The European Union - Is It Really Democratic?

[RepressedCatholic]

I would say no.

Check most countries in the EU and the vast majority of political parties are pro-EU. If you are anti-EU you are left only with the political fringe and mainly the racist far right. And even if you find a non racist anti-EU party the political mainstream gang up to vilify it.

So when you come to vote on it what choice do you have? Is it any surprise that voter turnout is so low?

And even within the EU there is little real democracy. The EC (European Commission) are unelected bureaucrats who think they only answer to politicians who agree with their views.

No wonder Europe is seeing the problems it is and the worrying resurgence of the far right even in countries who were considered amongst the most liberal in the world.

On the plus side we don't have the alt-right mob and all the other intolerant fanatics the US has.

RC

 

[where_is_RUTH]

All voting systems are flawed. That's without considering the fuckwits voting.

However, you work with what you have (voting systems that is).

Many of the EU bodies were set up with good intentions post WWII, and are open to scrutiny if not actual elected.

The alternative of google/amazon/apple mega Corp angers me way more than any perceived undemocratic nature of the EU.

but at least you're Irish (I'm going to guess Southern) Britain is currently managing to fuck itself and shoot itself in the foot... Go figure.

 

[RepressedCatholic]

All voting systems are flawed. That's without considering the fuckwits voting.

However, you work with what you have (voting systems that is).

Many of the EU bodies were set up with good intentions post WWII, and are open to scrutiny if not actual elected.

The alternative of google/amazon/apple mega Corp angers me way more than any perceived undemocratic nature of the EU.

but at least you're Irish (I'm going to guess Southern) Britain is currently managing to fuck itself and shoot itself in the foot... Go figure.

Yes, I'm Irish but I live in the UK so am seeing how the politicians here are screwing up BREXIT royally. Still, being Irish I automatically have the right to live in the UK even if EU citizens were stripped of that right post-BREXIT and, if the worst comes to the worst, I can always move back to Ireland.

Being self-employed has it's advantages!

RC

 

[DeYaKen]

No. for the following reasons.

The European Parliament can only vote yes or no on any legislation put forward by the European Commission. They have no power to amend the legislation. The commissioners are appointed by the member states, they are not elected.

If the parliament rejects the legislation it goes back to the unelected commission who may modify it or more likely, it goes into "Tri-Partite" Representatives of the Elected Parliament and the Unelected commision get together with members of the unelected Council of Ministers to thrash out a compromise. What we see here is that the unelected outnumber the elected two to one.

As this process goes round and round we end up with legislation that is the closest to the desires of the unelected body that the elected body is willing to tolerate. It is also why so much of what comes out of the EU is ambiguous and open to interpretation. Most European countries are used to this and interpret the rules to suit themselves.

 

[oggbashan]

If an EU country's electorate votes against an EU proposal the EU asks them to vote again until they get the 'correct' answer.

That happened with majorities against the Lisbon treaty in France, The Netherlands and Ireland. They were all forced to reconsider their rejection.

That is what the EU want the UK to do - to have another vote about Brexit.

 

[DeYaKen]

If an EU country's electorate votes against an EU proposal the EU asks them to vote again until they get the 'correct' answer.

That happened with majorities against the Lisbon treaty in France, The Netherlands and Ireland. They were all forced to reconsider their rejection.

That is what the EU want the UK to do - to have another vote about Brexit.

Forced is a strong word. No country was forced to do anything. Their own governments called second referenda because the alternative would have been to leave the EU.

You are falling for the myth that everything is dictated by Brussels. When asked which laws had been forced on Britain, against the will of Parliament, David Davies, a leading Brexiteer, had to admit that there weren't any.

Many people in Britain want a second referendum this is not unreasonable since before the referendum Nigel Farage said: "If the vote is anything less than 60/40 I'd say we have unfinished business."

The EU has been remarkably quiet on the possibility of a second referendum. To date, their stance has been that it is a matter for the British people which it is.

Unless you have the ability to read minds, I don't think you are in a position to say what the EU wants.

 

[oggbashan]

...

Unless you have the ability to read minds, I don't think you are in a position to say what the EU wants.

Read minds? No.

Read reports of statements by many European politicians or 'leaks' from senior figures particularly French ones? Yes.

Foreign language media is often more direct than UK sources.

 

[BotanyBoy]

Unless you have the ability to read minds, I don't think you are in a position to say what the EU wants.

You and baddoggie both pump this bull-fucking-shit line all the time.

You don't have to be able to read minds, just the news.

 

[DeYaKen]

Read minds? No.

Read reports of statements by many European politicians or 'leaks' from senior figures particularly French ones? Yes.

Foreign language media is often more direct than UK sources.

Find me a single source where an EU official has called for a second referendum.

 

[oggbashan]

Find me a single source where an EU official has called for a second referendum.

The most recent one:

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/pol...ll-for-second-brexit-referendum-a3941831.html

From another source:

Speaking to the BBC, Maltese Prime Minister Joseph Musact revealed there was “almost unanimous” support among EU leaders for Britain to hold a second referendum on membership of the union. Similar comments were made by the Czech Prime Minister Andrej Babis.

 

[Kirkrapine]

The EU is as democratic or as undemocratic as its constituent states.

 

[oggbashan]

The EU is as democratic or as undemocratic as its constituent states.

It is more than that. The EU administration itself is unelected and has more power than the EU Parliament. The MEPs - Members of the European Parliament - have very little influence or impact despite being directly elected by constituents.

