Thoughts About Writing Incest

[Carnal_Flower]

I love Anais Nin. Her few (very few) father daughter incest tales were the first explicit D/d tales I ever encountered, and I'm not sure they aren't some of the first historically. You see all kinds of family incest in Victorian erotica, but never parent/child, it's usually cousins or (more rarely) sibcest. There may possibly be some D/d in Sade which I've never read. There's an uncle here and there in Victoriana. But I can't think of any father daughter until hers in the 1940s or whenever it was she was writing. I could be wrong.

Her real life affair with her father freaks me out, though. Ew. I love her journals but that one is not my fave.

Again, just expressing my opinion, but reading Anais Nin's journals- specifically the one edited and published as Incest: From a Journal of Love, detailing her (adult) incestuous relationship with her father- encouraged me to write. Writing became the first form of privacy I could control. My mother came from a generation that actively hid reports of incest occurring in upper to middle class white families, to make it seem like an issue only for poor minorities. It took many people speaking up about their experiences to shed light on an epidemic.
Now it's come full circle and is back in pop culture again (since there's nothing new about wanting to bang your mom)- usually to show a deep lack of morals within a character, though it's still eroticized.

 

[Alice_Rosaleen]

Leaving My Father's House is a book that uses a Grimm's fairy tale called Allerleirauh (published as Donkey Skin in the 18th century) about father/daughter incest as a framework to talk about feminist issues including incest abuse. Marquis de Sade wrote a not-as-graphic-as-usual novel about a father who grooms his daughter her entire life to have no qualms about incest and be his perfect lover. It seems to be a long rooted problem, but it's still viewed as more "acceptable" to be a Daddy's Girl than a Mommy's Boy.

 

[Zeb_Carter]

Incest. Incest has been one of my biggest sellers in the eBook market place.

Also, my current serialized Incest/Taboo story here, Fraternal Twins, is one of the highest rated I have ever published here.

Although I have never participated in an incestuous relationship nor do I read incest stories, I look at it and write about it as two or more people who are in love and just happen to call each other Mom/Son/Daughter/Dad/whatever.

 

[goodsonformom]

For me, not so much 'fun' as 'challenging'. I write but don't read incest because not interested. Incest stories are puzzle-pieces to construct. How to somewhat believably and entertainingly break the ultimate taboo?

My goals (when I write) are to 1) grab eyeballs and 2) affect folks. LIT's best targets thus are LW and Incest but too many LW reader reactions suck. Group tolerates a lot and gets good reactions but fewer views. So I try to write eye-grabbers filled with asides and notions and quirks and flavorful irrelevancies. The incest is merely the vehicle. The story is elsewhere.

In my pieces, kin fuck because they're stoned or triggered or demon-driven or accidental, not because they set out to fuck kin. Mostly. Cousins can be on the edge but cousins aren't really incest, not in much of the world. Or incest goes unexplained; fucking happens; consequences do or don't follow.

It's cheap entertainment, not moral philosophy. This is LIT. It's all fucking. Siblings are expected to fuck. Women are expected to be bi. Everyone is comely or studly and many love anal. Women who go Black never go back. Men sport classic hard-ons longly and refresh quickly. Women drip, squirt, and scream. Aliens and mythical critters abound. Boys fuck their MILF moms and GILF grandmas, twin sisters, horny neighbor women, and hamadryads.

Reality is elsewhere. Don't look too hard.

Good post Hypoxia.......to some degree I agree with your statement...."incest is merely the vehicle. The story is elsewhere." And in many cases "It's cheap entertainment, not moral philosophy." Of course it is, but not always.

I'm not as a prolific reader of incest on Lit as I should be, given my own strong feelings regarding the subject, but there are a few writers who weave a compelling tale of family love and incest. "Reality is elsewhere," is the well from which many of us draw our inspiration.

I can say, drawing from my own "well"...... the very first time I accidentally saw my mother dressed in a open bottomed girdle with her mound exposed and breasts bare, left a lasting vision that was incredibly arousing for me. The fact that she did not hide herself, and treated the occurrence in an openly natural way, created my incredible desire for her. I know my reaction to her nakedness, created much the same for her as well......

So while my stories tend to be ones of fucking, sucking, etc.....my ultimate aim is to bring real emotion, pain, fear, romance, and loss into my story, because those components are real.....

 

[goodsonformom]

Leaving My Father's House is a book that uses a Grimm's fairy tale called Allerleirauh (published as Donkey Skin in the 18th century) about father/daughter incest as a framework to talk about feminist issues including incest abuse. Marquis de Sade wrote a not-as-graphic-as-usual novel about a father who grooms his daughter her entire life to have no qualms about incest and be his perfect lover. It seems to be a long rooted problem, but it's still viewed as more "acceptable" to be a Daddy's Girl than a Mommy's Boy.

