bully, and had committed dozens of crimes. Shot dead in front of a crowd of people by at least two assailants. Nobody admitted to seeing a thing...

 

[Vix_Giovanni]

I just asked the SO. He made an extraordinarily important point. You would also put yourself in the legacy of the criminal’s criminal activity, such that the trustee of the criminal’s estate (which would no doubt be overrun by those injured from the criminal’s acts) would now have recourse against your estate for what you did to the criminal. The trustee, given the claims against the criminal’s estate, would have a legal obligation to bring a civil claim against your estate (because of your premeditated murder) in its attempt to maximize recovery for criminal’s claimants.

So, not just civil claims against you but also the probable likelihood of literally paying for the criminal’s crimes should stop you.

 

[Voboy]

The legal problems are compelling, and other posters have made them eloquently. Those alone would prevent me from going vigilante; I don’t want to leave my family in debt.

But morally? I think you’d absolutely be justified. Especially if you dress up in a Batman costume first. And I’m not even kidding. Discuss the ramifications with your family first.

Man, Ogg, there must be all sorts of these kinds of thoughts running through your head these days. I’m glad you’ve got a sounding board.

 

[Hypoxia]

You can't be blatant, now that you've announced your intent. Be subtle. A tragic accident could occur. A loosened stair-step; nicked brake-fluid line; timely rolling boulder, Mini, or fuel drum; rabid bat or rat in the WC; fentanyl slopped into his alcopop. All sorts of mishaps could befall with none to blame but the careless deceased. Swatting is available in the States; is that an option in UK?

No, I do not recommend attempted murder. It may fail, and then you're stuck.

 

[oggbashan]

I just asked the SO. He made an extraordinarily important point. You would also put yourself in the legacy of the criminal’s criminal activity, such that the trustee of the criminal’s estate (which would no doubt be overrun by those injured from the criminal’s acts) would now have recourse against your estate for what you did to the criminal. The trustee, given the claims against the criminal’s estate, would have a legal obligation to bring a civil claim against your estate (because of your premeditated murder) in its attempt to maximize recovery for criminal’s claimants.

So, not just civil claims against you but also the probable likelihood of literally paying for the criminal’s crimes should stop you.

That is unlikely in Uk Law. My estate might get a reward for avoiding future losses.

 

[oggbashan]

You can't be blatant, now that you've announced your intent. Be subtle. A tragic accident could occur. A loosened stair-step; nicked brake-fluid line; timely rolling boulder, Mini, or fuel drum; rabid bat or rat in the WC; fentanyl slopped into his alcopop. All sorts of mishaps could befall with none to blame but the careless deceased. Swatting is available in the States; is that an option in UK?

No, I do not recommend attempted murder. It may fail, and then you're stuck.

I'm not going to do it, or even contemplate it. But it is an interesting question to consider.

 

[oggbashan]

You can't be blatant, now that you've announced your intent. Be subtle. A tragic accident could occur. A loosened stair-step; nicked brake-fluid line; timely rolling boulder, Mini, or fuel drum; rabid bat or rat in the WC; fentanyl slopped into his alcopop. All sorts of mishaps could befall with none to blame but the careless deceased. Swatting is available in the States; is that an option in UK?

No, I do not recommend attempted murder. It may fail, and then you're stuck.

Swatting wouldn't work in the UK except as harassment. Death by police officer is very rare as they tend to use non-lethal means even in extreme circumstances.

 

[JamesMiehoff]

Maybe I'm the lone dissenting voice, or maybe today is the day my darker half gets control of the keyboard, do it, but do it in such a way that there is no chance or retribution (legal or otherwise).

While a car "accident" sounds like a good idea, it would be difficult to arrange. Try something easier.

Since the bastard seems to want to prey on the weak, let it be known that you are becoming an invalid and spend all your time finishing up cataloging your vast coin collection before you die. Then wait for him to pay you a visit and kill him in your own home. It is then self-defense. That should absolve you of many legal issues.

