Climate continues to change.

[Que]

Farmland is cooler than desert, desert is cooler than developed property.

It's like trying to explain something to a petulant 5 year old. I'm sure that you know everything about California by virtue of you living there.

How do you explain Frodo's knowledge of his version of the climate religion given the fact that he only resides where it is he resides in doesn't live in the entire world that he professes to have knowledge of?

 

[Luk]

Farmland is cooler than desert, desert is cooler than developed property.

It's like trying to explain something to a petulant 5 year old. I'm sure that you know everything about California by virtue of you living there.

How do you explain Frodo's knowledge of his version of the climate religion given the fact that he only resides where it is he resides in doesn't live in the entire world that he professes to have knowledge of?

I know way more about Califonia climate, farmland, and history than you. By far. Why not just STFU and let me educate instead of being an indignant dumbfuck?

 

[Richard_P_Feynman]

Your sig fig argument was shite then, and it's still shite now. Maybe you'd prefer to see the numbers in hexadecimal instead. Then they'd look so much better.

From what I remember, Que failed to understand what significant figures are and why they're important, in the first place.

 

[benschup]

I'm not sure what that's supposed to mean but you make as much sense and are as on point as Q-Bert. Kudos!

Methane gas. one cow =250 to 500 liters per day. Livestock is the largest source worldwide.

 

[cheesehead2]

I know way more about Califonia climate, farmland, and history than you. By far. Why not just STFU and let me educate instead of being an indignant dumbfuck?

California largest milk producer. Most cows in the US. Most Methane gas produced by livestock in the US. Methane gas is the cause for around 25% of warming. Wisconsin is number two. Drink more beer like we do. Do your part. Thanks.

 

[Luk]

California largest milk producer. Most cows in the US. Most Methane gas produced by livestock in the US. Methane gas is the cause for around 25% of warming. Wisconsin is number two. Drink more beer like we do. Do your part. Thanks.

Dude, it's California. We drink beer infused milk, yo.

 

[FGB]

Have you fuck ups ANY ideal how much methane bubbles up from the land and water of this planet?

And I might add it is increasing as the earth gets warmer far as we can tell.

Cattle ...You are worrying about a fart in a whirlwind!

 

[Que]

Your sig fig argument was shite then, and it's still shite now. Maybe you'd prefer to see the numbers in hexadecimal instead. Then they'd look so much better.

Better, how?

You just thought you throw hexadecimal in there 'cause it sounded all mathematical right?

When gathering data and reporting the results it doesn't matter what you use for a numbering system. You could have all the data collected, collated and reported by a six-fingered man using a base 11 numbering system and it still wouldn't change the problem of reporting an inacurately precise conclusion that would require a much greater degree of certitude about the underlying data points.

 

[phrodeau]

Have you fuck ups ANY ideal how much methane bubbles up from the land and water of this planet?

And I might add it is increasing as the earth gets warmer far as we can tell.

Cattle ...You are worrying about a fart in a whirlwind!

Oh, it's pretty clear where all the gas is coming from.

https://icp.giss.nasa.gov/education/methane/intro/methanesources.gif

The animal waste and enteric fermentation segments are mainly from cattle.

 

[Que]

Oh, it's pretty clear where all the gas is coming from.

https://icp.giss.nasa.gov/education/methane/intro/methanesources.gif

The animal waste and enteric fermentation segments are mainly from cattle.

Have you switched to soy, or are you of the reformed alarmist faith?

 

[phrodeau]

Have you switched to soy, or are you of the reformed alarmist faith?

I don't drink milk. I was weaned ages ago.

You?

 

[FGB]

Yeah,Right.

I have seen methane bubbling up from rivers, creek, ponds, and,lakes continuously all my life. Hell out in the sticks where I was raised the front yard domed up about six inches for weeks at the time... an oil company had to cap off a well and declare it a dry hole because of the high gas pressure (methane) blowing it out so many times.

You can bet None of that is factored in except as a guess, if at all. then there is natural gas leaks in the earth. Hell, Giant blowholes are happening in Russia probably all over the artic as the tundra thaws and the oceans are warming releasing vast amounts so go ahead and worry about cows farting, never mind the millions of Bison that are no longer here producing methane.

