Climate continues to change.

[Conager]

“Fact is that most "ways of knowing" are faith-based.” Made me laugh.

Lustatopia, you seem to be personally conflicted. You accept that CO2 drives climate change, that CO2 is increasing through human activity, and that climate change is occurring. Yet you describe those who agree with you as if they were loonies.

A) He did not say it "DRIVES" climate change. That is your loonie spin. You loons conflate the possible impact that anthropogenic factors play with the totality of climate.

B) You ignore everything he said about the competing feedback loops because you cannot hear anything that does not harmonize with the crowd.

C) You completely ignore what he said about the SCALE of the "problem" even if your wildest dystopian fantasies are unmitigated by other competing systems.

 

[trysail]

By 2025 Germany will have spent $580B to make electricity nearly 2x more expensive & 10x more carbon-intensive than France’s.

Forbes

https://4k4oijnpiu3l4c3h-zippykid.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/how-climate-change-affects-you.jpg



​

 

[von_Bismarck]

It's like Libsam and trysail had a love child.

 

[Conager]

It's like Libsam and trysail had a love child.

You're right, he does seem to understand and be able to articulate the issues much better than you and Phro.

 

[von_Bismarck]

You're right, he does seem to understand and be able to articulate the issues much better than you and Phro.

Partisanhacksayswhat?

 

[Conager]

Finally!

One of the excessive religiosity nuts admits this is a highly partisan issue for them and has little to nothing to do with actual.concern for the environment.

There is nothing "partisan" about pointing out that your dozens of posts of "You're WRONG!" directed at Trysail is not you articulating any actual knowledge or understanding of the issues being discussed..

 

[phrodeau]

A) He did not say it "DRIVES" climate change. That is your loonie spin. You loons conflate the possible impact that anthropogenic factors play with the totality of climate.

B) You ignore everything he said about the competing feedback loops because you cannot hear anything that does not harmonize with the crowd.

C) You completely ignore what he said about the SCALE of the "problem" even if your wildest dystopian fantasies are unmitigated by other competing systems.

Here’s what he posted: “The real science dope, that even the IPCC certifies, goes like this:

Every time atmospheric CO2 doubles, the Earth's average temperature rises by 1c.”

That’s an acknowledgment of CO2 driving temperature change, even if it’s more accurate to say that CO2 doubling more likely leads to change in the range of 2C to 4.5C.

So with that in mind, I am not giving credence to his ideas about scale. And if it takes 500 years for the earth to become unbearable instead of 50, that’s no excuse for inaction now.

 

[von_Bismarck]

Finally!

One of the excessive religiosity nuts admits this is a highly partisan issue for them and has little to nothing to do with actual.concern for the environment.

There is nothing "partisan" about pointing out that your dozens of posts of "You're WRONG!" directed at Trysail is not you articulating any actual knowledge or understanding of the issues being discussed..

Partisanhacksayswhat?

 

[Conager]

Here’s what he posted: “The real science dope, that even the IPCC certifies, goes like this:

Every time atmospheric CO2 doubles, the Earth's average temperature rises by 1c.”

That’s an acknowledgment of CO2 driving temperature change, even if it’s more accurate to say that CO2 doubling more likely leads to change in the range of 2C to 4.5C.

So with that in mind, I am not giving credence to his ideas about scale. And if it takes 500 years for the earth to become unbearable instead of 50, that’s no excuse for inaction now.

"Unbearable."

Yeah, you should probably stay away from Phoenix.

No one on the left, which now includes most Republicans cares what happens in 20 years, let alone 500 if you look at how they are willing to encumber the future.

 

[Hal9000_]

https://www.livescience.com/july-hottest-month-ever-record-climate-change.html

July Was the Hottest Month Ever Recorded on Earth

 

[Kantarii]

https://www.livescience.com/july-hottest-month-ever-record-climate-change.html

July Was the Hottest Month Ever Recorded on Earth

Fall will be here before you know it.

 

[lustatopia]

Here’s what he posted: “The real science dope, that even the IPCC certifies, goes like this:

Every time atmospheric CO2 doubles, the Earth's average temperature rises by 1c.”

That’s an acknowledgment of CO2 driving temperature change, even if it’s more accurate to say that CO2 doubling more likely leads to change in the range of 2C to 4.5C.

So with that in mind, I am not giving credence to his ideas about scale. And if it takes 500 years for the earth to become unbearable instead of 50, that’s no excuse for inaction now.

Bravo! spoken like a true acolyte of the Faith. Someone totally ignorant of complex system analysis.

Of course, technically you are absolutely right...If things stay exactly the way they are now we will warm the climate by 2c by the year 2300.

But that's will only happen in a world - something like Cuba, really - where we are still driving great great great grandpa's SUV in 2250. Hey, maybe 8-tracks will come back in style too. It's a steampunk fantasy!