Really? Why is that more acceptable?

 

[SimonDoom]

Really? Why is that more acceptable?

Biology.

Older man-younger woman makes sense biologically/culturally because the younger woman is more likely to be at prime child-bearing years and the older man is more likely to be able to take care of her. Theoretically this can apply to a father-daughter situation.

Mom-son makes no sense biologically or culturally.

But in the Literotica world it's reversed; mom-son is more popular than father-daughter.

 

[Alice_Rosaleen]

Really? Why is that more acceptable?

Well, not to go on a feminist tangent but often in a patriarchal society, boys are encouraged to break away from their mothers in order to become a strong man/husband, while girls are encouraged to be obedient to their fathers in order to become good woman/mother. I'm not saying this is always the case, but just look at clothing- you'll often find onesies that say Mama's Boy, but try finding a Mama's Boy shirt for men. You'll find plenty of Daddy's Girl shirts for women, because it's even an acceptable kink.

 

[goodsonformom]

Well, not to go on a feminist tangent but often in a patriarchal society, boys are encouraged to break away from their mothers in order to become a strong man/husband, while girls are encouraged to be obedient to their fathers in order to become good woman/mother. I'm not saying this is always the case, but just look at clothing- you'll often find onesies that say Mama's Boy, but try finding a Mama's Boy shirt for men. You'll find plenty of Daddy's Girl shirts for women, because it's even an acceptable kink.

I believe taking a feminist position on this issue is completely valid. Maybe I'm not as simple, but rather complicated as a male regarding feminism. I was raised in a family of strong women, so maybe my perspective regarding incest and women is different, but yes I agree with the politics.

I do question the Mama's Boy philosophy to some degree. Again this comes from my perspective and personal experiences.

 

[Alice_Rosaleen]

Biology.

Older man-younger woman makes sense biologically/culturally because the younger woman is more likely to be at prime child-bearing years and the older man is more likely to be able to take care of her. Theoretically this can apply to a father-daughter situation.

Mom-son makes no sense biologically or culturally.

But in the Literotica world it's reversed; mom-son is more popular than father-daughter.

Good points, Simon.

The bro/sis incest series I'm working on now is actually, for the most part, just a light hearted sex romp with romantic undertones. They've had a normal childhood and all three (well, one brother is now back home with the wife, leaving his younger siblings to stir up their own trouble) share a close sibling bond. Now I'm just trying to decide if the remaining brother and sister will have foursome with their parents or a random exhibitionist couple...

 

[Alice_Rosaleen]

I believe taking a feminist position on this issue is completely valid. Maybe I'm not as simple, but rather complicated as a male regarding feminism. I was raised in a family of strong women, so maybe my perspective regarding incest and women is different, but yes I agree with the politics.

I do question the Mama's Boy philosophy to some degree. Again this comes from my perspective and personal experiences.

I don't agree with the politics either, and I do see this dynamic changing as standards of femininity and masculinity evolve. I'm one of those women that actually gets along better with men in general (though my closest friends are women) and prefers to be with a very masculine guy (though this doesn't mean alpha male), so my feminist observations are never from a place of bashing men. I'd be very unhappy without them.

 

[Carnal_Flower]

There's certainly a huge male audience for Incest on lit.

Personally I think that's because there's BDSM and Non-Con. That's where the huge female audience is.

Biology.

Older man-younger woman makes sense biologically/culturally because the younger woman is more likely to be at prime child-bearing years and the older man is more likely to be able to take care of her. Theoretically this can apply to a father-daughter situation.

Mom-son makes no sense biologically or culturally.

But in the Literotica world it's reversed; mom-son is more popular than father-daughter.

 

[lovecraft68]

Well, not to go on a feminist tangent but often in a patriarchal society, boys are encouraged to break away from their mothers in order to become a strong man/husband, while girls are encouraged to be obedient to their fathers in order to become good woman/mother. I'm not saying this is always the case, but just look at clothing- you'll often find onesies that say Mama's Boy, but try finding a Mama's Boy shirt for men. You'll find plenty of Daddy's Girl shirts for women, because it's even an acceptable kink.

Something I've noticed here is the occasional backlash of how I tend to write my 'sons'

See for me I think there is a power dynamic in mother/son. The mother is not just an older and far more experienced lover, but she's his mother. A boy is conditioned to listen to, respect his mom.

