Chapters....the unfair advantage

[lovecraft68]

As people know I'm not a stat junky who spends time analyzing numbers, but seeing the chapter topic came up again when keithD mentioned how one sided GM is I spent some time poking around.

Unlike most stats here there is no room for interpretation, a story is a series or a stand alone.

Why is this an issue? Because many readers head to the top lists of their fav categories to find things to read so these ridiculously skewed numbers reward people who just go on and on with the same series and at this point many know what we all know...want skewed high scores and top placement? Break your story into sections, lots of them.

Second issue? This is not a hard fix for the site. A separate top list for series...now wouldn't that be fun? Imagine the frustration of all these people when only fifty chapters out of the thousands here, can rank?

Now it could be sub split as in "GM stand alone and GM series" most likely the best fix.

Its also been discussed that a series can't rank until its complete then an average score is tallied and one chapter makes the list...that I can see being a lot work on the site's part and would not expect it.

Third issue? The site simply doesn't care. They don't care that many authors here with great stand alone stories don't get a fraction of the attention the series mongers do.

So this is pointless in the sense of looking for something to be done (oh, wait, something was promised as recently as a year ago)

But its not pointless for newer authors who wonder what we're talking about or people who simply didn't realize how skewed this has become.

These are the numbers from the first page of all time lists because its the best of the best(supposedly) and I imagine the thirty and six month lists aren't going to be much different.

There are fifty stories on the page. First number is chapter stories, second is stand alone.

Mature-28-22(one of the more balanced categories, for now)

Incest/taboo-40-10

Group sex-43-7(one has 105 chapters)

Sci fi-46-4

Gay male-49-1

BDSM 47-3

Non Human-47-3

Lesbian-30-20

Loving wives 19-31(this category seems to be the only one that works best in stand alone form.)

Erotic couplings 38-12

Non consent-49-1

Mind control-46-4

Fetish-34-16(If anyone is looking "Hypnosissy" does not have chapters, but they are part of a series so I'm giving them chapter status. That's my opinion so if you don't agree it can be 34-18

Erotic horror 39-11(same deal as above with "succubus summoning" series.

Interracial-48-2

Anal-36-24 (we have a winner!)

First time 30-20(okay just a quick question...first time is based on first time sex...how does that extend into a longer series? First time sex, first time anal, first time with the lights on? That the focus of the chapters? Just curious as it seems made for one shots

Celebs 48-2

Romance 32-18

Novels and novellas 39-11 (honestly I'd expect chapters in this category)

Humor-25-25

E/V-42-8

Trans 43-7

Non erotic 30-20

Toys 37-13

Not sure if I missed any, but the following three I'm putting under doesn't really apply by nature of the category

How too Reviews and essays (stand alone topics)

Chain stories gets a pass, of course they're mostly chapters

 

[SimonDoom]

I agree with this, but I also think that the best way to make this point and get a reaction from the site owner is to emphasize how this problem adversely affects readers just as much as authors. Readers are what matter. They far outnumber authors and drive the traffic and the site and therefore its value.

I assume top rating lists are used by readers frequently to identify stories they want to read. As those lists become more and more crowded with innumerable chapters of endless stories, they become less valuable. They don't provide as much useful information to readers looking for stories. The Sci Fi category in particular is ridiculous, but it's not the only one.

This problem is growing over time, as well, to the point of rendering some toplists of little value to readers.

Creating separate lists would add significant value to the site for readers.

 

[lovecraft68]

I agree with this, but I also think that the best way to make this point and get a reaction from the site owner is to emphasize how this problem adversely affects readers just as much as authors. Readers are what matter. They far outnumber authors and drive the traffic and the site and therefore its value.

I assume top rating lists are used by readers frequently to identify stories they want to read. As those lists become more and more crowded with innumerable chapters of endless stories, they become less valuable. They don't provide as much useful information to readers looking for stories. The Sci Fi category in particular is ridiculous, but it's not the only one.