That's the kind of linear stupid we have come to expect from Climate Evangelicals.

 

[phrodeau]

Fall will be here before you know it.

It will be spring soon in the Southern Hemisphere. The winter has been exceptionally mild.

And lustatopia, WTF?

 

[Conager]

It will be spring soon in the Southern Hemisphere. The winter has been exceptionally mild.

And lustatopia, WTF?

Oops. Phro assumed he had another voice for the choir.


Pie Iesu Domine, dona eis requim.

SMACK!​

Pie Iesu Domine, dona eis requim.

SMACK!​

Pie Iesu Domine, dona eis requim.

SMACK!​

 

[gunthernehmen]

The data comes from the same sources. Ice cores, fossil records, isotopes, etc. You reject one conclusion while embracing the other. Illogical.

You also ignored my questions about nuclear power.

How would tidal power generating stations impact the environment? More than nuclear power plants?

An ice core can tell you how much ice formed and when. The data tells you WHAT. The WHY is conjecture. Theory.

With the increase in electric vehicles, yes, we can have nuclear powered cars. They charge at home or the office by plugging into the wall. That means less impact from vehicles using fossil fuels because there are fewer of them.

These are really simple concepts. Are you sure you're not just trolling?

 

[von_Bismarck]

Ice cores provide a great deal more data than merely how much ice formed and when.

https://climate.nasa.gov/news/2616/core-questions-an-introduction-to-ice-cores/

These are really simple concepts. Are you sure you're not just trolling?

 

[Hal9000_]

Ice cores provide a great deal more data than merely how much ice formed and when.

https://climate.nasa.gov/news/2616/core-questions-an-introduction-to-ice-cores/

These are really simple concepts. Are you sure you're not just trolling?

By their logic historical climate change is just a theory.

 

[gunthernehmen]

By their logic historical climate change is just a theory.

So cute. Climate change is real and ultimately has been good to us. (so far anyway) The dinosaurs breathed air that would be almost impossible for us to breathe.

There is nothing theoretical about climate changing over time. You're simply theorizing that the REASON for it is what the prophets Gore and AOC preach.

Were you the one touting tidal power and claiming it's green and no impact to the environment? You love "models" so much:

https://www.biogeosciences.net/13/2593/2016/bg-13-2593-2016.pdf

You people will destroy the Earth you claim to be saving.

 

[lustatopia]

I'm going tell you all a major secret about CO2 that many Earth science researchers know, but it's not polite to talk about in mixed company because it so amazingly counter-intuitive. It'd be like talking to grandmum about gay sex positions. You just don't go there.

It's the big trade secret, really. Oh, the geeks talk about it all the time in hushed tones among themselves, heatedly debating the details and the mind-boggling implications, while huddled in their research ship's mess hall over shitty coffee. Especially the "paleos". You know, the paleolimnologists, the paleodendrochonologists, paleontologists, paleoclimatologists, glaciochemists, paleoatmospherics dudes and the paleobotanists, et al. Ah, fuck, who am I kidding? You fuckers never heard of this shit, right?

Sometimes one of these paleo geeks has too much to drink, after a tour of duty in Greenland, down at the local pub while hanging with GCM geeks from JPL or NASA or Berkeley or Hadley Centre in Exeter and voices are raised. That's how I learned about, over a lot of drinks in Exeter. But usually they never talk to ordinary laypeople and never, ever, never to the media. God no! You'd lose your cushy research job at the MET office. This is eyes only shit, man.

Here's the big secret:

A long, long time ago when the Earth was younger, its outer crust was thinner and so there was a lot more volcanism and this produced a constant stream of CO2 into the atmosphere, but over the course of the last, oh say, 300 million years the core of the Earth has been cooling, the crust thickening and the volcanism slow receding. The amount of CO2 being added to the climate has been in decline for a very long time.

And then there are plants and animals. Especially plants like oceanic foraminifera and corals that produce trillions of tons of CaCO3 in the form of tiny shells made from CO2 extracted from the atmosphere. When they die their micro-shells sink to the depths of the ocean and are compressed and stored forever as limestone and marble, with only a tiny portion subducted, melted and returned to the atmosphere, in part, as CO2-rich gases spewed from a volcano, a cyclical process that could take 500 millions years to complete and is slowing down all the time.

Other kinds of plants subtract CO2 from the atmosphere too, die and are deeply buried, compressed into coal, gas and oil, the fossil fuels.

You see what is going on here? Over the last some hundreds of millions of years the Earth's climate is slowly being scrubbed of CO2 by plants. The net addition of CO2 by volcanic activity is no longer keeping pace with what is being used and buried by plants. It's just a tiny, tiny imbalance but it adds up over the course of eons. Of course, it hasn't been a steady decline, major volcanic episodes and the errand asteroid or two cracking open the Earth's shell led to new spikes in CO2 emission, resetting the clock. But still the CO2 decline is relentless.