In all seriousness, the moral implications of such an act would weigh heavily on you and anyone that knew the truth. I don't know you personally, which is my loss more than yours, but from your writings I get a sense that you do have a strong moral code and while there is potential good in such an act, the overwhelming bad karma of killing another human being would out weigh it.

James

Bad James here: Don't kill him. Just lure him in and then break both his kneecaps and both femurs with a baseball bat. It is hard to be a criminal on crutches.

- Just a thought -

 

[oggbashan]

...
Bad James here: Don't kill him. Just lure him in and then break both his kneecaps and both femurs with a baseball bat. It is hard to be a criminal on crutches.

- Just a thought -

A suggestion that had been made about him before:

Take him out on to one of our tidal mudflats and leave him there for the tide to come in. Since he was told that was planned he has stayed well clear of boats.

 

[TarnishedPenny]

Morality.

Define ‘morality’.

John Stuart Mill would say that a moral act is one with good consequences. Kant would judge it by laws. Rousseau would put it in the balance against societal norms. Martin Buber would say that rightness is defined by one’s own conscience. Take your pick.

Leaving morality aside, our legal system exists to protect the interests, welfare and personal safety of the individual. Vigilantism generally occurs when the people – or at least a substantial slice of them – rightly or wrongly feel that they are unprotected by that legal system. If the people come to perceive judges as turning away from protecting the people and instead occupying themselves with legalistic navel-gazing, people taking the law into their own hands becomes almost inevitable. In a British context, citing a 1981 Brixton graffito, Violence is the voice of those who cannot be heard.

You are a good man, Ogg. You will make a moral choice.

Fiat justitia ruat caelum.

 

[oggbashan]

...

In all seriousness, the moral implications of such an act would weigh heavily on you and anyone that knew the truth. I don't know you personally, which is my loss more than yours, but from your writings I get a sense that you do have a strong moral code and while there is potential good in such an act, the overwhelming bad karma of killing another human being would out weigh it.

James

To what extent is he 'another human being' and not a feral animal preying on the weak and defenceless?

Bad karma? What is one more?

OK, the others were 'justified' by war...

 

[MelissaBaby]

If you knew how bad this guy was all along, but you didn't choose to act until you could do so without worrying about the personal consequences, then you would not be committing a moral act. If it was a moral act you would do it whether or not you calculated that you could "get away with it."

 

[jaF0]

Hogs can be very hungry and leave little if any evidence.

 

[Handley_Page]

I can see the temptation - and quite honestly, in your shoes, might feel it myself.

It reminds me slightly of the Ken McElroy case in Missouri - he was known as the town bully, and had committed dozens of crimes. Shot dead in front of a crowd of people by at least two assailants. Nobody admitted to seeing a thing...

That puts me in mind of the ending of "Roadhouse", where all those who'd suffered at the hands of the Bad Guy (played by Ben Gazzara), took up arms and shot him. Then gathered all the weapons and took them away. . . . .

 

[oggbashan]

If you knew how bad this guy was all along, but you didn't choose to act until you could do so without worrying about the personal consequences, then you would not be committing a moral act. If it was a moral act you would do it whether or not you calculated that you could "get away with it."

Reporting his acts to the Police every time has got the community nowhere.

He is ordered by the courts to compensate his victims, doesn't pay and gets a few more days on the sentence which wipes ou the obligation. He regards jail as a holiday home.

 

[MelissaBaby]

Reporting his acts to the Police every time has got the community nowhere.

He is ordered by the courts to compensate his victims, doesn't pay and gets a few more days on the sentence which wipes ou the obligation. He regards jail as a holiday home.

That speaks to his morality, not yours. Believe me, I understand where you are coming from. I have known more than my share of pretty loathsome individuals. I don't necessarily disagree that you ought to (hypothetically) deal this creep out. But if you don't accept that you would be committing an immoral act to eliminate a situation you have decided is a greater moral affront, you are fooling yourself.

 

[vanmyers86]

I am reminded of Curtain, by Agatha Christie. Similar moral dilemma: Poirot has little time left, and must decide whether to take justice into his own hands. Entertaining as fiction, horrifying as a real-life act.

I have faith you will choose the right thing, good sir.