This problem is growing over time, as well, to the point of rendering some toplists of little value to readers.

Creating separate lists would add significant value to the site for readers.

The point has been made to the site many times by many people. I recall Reject Reality (under one of his other names I think) going on about this back around 5-6 years ago. The problem has grown much larger since then.

All the numbers have been shown, the reasons given, the points made.

Last time it was discussed was due to the 2017(?) annual awards (maybe 2016 but in 2017) featuring chapter series and the authors of them nominated for the biggest categories and it was discussed its unfair because they are not complete stories.

that year it was promised again something would be done and they would no longer be allowed in the annuals.

then when they started this year lo and behold chapter stories and anyone that brought it up had their post deleted with a note about attacks and disparaging the contest.

That's how they roll here and the attitude is get lost if you don't like it. Infuriating way to see a business run.

 

[SimonDoom]

That's how they roll here and the attitude is get lost if you don't like it. Infuriating way to see a business run.

I'm just speculating but based upon what I've seen and read I get the sense it's a shoe-string operation and it must be all-consuming just to keep up with the constant influx of new stories, let alone trying to make big, permanent changes.

As far as I can tell the problem's not unique to this site. I don't visit other erotica sites as much as I used to but when I do they look and function exactly the same as years ago. Most of them are pretty rinky-dink. Seems to me there's a niche to be filled for a higher-functioning erotica site and this site would be the ideal one to fill that niche because of its huge readership and story inventory, but what do I know?

 

[JKendallDane]

I'm just speculating but based upon what I've seen and read I get the sense it's a shoe-string operation and it must be all-consuming just to keep up with the constant influx of new stories, let alone trying to make big, permanent changes.

As far as I can tell the problem's not unique to this site. I don't visit other erotica sites as much as I used to but when I do they look and function exactly the same as years ago.

Well said! I agree that a dual HOF listing where stand alones and chaptered stories are separated but both recognized would be the best for everyone. Every time this topic comes up we all pretty much agree on that.

But let's also remember one major thing: Lit is not eBay or Amazon or Facebook with thousands of coders on staff to make something happen in what is considered a "reasonable" time period. Rather, it is a site with a very limited staff coming up on its 20th year and running on a platform not too much different from when it first went live back then. Nothing is an "easy fix" when the volume of code involved here is all pretty much interlinked from stories to top lists to voting to searches to comments to...well, everything else on the site...and every single keystroke of new code has to be written and tested over and over so it doesn't create three new problems or totally crash the site. Anyone that dealt with eBay at the same time Lit was launching can well remember hours and even days of blackouts because of one line of new code screwed up the whole system.

For crying out loud...Windows 10 was forced on us more than three years ago and Microsoft with its literal army of coders is still trying to get all the code problems and resulting bugs straightened out. Calling things here a "simple fix" is akin to deciding to completely renovate the Smithsonian by starting with ripping off the roof and then complaining that it needs new entry doors right away too. And what about a new parking lot? When's that gonna be done? Oh, and let's jazz up the gift shop and bathrooms too.

Changes will happen when they happen and none of us is privy to what the order of the changes will be or is required to be. So let's not rip off the roof and pray it doesn't rain.

.

 

[RejectReality]

Laurel said in the far flung past that this place opened as a passion project. She wanted to read erotic stories that had a level of quality, and created a place where she could do exactly that, and share them with anyone else who wanted to come read with her.

Though I can't recall her ever saying so, I'm sure the success of the site and exponential growth was nothing she ever expected. I doubt it was ever envisioned as a business, and I don't think it is now. It's meant to generate sufficient income to keep itself rolling along and providing the original purpose. Nothing more.

I'll have to look it up, but I don't recall Laurel promising that chapters would be eliminated from forthcoming contests. As I recall, she said they hoped to have everything in place to do so by the following year.

I think people saw what they wanted to see, and not what was actually on the page.

