Overage disclaimer

[astuffedshirt_perv]

I just got a story rejected for underage, but all three characters are HS seniors, talk about graduation and which college they are going to. I thought it was pretty clear in the opening lines that they were seniors, as they had been 'in the same [high] school for 4 years'

Is a disclaimer that all characters are over 18 now the expectation? I resubmitted it with a note for the reviewer, but am now wondering if I should have put the disclaimer in.

 

[NotWise]

Is a disclaimer that all characters are over 18 now the expectation? I resubmitted it with a note for the reviewer, but am now wondering if I should have put the disclaimer in.

That disclaimer is meaningless. I find them annoying.

Laurel probably picked up on some line or mannerism when she skimmed the story, and she decided the characters were too young. You can resubmit the story with a note and it may clear up the problem, but she would have no reason to believe that an "over eighteen" disclaimer was true.

 

[SimonDoom]

Many high school seniors are not 18 yet. I have never used a disclaimer. If I were to write about a high school senior I would make it clear within the first page of the body of the story that the character recently had celebrated their 18th birthday, or something like that. I've seen numerous stories featuring high schoolers that have passed muster on this site.

 

[TarnishedPenny]

Annoying, perhaps, but it’s her site. I try to dodge the statutory declaration; I find a way to work it into the story, just dropping a short something in, like, “I met her at a dance a week after my 18th birthday part.” Problem solved.

 

[jaF0]

Many high school seniors are not 18 yet.

'High School Age' is kind of meaningless. Kids get in sooner with higher grades by skipping years, or get held back by low grades. Schools admit kids by birthdate, so those who were born in December may be in a different grade that those born in January. As a result, Seniors van be anywhere between 16 and 19. And there are those rare cases where 10 or 12 year olds are advanced several grades.

 

[SimonDoom]

'High School Age' is kind of meaningless. Kids get in sooner with higher grades by skipping years, or get held back by low grades. Schools admit kids by birthdate, so those who were born in December may be in a different grade that those born in January. As a result, Seniors van be anywhere between 16 and 19. And there are those rare cases where 10 or 12 year olds are advanced several grades.

Strictly speaking, you're right, but I don't think you're going to have a problem with a character who's a freshman in college, even though it's possible such a character is under 18. My stories so far have always featured high school graduates, and I've never had a problem getting a story accepted. "High school" raises a red flag here, and the way to get rid of the red flag is to make it crystal clear in the body of the story that the high school character is 18 or over.

I think the solution to this issue is to deal with it in the body of the story and ditch the disclaimers. I've never used a disclaimer and never had a problem.

 

[ThisNameIsntTakenYet]

Strictly speaking, you're right, but I don't think you're going to have a problem with a character who's a freshman in college, even though it's possible such a character is under 18. My stories so far have always featured high school graduates, and I've never had a problem getting a story accepted. "High school" raises a red flag here, and the way to get rid of the red flag is to make it crystal clear in the body of the story that the high school character is 18 or over.

I think the solution to this issue is to deal with it in the body of the story and ditch the disclaimers. I've never used a disclaimer and never had a problem.

I did mention at the start of my nude day story that all characters were over 18, and pretty early on it's mentioned that they've just graduated high school and it's a few weeks into the following summer vacation. I didn't specify ages more clearly than that and it got accepted. Now it was a contest story submitted very close to the deadline, so it might be possible it got looked at a bit less closely than usual because of time constraints. But still, apparently that was enough for my story.

 

[Javahead]

I did mention at the start of my nude day story that all characters were over 18, and pretty early on it's mentioned that they've just graduated high school and it's a few weeks into the following summer vacation. I didn't specify ages more clearly than that and it got accepted. Now it was a contest story submitted very close to the deadline, so it might be possible it got looked at a bit less closely than usual because of time constraints. But still, apparently that was enough for my story.

I had a story held up because the female lead mention thinking about - but not having - sex in her mid teens. I rewrote it slightly to make it more obvious no underage sex occurred and explained it in a note to Laurel.

I’m not certain that her strict guidelines are legally required, but given the amount of time and money an overzealous prosecution would entail I can fully understand her sensitivity on the subject.

 

[Javahead]

'High School Age' is kind of meaningless. Kids get in sooner with higher grades by skipping years, or get held back by low grades. Schools admit kids by birthdate, so those who were born in December may be in a different grade that those born in January. As a result, Seniors van be anywhere between 16 and 19. And there are those rare cases where 10 or 12 year olds are advanced several grades.

I graduated high school at 17, as did my younger daughter. My older daughter graduated three weeks before her 17th birthday. So, yes, quite possible.

 

[jaF0]

I’m not certain that her strict guidelines are legally required, but given the amount of time and money an overzealous prosecution would entail I can fully understand her sensitivity on the subject.

It's been explained that it involves search placement and that sites that don't vigorously exclude it can be ranked lower.

Do a search for certain types of terms and see how often ASSTR shows up for example.

 

[NotWise]

I’m not certain that her strict guidelines are legally required, but given the amount of time and money an overzealous prosecution would entail I can fully understand her sensitivity on the subject.

Laurel's stance on underage content is not a legal requirement, it is her requirement.

For what it's worth, the site does not say there can be no sex under eighteen. It says that you can't describe sex under eighteen. You can have a 20-year-old character say, "I lost my virginity five years ago," but if you get much more into it, then you're asking for trouble.

 

[KeithD]

I’m not certain that her strict guidelines are legally required, but given the amount of time and money an overzealous prosecution would entail I can fully understand her sensitivity on the subject.

Prosecution for what? Legality isn't a reason why underage is rejected here. Writing underage sex isn't illegal. It quite frequently is written in the mainstream.