The appointment of Martin Selmayr has led to criticism that the EU has broken its own rules:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-45407247

 

[DeYaKen]

The most recent one:

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/pol...ll-for-second-brexit-referendum-a3941831.html

From another source:

Speaking to the BBC, Maltese Prime Minister Joseph Musact revealed there was “almost unanimous” support among EU leaders for Britain to hold a second referendum on membership of the union. Similar comments were made by the Czech Prime Minister Andrej Babis.

You know, and the Evening Standard (Edited by one of the men who caused the mess we are in) knows That neither the Czech Prime Minister and the Prime minister of Malta are EU officials. They represent only their own countries not the whole 27 other nations of the EU. In the case of the article it is clear that they are expressing personal opinions. They are not even speaking on behalf of their countries.

To clarify only officials of the European Commission can speak for the EU.

I repeat find me a single source where an EU official has called for a second referendum.

 

[DeYaKen]

The EU is as democratic or as undemocratic as its constituent states.

That is definitely not the case. Both the Council of Ministers and the European Commision are appointed not elected and they are allocated per country not according to population. In reality it is less democratic than the US Senate. I believe that in the Senate each state has two senators irrespective of the population of the state. The commission and Council are similar, the difference is that Senators are elected. Commissioners and Council Ministers are not.

 

[oggbashan]

...

To clarify only officials of the European Commission can speak for the EU.

I repeat find me a single source where an EU official has called for a second referendum.

Juncker:

Evening Standard again:

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/pol...ould-rejoin-eu-using-article-49-a3742286.html

https://www.channelnewsasia.com/new...d-like-britain-rejoin-eu-after-brexit-9869516

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/vide...u-k-to-reverse-brexit-catastrophe-video-video

Tusk:

https://news.sky.com/story/donald-tusk-tells-uk-you-can-still-stop-brexit-11096219

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...brexit-idea-in-tweet-on-johnson-idUSKBN1JZ1TA

http://uk.businessinsider.com/donald-tusk-says-brexit-can-still-be-stopped-2018-1

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id...QICRAB#v=onepage&q=tusk**0on**0brexit&f=false

 

[DeYaKen]

Juncker:

Evening Standard again:

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/pol...ould-rejoin-eu-using-article-49-a3742286.html

https://www.channelnewsasia.com/new...d-like-britain-rejoin-eu-after-brexit-9869516

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/vide...u-k-to-reverse-brexit-catastrophe-video-video

Tusk:

https://news.sky.com/story/donald-tusk-tells-uk-you-can-still-stop-brexit-11096219

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...brexit-idea-in-tweet-on-johnson-idUSKBN1JZ1TA

http://uk.businessinsider.com/donald-tusk-says-brexit-can-still-be-stopped-2018-1

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id...QICRAB#v=onepage&q=tusk**0on**0brexit&f=false

To be honest Og I am disappointed in you. You are normally a chap who reads the stuff he links to, but you certainly can't have done here.
Having ploughed through all of your links I cannot find a single call for a second referendum.

In the press conference which is the subject of the first group, Junker states that AFTER Brexit the United Kingdom would always be welcome to rejoin the EU. Surely that is the opposite of calling for a second referendum. He is saying after you've done it and maybe found that it was a mistake we will still welcome you back. That actually reduces the pressure for a second referendum rather than increases it.

Tusks statements are reiterations of statements made in Britain ever since the referendum. He thinks article 50 is reversible which he says leaves room for The British Government to change their mind. At no point did he mention the British People. He was saying that with the exit of Johnson and Davies there was room for a change of heart by the Government.

It is no secret that the EU and most of its constituent states do not want us to leave. It would significantly weaken them as a trading Bloc. However, so far, The EU has not tried to interfere in our handling of the matter. Many Europeans have expressed their opinions and tried to persuade us to stay but what they have done is no more than Donald Trump has done in the opposite direction.

 

[RepressedCatholic]

The EU is at a critical stage now.

The Swedish government has just collapsed thanks to a no confidence motion supported by the neo-Nazi Swedish Democrats.

The German government is continually on the verge of collapsing because of issues between the 2 coalition partners (it took ages for them to even form a coalition) and the neo-Nazi AfD getting more and more votes and MPs.

Belgium took more than a year to form a government recently.

Denmark and Holland are reportedly having issues with the far right getting more votes. The same in France where a neo-Nazi managed to get through to the last round of the Presidential election last time around and, despite all the major parties deciding to support Macron, STILL got nearly a third of the vote.

Hungary and Poland are currently under threat of legal action from the EU because of "undemocratic actions". The irony of this is not lost on me.

Austria has the neo-Nazis in a coalition government.

Spain and Greece have seen a major surge in support for both the far left and far right with the far left Syriza in power in Greece and Podemos on the verge of power in Spain. Mariano Rajoy has recently been voted out as PM over corruption allegations.

Italy has a populist right wing, Nationalist party as the largest party in parliament with the Italian president vetoing their candidate for Prime Minister.

And yet the EU and the EC seem blind to all this with an insistence that "more integration" is the answer. In other words, they want less and less democracy and more and more autocracy.

It will all end in tears IMHO.

RC

 

[ishtat]

Be Patient. Just wait for the interest rates on borrowed money to governments to go up a couple or three percent. Italy, Spain, Greece, Portugal, Ireland, and several of the eastern states will be unable to finance their day to day needs - even France will suffer.

Germany the Benelux countries and Scandinavia will not bail the Southerners out. When this happens - and it will happen, you will have a European Dis-Union.

It will make Brexit look like a picnic.

And a note to DeYaKen - Og is running rings around you - and he's barely trying.