Now unless there's a specific device(blackmail, bdsm etc) the average mom son sex would be mom taking the reigns. I don't mean femdom style, but more along the lines of of dictating pace and things like, "That feels good, baby, but know where it would feel better?"

Now in my milf stories I do the same. I'm sorry, but I don't buy 19/20 year old boys being able to take charge over a 44 year old milf/cougar so I write in the same style, she's in charge.

Keep in mind in my stories these boys get the rides of a life time and their brains fucked out. A good time is had by all.

Yet...I get "Your characters are wimps.fags/cucks can't you write a real man etc...

This is the result of porn sites drawing a faction of misogynistic male audience who is not happy with anything other than women being giggling cum dumpsters or bitch get on your knees.

And I know I generalize. There's young men who are confident and can hold their own so to speak. I was very sexually precocious in my teens, but that was due to being introduced to an older woman with BDSM lifestyle at an age we can't tak about here. I wasn't typical.

 

[goodsonformom]

I don't agree with the politics either, and I do see this dynamic changing as standards of femininity and masculinity evolve. I'm one of those women that actually gets along better with men in general (though my closest friends are women) and prefers to be with a very masculine guy (though this doesn't mean alpha male), so my feminist observations are never from a place of bashing men. I'd be very unhappy without them.

I should clarify my statement, when I said I agree with the politics, I meant to say I understand the politics and the prevailing common wisdom. But I don't agree with it.

I will add I always have gotten along with women, and in many cases far better than many men, although my best friends are men. I've been told I have a strong feminine side by many women, and they feel a common bond with me, which I see as an asset. I can see why you like masculine, non alpha males, I prefer strong women who also have a confident submissive side to them......I don't buy into the typical male perspective about bashing women based on gender. We are all human, but clearly different biologically, with all the good things that brings. It's always been my position to embrace the differences, not to focus on the perceived short comings of either gender......

 

[eruditeaphrodite]

In my opinion, intra-familial sexual behavior on the sibling level is almost always a condition of hyper-sexuality and raging hormones. When a parent or other adult is involved it's more a narcissistic lust. Sexual play among cousins is pretty common I think.

 

[Alice_Rosaleen]

It's always been my position to embrace the differences, not to focus on the perceived short comings of either gender......

That's an excellent way of putting it.
My eldest brother, who passed when he was younger than I am now, was a positive male influence in my life. His strength came from compassion, though after years of suffering from cancer even his spirit became defeated. I actually can't bring myself to base any character on him, even in the vaguest sense- but in every kind and loving male character I write, he lives on.

 

[goodsonformom]

Something I've noticed here is the occasional backlash of how I tend to write my 'sons'

See for me I think there is a power dynamic in mother/son. The mother is not just an older and far more experienced lover, but she's his mother. A boy is conditioned to listen to, respect his mom.

Now unless there's a specific device(blackmail, bdsm etc) the average mom son sex would be mom taking the reigns. I don't mean femdom style, but more along the lines of of dictating pace and things like, "That feels good, baby, but know where it would feel better?"

Now in my milf stories I do the same. I'm sorry, but I don't buy 19/20 year old boys being able to take charge over a 44 year old milf/cougar so I write in the same style, she's in charge.

Keep in mind in my stories these boys get the rides of a life time and their brains fucked out. A good time is had by all.

Yet...I get "Your characters are wimps.fags/cucks can't you write a real man etc...

This is the result of porn sites drawing a faction of misogynistic male audience who is not happy with anything other than women being giggling cum dumpsters or bitch get on your knees.

And I know I generalize. There's young men who are confident and can hold their own so to speak. I was very sexually precocious in my teens, but that was due to being introduced to an older woman with BDSM lifestyle at an age we can't tak about here. I wasn't typical.

Ilovecraft, apologize for not as yet having read your work, I will. I promise as your opinions intrigue me.

I agree with your assessment of what seems to be the typical male audience, is driven by misogynistic male thinking holding to the perceived traditional, mommy's a cum dump, or the son is a sissy, etc.

Your words about you at an early age are real, and maybe more broadly experienced that we might be lead to believe. I have not shared much about me on this thread, but have hinted elsewhere. Because of my inexperience, I appeared to be and was more submissive, but I was tutored and nurtured to be a strong confident male and lover of my mother.

 

[Alice_Rosaleen]

In my opinion, intra-familial sexual behavior on the sibling level is almost always a condition of hyper-sexuality and raging hormones. When a parent or other adult is involved it's more a narcissistic lust. Sexual play among cousins is pretty common I think.