 

[AlinaX]

I've added the disclaimer on a few stories just to please her (along with some whining about why it wasn't necessary).

 

[SimonDoom]

Prosecution for what? Legality isn't a reason why underage is rejected here. Writing underage sex isn't illegal. It quite frequently is written in the mainstream.

This isn't 100% clear under the law. I agree with you that this is what the law should be, and it seems to be the law in most places in the US, but there's some precedent for prosecuting people in the US for writing stories about underage sex.

A federal judge in Georgia upheld a prosecution for obscenity against a man who wrote stories about violent sexual acts against underage boys. "Obscenity" is not protected under the First Amendment, so of course the question is, what is obscene? Photographs of underage children in explicit sexual situations are obscene. But the status of illustrations and stories is not as clear. In this case the judge found that the stories were obscene and therefore not protected under the First Amendment free speech doctrine.

Description of case here: https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20130505/14372422951/court-finds-fantasy-stories-obscene.shtml. This case is from 2013, so it's fairly current.

Bottom line: Laurel's rules are the rules, they are not dictated by the law, and there probably is no risk of liability or prosecution under the law for writing stories about underage sex. But it's not 100% clear.

 

[TarnishedPenny]

This isn't 100% clear under the law. I agree with you that this is what the law should be, and it seems to be the law in most places in the US, but there's some precedent for prosecuting people in the US for writing stories about underage sex.

A federal judge in Georgia upheld a prosecution for obscenity against a man who wrote stories about violent sexual acts against underage boys. "Obscenity" is not protected under the First Amendment, so of course the question is, what is obscene? Photographs of underage children in explicit sexual situations are obscene. But the status of illustrations and stories is not as clear. In this case the judge found that the stories were obscene and therefore not protected under the First Amendment free speech doctrine.

Description of case here: https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20130505/14372422951/court-finds-fantasy-stories-obscene.shtml. This case is from 2013, so it's fairly current.

Bottom line: Laurel's rules are the rules, they are not dictated by the law, and there probably is no risk of liability or prosecution under the law for writing stories about underage sex. But it's not 100% clear.

I suspect that her policy also protects her, to some degree at least, against nuisance prosecutions.

 

[jaF0]

^^ Under that premise, wouldn't the plethora of violent murder stories be banned? What about crap like the 'Saw' series which is far beyond 'obscene' in my view?

 

[KeithD]

I suspect that her policy also protects her, to some degree at least, against nuisance prosecutions.

It protects from nuisance criticism and highlighting (and to some extent users who the Web site doesn't want other users to have to share space with) on the basis of underage material, but I continue to hold that there is no fear of legal prosecution if any underage writing is found here.

 

[KeithD]

^^ Under that premise, wouldn't the plethora of violent murder stories be banned? What about crap like the 'Saw' series which is far beyond 'obscene' in my view?

Not to mention that some of the incest stories here involve illegal activity in real life just as much as underage sex does and yet they are permitted here--because writing about it isn't illegal.

 

[SimonDoom]

^^ Under that premise, wouldn't the plethora of violent murder stories be banned? What about crap like the 'Saw' series which is far beyond 'obscene' in my view?

You're highlighting a longstanding bizarre distinction that US law makes between violence and sex. I'm aware of no obscenity prosecutions for violence, no matter how awful or explicit. But there's some precedent for prosecution of obscenity for sex, even where it does not involve real people, or involves nothing more than a story. It makes no sense, but there it is.

 

[Hypoxia]

This again.

Laurel's 18+ rule is her rule and it seems to work. Underage sex abounds in mainstream lit and other websites but the rule here is: No sex described with anyone appearing to be a human under 18. Sex can be reported ("the wild girl gave birth at 15") but no more. Sexual thoughts are sex so no fantasies.

As with Laurel's other rules (snuff and bestiality) the underage ban can be finessed but it gets pretty obvious. How many stories do we need where a 15-year-old awakens from a coma or magic spell in an 18-year-old body? They're 'adult' for LIT but adolescent emotionally. I think that's cheating.

Laurel rejected my first LIT submission because I didn't clearly establish ages. Since then I've always included disclaimers and made sure of contexts.

 

[eroticstoryspinner]

As irritated as I am with Laurel right now, I can fully see why she errs on the side of caution on underage. Sure, mainstream literature does it. Most such books are published by mainstream publishers with mainstream legal departments.
Way better to be safe than sorry.

Where you are in school is no real indicator of age. In the US, most high school graduates are 17. I have a character who had just turned 18. And was a college junior. It's a lot easier to just mention the age.

 

[jaF0]

Hollyweird makes millions on people shooting each other which is far more 'obscene' than people screwing each other.

 

[SimonDoom]

Hollyweird makes millions on people shooting each other which is far more 'obscene' than people screwing each other.

You get no argument from me, philosophically, but RubenR is 100% right: our opinion doesn't matter. Society thinks what it thinks and it makes the rules that it makes. Don't expect logic or common sense. Observe, don't judge.

 

[Javahead]

If I didn't make it clear, I don't think Laurel's rules are legally needed, but a preemptive response to prevent or reduce malicious prosecution.

In the US - in most of the world, I suspect - it's quite possible to be taken to court for things that are perfectly legal. Even if you're assured of eventual victory, it can take a great deal of time, aggravation, and money to win through, and you're unlikely to receive any compensation.

In that light, and given the small size of Literotica's apparent budget, setting limits well inside the true legal boundaries may help prevent problems.

 

[Jada59]

I was 17 when I graduated. I know people who were 16 when they entered college. I actually worked in the school office. Some seniors were 18. A few were 19 to 21. Most were 17 for at least part of the year.