Can't find the one I remember, but there's this:

I've answered your questions on the other thread. I've told you we're working implementing changes that you have suggested regarding chaptered works.

http://forum.literotica.com/showpost.php?p=76177160&postcount=142

Obviously, the difficult transition from ancient code and databases to infrastructure capable of sustaining a modern site with that capability hasn't yet come to fruition.

I constantly see people harping about the business model, and wooing advertisers, and whatnot. That's where I think the disconnect is. What I see is a passion project that's funding itself on a shoestring budget, with a skeleton crew mostly limited to Laurel and Manu.

There are a lot of assumptions happening that don't jive with anything Laurel has ever said, or the way things run.

Yes, chapters could probably be manually weeded out without automated infrastructure to take care of it. It would, however, require a lot of time to do so, and all of that would be on Laurel.

In addition to checking every story, working on the upgrade, having a life outside of this site...

Have a little patience, and if you don't like the way things run currently, don't participate. It's not all that difficult. Write, submit, interact with readers, and go on with your day.

 

[KeithD]

I'll have to look it up, but I don't recall Laurel promising that chapters would be eliminated from forthcoming contests. As I recall, she said they hoped to have everything in place to do so by the following year.

I don't remember any administrative comment on this issue at all. Might as well just drop the Top Lists and save time and effort, though. I would think the purpose of the Top Lists is to help guide readers to (possibly) good reads for them. Who's going to pick up a series to read when Chapter 43 is what's seen on the Top List, though?

 

[KeithD]

Choose from:

Column A: Let them eat cake

or

Column B: Take it or leave it (but keep sending the product in for free)

 

[RejectReality]

Just because you choose to ignore the requested features that have been added and the defunct features that have been removed from the control panel doesn't mean it hasn't happened.

The changes related to separating chapter stories from standalone have been clicking into place for quite some time. They're just not all there yet.

 

[lovecraft68]

Choose from:

Column A: Let them eat cake

or

Column B: Take it or leave it (but keep sending the product in for free)

Yup, this sums it up.

 

[lovecraft68]

The site's needing massive work to accomplish anything because of the domino effect is a subject that earns no sympathy from me. Its this bad was it was neglected as long as possible and the recent upgrades were only made because the site was so antiquated it could no longer draw a younger more tech savvy crowd(us old farts are still okay with the basic design providing it at least works)

The promise of eliminating chapters from the Annuals(not monthlies) was made in the contest discussion thread beginning of last year or year before when influential author and other categories were all led by ongoing chapter stories and the argument was these are not complete meaning they're really not stories yet and shouldn't be eligible.

Passion project or not when one takes advertising one has now become a business. I don't for a second think this place is a huge income generator, but it makes money from sponsors and I imagine(admitted guessing, but it makes sense) makes a percentage on things sold in the stores that there are links to(or maybe all they make is the fee the store pays to be linked here, one way or another its $$$)

Except for the contests, the site spends nothing and could afford some updates and work along the way rather than pocketing everything along the way.

And just like voting gives a person the right to bitch about the government authors providing the content that draws the readers the advertisers are hoping to get traffic from have the right to make suggestions about what could make the site better and to be told the truth and not play this coy game of misleading people to placate them and have their site lackey try to shame people for wanting a little return(in functionality, not financially) for their contributions.

I didn't start this thread with any illusions something would be done, just showing how drastic the issue has become. Again I will call out the people who are now making money on patreon(and in the sites defense, I find this unfair to use their free platform to profit.) are doing it by getting donations and promising for that donation you get an advance look at their latest chapter.

if someone is even making a couple hundred a month here why would their series ever end. At 100 chapters you're not writing an actual story, you're milking the cash cow and spinning wheels to make money off readers.

Maybe Lit could make some money to upgrade by telling anyone using their site for Patreon income that they want a cut or see you later. Yes, I'm cut throat when it comes to business and $$$ just how I am.

 

[KeithD]

Couldn't care less about the hall of fame. I just like to read and post stories, and that goes very well in my case.