Very true- narcissism plays a huge role in parent/child. Sibling relationships can be abusive, especially in an abusive household, but it's generally more mutual. Kissing cousins is just a rite of passage in some parts.
Not quite sure about dirty uncles and tempting aunts- they're sort of like a mix of all of the above.

 

[goodsonformom]

Very true- narcissism plays a huge role in parent/child. Sibling relationships can be abusive, especially in an abusive household, but it's generally more mutual. Kissing cousins is just a rite of passage in some parts.
Not quite sure about dirty uncles and tempting aunts- they're sort of like a mix of all of the above.

Naughty uncles are naughty.

 

[lovecraft68]

Very true- narcissism plays a huge role in parent/child. Sibling relationships can be abusive, especially in an abusive household, but it's generally more mutual. Kissing cousins is just a rite of passage in some parts.
Not quite sure about dirty uncles and tempting aunts- they're sort of like a mix of all of the above.

Double standard I know but

Aunt's are seen as hot and honestly I need to do more with them. An aunt is a sexy older woman and is still incest, but one step removed which makes her as much a milf, but with that taboo intact.

Other hand...Uncles are goddamn creepy, Maybe I feel that way because I grew up with those Uncle Chester the Molester jokes and many times it is an uncle abusing a young child in real life.

 

[Alice_Rosaleen]

Double standard I know but

Aunt's are seen as hot and honestly I need to do more with them. An aunt is a sexy older woman and is still incest, but one step removed which makes her as much a milf, but with that taboo intact.

Other hand...Uncles are goddamn creepy, Maybe I feel that way because I grew up with those Uncle Chester the Molester jokes and many times it is an uncle abusing a young child in real life.

Lol- Does Uncle Chester have a molestache?
In my experience Uncles can be creepy or sexy. And older second cousins once removed (who for years as an adult lived alone with his sister) that proposition you and your mother while visiting one night.

 

[SimonDoom]

It surprises me how older women are always portrayed as 'ripe', strong and beautiful, while older men are (almost) always creepy.

This might be true in the comments people make about incest stories, but it's not true in the stories themselves. There are plenty of father-daughter stories in which the father is not portrayed as creepy.

It's not surprising that, outside the stories themselves, this attitude persists, because many are uncomfortable with the power dynamic in incestuous relationships, and that power dynamic is more obviously problematic in the case of the father and daughter than in the case of the mother and son.

 

[lovecraft68]

It surprises me how older women are always portrayed as 'ripe', strong and beautiful, while older men are (almost) always creepy.

I don't see that, but don't read a whole lot here either. If anything I see the guys still in great shape with solid abs and full heads of hair. No beer guts, love handles, bald spots...

And the 40+ women could all pass for 30....

Porn is age defying

But more seriously to your point. "Creepy" I think depends on what the reader is getting from it or projecting onto it.

 

[RejectReality]

There is absolutely a double standard, putting older men in the "creepy" category when they're the active party. Doesn't just apply to incest, but to age-difference stories as well.

If the younger woman/daughter/niece is the hunter, and he's the prey, you usually don't run afoul of it. If they're both on the hunt equally, and that's obvious before they hook up, you can escape the double standard. Even then, if he makes the first move, you can still run afoul of it. The line can be pretty narrow.

Reverse it, making the woman the older half of the equation, and it doesn't matter who is the hunter and who is the hunted.

 

[lovecraft68]

There is absolutely a double standard, putting older men in the "creepy" category when they're the active party. Doesn't just apply to incest, but to age-difference stories as well.

If the younger woman/daughter/niece is the hunter, and he's the prey, you usually don't run afoul of it. If they're both on the hunt equally, and that's obvious before they hook up, you can escape the double standard. Even then, if he makes the first move, you can still run afoul of it. The line can be pretty narrow.

Reverse it, making the woman the older half of the equation, and it doesn't matter who is the hunter and who is the hunted.

I've only written a couple of pieces that could be called romances. One of them was older guy/young woman. The guy was in no way creep, he was respectful. sweet and in the end the girl had to be the aggressor because by his admission later he would never have made a move or expressed his feelings because he ws afraid of looking like a dirty old man.

One of the comments on the story "Blah blah blah dirty old man with money gets the hot girl"

Readers have predetermined ideas that nothing we can do is ever going to shake.

 

[SimonDoom]

This discussion seems kind of abstract. I'd like to see some references to actual evidence. Do father-daughter stories where father is the instigator do badly because readers think they're creepy? I have no idea. My impression of most of these stories is that daughter is the aggressor. But that's based on my very incomplete knowledge of the relevant stories here.