So the fuck what, you say? Good. Carbon is pollution.

Actually, no. No, it is not.

About 75 million years ago the level of atmospheric CO2 was in the 1000's of parts per millions range. Commercial greenhouse operations today typically boost CO2 to 3000ppm to accelerate healthy plant growth. Even during ancient glaciation periods CO2 levels were often many times what they are today.

By the beginning of the industrial age, CO2 levels were quite literally at geologically the lowest levels EVER! Well, maybe, nobody really knows for sure. But it is reckoned that in 1850, CO2 levels were bottoming out at about 240-250ppm.

The earth's crush had become too thick, the core is cooling, the resulting slowdown in volcanic activity had allowed organic sequestration of CO2 to get ahead of CO2 emissions on a scale of millions of years.

At about 220ppm plants begin to die of CO2 starvation.

Evolution had been working overtime the last 75 million years to produce new ways to photosynthesize using the chronically lower levels of CO2. The great global carboniferous forests the dinosaurs loved all but disappeared in the new low CO2 regime. Grasses evolved because the don't need as much CO2 as earlier weeds and that allowed the ruminant megafauna to coevolve as well, helping to reduce the sequestration of CO2 by recycling it back into the atmosphere via mega-farts and mega-dung piles.

In fact, CO2 levels had fallen so low that by 13,000BP things were looking grim. Some paleo-scientists reckon that had the decline continued the Earth was facing a new era of massive desertification due to lack of CO2 to support many plants. That would have led to a massive CO2-starvation fauna extinction event unlike anything experience in the past 250 million years.

Luckily, we were saved by the YDI in ~12850 BP. Naturally, you Warmist peasants have never heard of the YDI event, because that's just the kind of esoteric mystery the high priesthood only reveals to the initiated. You must never repeat any of this, OK?

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-38089-y

The Younger Dryas Impact (named after a pretty flower that was a favourite treat of Mastodons) was a comet that broke up and struck the Earth in probably >100 locations globally creating several mega-craters 10 to 70 kilometres in diameters, and many Tunguska-like events wiping out most animal life larger than about 80kg by basically burning the planet down. It also added a shitload of CO2 to the atmosphere, thus resetting the levels up into the 280ppm range.

YDI event created massive climate change, instant -4c to -8c shifts that lasted about 100 to 200 years then bounced back ~ 8c in the course of a few decades. Talk about serious climate change, YDI is the mother of all climate disruptions. In the end, though, as long as you were NOT a member of the megafauna clades everything turned out for the better. We were saved from CO2 plant starvation for the next 12,000 years.

By 1850, shit was looking pretty grim again. CO2 levels continued to decline down to about 250ppm, dangerously low, if you like trees and flowers. We probably had only another 200 to 1,000 years left before a major extinction event.

Then capitalism mysteriously happened and with it, techno-evolution. Western civilization discovered it could access all that fossilized sunshine (coal) to power cotton and steel mills, etc. Of course, that was barely scratching the surface. Even the high priests at the IPCC don't think fossil fuel usage got enough steam up to start driving CO2 levels higher until well after WWII. But now with the whole friggin' world in on the act, CO2 levels are climbing back into a healthy range for plants.

In fact - and this is another one of those impolite secrets the paleobotanists aren't allowed to mention - plants are now growing 30% faster today than they were in 1900. Yup, Google it. It might be hard to find on Google; their algorithms are designed to bury this kind of fact. Better yet, higher levels of CO2 mean that plants use water far more efficiently in photosynthesis. Yup, that's right bubba, the Earth is in a historic desert reclamation cycle now as you read these words. It's the bloody Greening of Planet Earth on a level not seen in a 100 million years!

https://www.nature.com/articles/nature22030

You can see why my paleo buddy in Exeter had to have a few drinks before he could get this secret off his chest. He'd lose his cushy job if he talked to the Daily Mail about this shit.

The bottom line is everything you have ever been told about CO2, everything they are teaching kids in school, everything you see on TV or hear Congress critters ranting on about is one big fucking, twisted Orwellian lie of a magnitude never before attempted in human history. True, most people are just innocent useful idiots, they don't know what they preach.

Capitalism is greening the Earth. The internal combustion engine has saved us from CO2 starvation by releasing trillions to the nth power tons of stored CO2 into the atmosphere thanks to our technologies that have allowed us to dig up fossil deposits and turn them into energy. We are still only at 400ppm CO2. At the current rate it will take 200 years to double that and at 800ppm CO2 the warming effect might be 1.2c. A small price to pay to have saved Gaia. Of course, we'll never double the CO2 level because new technologies are evolving to replace fossil fuels and global human populations are likely to be much lower in the future.