I just ignore it too. Only looked at the effect on the hubs list because someone else posted about it.

 

[SimonDoom]

Maybe Lit could make some money to upgrade by telling anyone using their site for Patreon income that they want a cut or see you later. Yes, I'm cut throat when it comes to business and $$$ just how I am.

I don't know enough about the site's economics, but my guess is this would be bad business. The key assets of this site are the size of its story inventory and its relative ease of use. I'm guessing cost-elasticity would be high. Make it just a little more difficult or a little more costly, and they'll lose more than they gain. By making this a free platform for some authors who use other platforms, they attract more authors. I'm guessing the benefit of that outweighs any gain they might get from any restrictions they put on authors. Just my guess.

 

[Bramblethorn]

There are fifty stories on the page. First number is chapter stories, second is stand alone.

...

Anal-36-24 (we have a winner!)

That should probably be either 36-14 or 26-24?

I do wonder how we ought to treat series where each installment is a complete story in its own right. (Think something like the James Bond franchise - you can dip into the "series" at any time and in any order.) I can see arguments for doing it either way.

 

[Zeb_Carter]

LC - Its also been discussed that a series can't rank until its complete then an average score is tallied and one chapter makes the list...that I can see being a lot work on the site's part and would not expect it.

Actually, that could be handled by a simple change to an SQL statement. There is an average function that would do it without too much trouble within the statement itself. Used to use it all the time. If the results return a single or multiple rows you get a number.

Now if they have a statement for each category... why they would do that is beyond reason... it might be time consuming to change. It should really be a single statement with parameters to be passed.

But, I'm not here to code their system for them... I just here to have a few laughs and hopefully turn some people on.

 

[KeithD]

That should probably be either 36-14 or 26-24?

I do wonder how we ought to treat series where each installment is a complete story in its own right. (Think something like the James Bond franchise - you can dip into the "series" at any time and in any order.) I can see arguments for doing it either way.

I did that in a Winter contest once. The stories flowed from each other but they were standalones as well. I started each title with the same two words, put in a colon, and then short slug titles that kept the series in intended order. They listed together, but not as chapters.

 

[Kantarii]

Yup, this sums it up.

Anyway, LC, I’m a huge fan of writing a chapter series since I view it as a chapter in my life from my personal diary. Now, i don’t read as much as I used to, but I don’t recall reading any book in my life that wasn’t chapter based.

Is that an unfair advantage on this site? I don’t think so. The first chapter in any series I’ve posted on this site gets the most views and proportionately decreases in views as each new chapter is posted with a few exceptions. Generally speaking, the ratings also tend to go up as only fans of the series are reading it, by say, chapter 3-7 if it’s an interesting, slowburn story. Now, some authors have learned the art of making single entries work for them, others have found chapters are a better route. So, when it comes to tagging and categorizing my stories, chapters make more sense to me.

I feel disconnected with authors who write one long story and am less inclined to read one posted on Lit unless it is posted in the contests because I rarely have the time to read a full story posted as a single entry.

Anyway I’m babbling, but I doubt I’ll ever post a standalone story on this site simply because when it leaves the headlines, it’s gone - like forever. Posting a story as chapters has a greater chance of picking up new readers, followers.
Kant

 

[RejectReality]

They certainly do have an advantage in the areas being discussed in the thread. The tendency for a chapter story to decline in views and rise in score ( save for the final chapter, which tends to buck the trend to some degree ) causes those middle chapters to have high scores that bump other stories out of the toplists.

When there are 5, 10, 15, or 100 of those chapters, it hides a lot of other stories from readers, and harms author visibility.

The suggestion has long been to treat serialized series as a whole for the purposes of toplist inclusion. That means that the 40 chapter story occupies only one spot on the toplist, instead of the 20-30 it might now hold. That opens up a huge swath of territory for other authors to gain new readers — including other, less known writers of chaptered stories.