* * *

Here's where it gets really wickedly weird... I've told you about the fundamentalist Evangelical Warmist Millenarian religion. They're like the Bible thumping Southern Baptists, holy rollers with mega-churches. They do lie. They want to tax you to support their lifestyle.

But there is also a new emerging gnostic ecohumanist mysticism too. Right now, it is still shrouded in secrecy because only the paleo-scientists and the general circulation modelling geeks have the esoteric knowledge to put all the pieces together. I'm no authority here - much less a believer - still, from what I gleaned from my sources, the emergent world view among the literati goes something like this:

It starts with two big cognitive leaps that I don't expect you to try at home.

First, is that a "strong" version of James Lovelock's Gaia hypothesis is reality. That means Gaia (the Earth's entire Bio-geosphere) is a single living being about 750 million years old. Think of Gaia as an amazingly complex and ancient Sequoia tree. She has been evolving that whole time working on developing self-conscious awareness. Why does a living planetary being want self-conscious awareness? So that it can take control of its, up until now, fully autonomous feedback cycles some of which have decaying orbits before since the start of our present ice age. (Oh, fuck, you guys wouldn't know, but we are and have been in the latest of one of Gaia's three great ice ages for millions of years now. An ice age is a bit like having a flu for Gaia.)

Humanity, our evolution, is purposeful. We are Gaia's self-awareness system. We evolved to be the mind's eye that Gaia can observe and measure herself with and then make adjustments. That's why we just happened to appear "magically" just now, at this critical point in geologic history, just in time to boost declining CO2 levels back to safe comfortable levels for Gaia. A million years ago we would have been too early. 1,000 years from now, we would have been too late. We humans are happening at just the perfect moment. That's weird, huh?

But Gaia has even bigger plans for us. We are destined to stop the rain of terror that asteroids and comets have caused Gaia her whole life. She's sick of that Oort cloud shit. No more set-backs to her evolution. But the really big thing that she wants is to have children. Gaia "thinks" like a giant tree. It's time for her to go to seed and spread baby Gaias out into the solar system and beyond.

Hey, I'm not sayin' any of this ecohumanist Gaia stuff is true, just that it is out there and the people who told me about it believe it will be THE narrative by, say, 2040.

The second part of the new gnostic eco-humanism is so esoteric and secret that I probably shouldn't mention it, because I don't understand myself. I've been told that Normals should not be allowed to know anything about it at this point in human history. Too early. I shall say no more on this topic for fear of having already said too much. Still, wtf, I've gone this far, so I'll just point you in one little direction, which I am sure you'll fail to grasp the implication of. I know I did.

https://www.simulation-argument.com/simulation.html

 

[Kantarii]

Like wow!

 

[Hal9000_]

There is nothing theoretical about climate changing over time.

How do you know? Based on what data? You were there to directly observe it?

You should tout the benefits of nuclear power to the people of Fukushima.

 

[Hal9000_]

Capitalism is greening the Earth.

Only in your mind:


https://www.livescience.com/27692-deforestation.html

"Some other statistics:

-About half of the world's tropical forests have been cleared, according to the FAO.

-Forests currently cover about 30 percent of the world’s landmass, according to National Geographic.

-The Earth loses 18.7 million acres of forests per year, which is equal to 27 soccer fields every minute, according to the World Wildlife Fund (WWF).

-It is estimated that 15 percent of all greenhouse gas emissions come from deforestation, according to the WWF.

-In 2016, global tree cover loss reached a record of 73.4 million acres (29.7 million hectares), according to the University of Maryland."

 

[gunthernehmen]

How do you know? Based on what data? You were there to directly observe it?

You should tout the benefits of nuclear power to the people of Fukushima.

The data you mentioned. Ice cores and shit.

Fukushima. That's the nuke plant that was taken out by a tidal wave, wasn't it? ROFL The idiots should have just plugged the grid into THAT!

You're new to this internet thing, aren't you?

 

[Hal9000_]

Oh, the same data that shows human CO2 emissions are the main factor in current warming. Oh yeah...that evidence.

How do we get fuel for nuclear reactors?

I'm sure the whole cycle from refueling to decommissioning to long term waste storage is very environmentally friendly.

 

[gunthernehmen]

Oh, the same data that shows human CO2 emissions are the main factor in current warming. Oh yeah...that evidence.

How do we get fuel for nuclear reactors?

I'm sure the whole cycle from refueling to decommissioning to long term waste storage is very environmentally friendly.

Again, you are using data to show facts (climate change) and you are using data to "prove" a theory (ACC). And you don't even realize your mistake.

Are you still trying to claim that tidal power is eco friendly? Tell that to the fish and marine environments that will be decimated. Tell it to the Prophet Gore when he wonders why weather patterns and climate are being changed by the tidal generators when you told him they would FIX everything.

Goodnight, love. I'm going to bed.