It also creates a space for readers to find new favorite authors.

That same rising score effect causes monthly contests to disproportionately favor chaptered stories, which in turn affects what stories end up in the yearly awards. Middle chapters can bump one-shots and completed serials from these contests, and can win many times for the same ongoing story.

Having a series represented by its average or mean, rather than each individual chapter, opens up the same territory as in the toplist. It's also frequently argued that chapter stories should not even receive consideration for such awards until they are completed. The awards should be for stories, rather than pieces of stories, and that requires the story to end. ( at least, until the characters return for a sequel )

Anyway, LC, I’m a huge fan of writing a chapter series since I view it as a chapter in my life from my personal diary. Now, i don’t read as much as I used to, but I don’t recall reading any book in my life that wasn’t chapter based.

Is that an unfair advantage on this site? I don’t think so. The first chapter in any series I’ve posted on this site gets the most views and proportionately decreases in views as each new chapter is posted with a few exceptions. Generally speaking, the ratings also tend to go up as only fans of the series are reading it, by say, chapter 3-7 if it’s an interesting, slowburn story. Now, some authors have learned the art of making single entries work for them, others have found chapters are a better route. So, when it comes to tagging and categorizing my stories, chapters make more sense to me.

I feel disconnected with authors who write one long story and am less inclined to read one posted on Lit unless it is posted in the contests because I rarely have the time to read a full story posted as a single entry.

Anyway I’m babbling, but I doubt I’ll ever post a standalone story on this site simply because when it leaves the headlines, it’s gone - like forever. Posting a story as chapters has a greater chance of picking up new readers, followers.
Kant

 

[SimonDoom]

.. I just here to have a few laughs and hopefully turn some people on.

This is a healthy perspective.

 

[Blind_Justice]

I've had a look at the SF-F toplist since that category is my "home turf", and I'm shocked. That Tefler guy alone seems to occupy a majority of the spots, and even my best standalone work, with a frickin' 4.87, has no chance in Hell to ever crack that list, not with a 4.88 cutoff. I'm not easily discouraged, but that's enough to make me bite a few sizable chunks out of my desk.

 

[ElectricBlue]

I've had a look at the SF-F toplist since that category is my "home turf", and I'm shocked. That Tefler guy alone seems to occupy a majority of the spots, and even my best standalone work, with a frickin' 4.87, has no chance in Hell to ever crack that list, not with a 4.88 cutoff. I'm not easily discouraged, but that's enough to make me bite a few sizable chunks out of my desk.

Makes the Top Lists a bit of a nonsense, really. I've never bothered looking there for anything.

Good luck to the writers there - but a stand-alone story list would be nice, I agree.

 

[TxRad]

Makes the Top Lists a bit of a nonsense, really. I've never bothered looking there for anything.

Good luck to the writers there - but a stand-alone story list would be nice, I agree.

Stand alone story list and unfinished story list. That might raise a few eyebrows.

 

[FEELINGLUCKYPUNK]

I navigate life doing what works, most nifty new ideas fail. I have a theory about it: Good ideas are as common as new prime numbers. Mostly new ideas involve a fool and his money.

But LIT is the worst of both worlds: Management has no new ideas and no clue about what works.

 

[oggbashan]

Stand alone story list and unfinished story list. That might raise a few eyebrows.

Unfinished story list?

I've been working my way through my list of submissions and have reduced the unfinished series to one: Fiona, that needs an ending. Miranda the Witch needs a sequel.

There are others for which I could write more episodes.

But on my hard drive? Hundreds of the bloody things!

 

[TxRad]

Unfinished story list?

I've been working my way through my list of submissions and have reduced the unfinished series to one: Fiona, that needs an ending. Miranda the Witch needs a sequel.

There are others for which I could write more episodes.

But on my hard drive? Hundreds of the bloody things!

Ogg, I was referring to the chaptered story list as being called the unfinished story list because chapters are not complete stories.