Them Cows are killing us!

 

[The Heretic]

Have not read the whole thread - my time here is short today and then I will be gone for who knows how long, but...

I think that maybe many in this thread are missing the bigger picture.

Climate change is just a symptom of the bigger problem.

Carrying capacity.

The math for carrying capacity is very simple and impossible to argue against.

First, the root cause: human population growth. Does anybody disagree that the population is growing and will continue to keep growing for the foreseeable future?

https://fruitworldmedia.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/population-growth.jpg

Does anybody disagree that the supply of land, air and potable water is finite?

Does anybody disagree that for each new human, there is then less land (especially arable land), air and water for each person?

Does everybody see that at least theoretically, our current primary sources of energy are finite and limited? I agree, that this could be a matter for debate, but the primary sources of energy are petroleum, coal and hydroelectric. Solar and wind are limited now, and cannot be expanded without use of current energy and natural resources which are limited.

Some argue that we are already past the tipping point for carrying capacity and that it is just a matter of a few decades before we get to the point where the number of people dying from lack of food, water and energy will exceed the number of people being born. At which point, we will see a large die off of humans, not in the millions, but in the billions. And it won't be pleasant.

So go on arguing about the sources of climate change and ignoring the big picture until it smacks you in the face that the problem is us, whether it is climate change, over-fishing and pollution of the oceans, over reliance on petroleum and coal, the fact that the very land that we used to use for growing food is gradually disappearing as it is being paved and buildings covering it.

Ignore the fact we are depleting our sources of potable water much faster than it can be replaced (even here in the PacificNorthWet, we have had droughts, and more importantly, our primary sources of water - the aquifers, not just the reservoirs are being drained and one wet season won't replenish them, it will take hundreds of years to refill them).

Ignore the fact that food and water and land and energy are taking more and more of our income to buy because there is less and less water, land and energy to produce the food, and just as crucially, the small family farms are being bought up and replaced by larger corporation farms because the corporations see the future, and the profit (and control) is in land and food.

In short, the long term prospects for humankind is not pretty.

http://www.paulchefurka.ca/Overshoot_2.png

Happy New Year

 

[Que]

You are right on. Especially about potable water. It is the biggest limiting factor. That's solvable with nuclear power and desalinization.

Paces with abundant natural rainfall like the Pacific Northwest are going to go at a tremendous premium in the future.

 

[The Heretic]

You are right on. Especially about potable water. It is the biggest limiting factor. That's solvable with nuclear power and desalinization.

Nuclear power is not politically feasible, has problems with waste and I am not sure as to how efficient/economical it would be with regards to desalinization. As far as I know, only those regions where there is no other choice use desalinization.

Places with abundant natural rainfall like the Pacific Northwest are going to go at a tremendous premium in the future.

And the climate is changing while we waste the water we do have.

Here on the mountain I get twice the rainfall the valley does (I have a rain gauge) and I live in the one corner of Orygun that did not have a drought until recently. My neighbors had to spend thousands to have their well pump dropped because the aquifer they tapped into is dropping. Mine did not - I am at 80/120 feet while they are down about 400', which maybe means we hit different pockets of water in the rock, maybe a totally different aquifer.

Rainfall is year to year. Reservoirs depend on year to year rain and snowfall.

Aquifers OTOH are generally very deep in the ground and it takes many years for the precipitation to percolate down to the aquifers. Most precipitation drains off the watershed and goes down into rivers which eventually drain into the oceans. Not a lot of it goes back into the aquifers. Only some of it fills the reservoirs and when they are full, then the overflow is released - so most of it is 'wasted'.

Agricultural irrigation uses the majority of the water from aquifers - mostly cities use the rest. Our aquifers, especially in areas of heavy irrigation like east of the Cascades, are dropping their levels precipitously as we use it up.

The farmers in NE Orygun want to create an artificial aquifer by diverting water from the Columbia, to store the water for irrigation as they see the writing on the wall. So far, not politically feasible, especially since they want the government to pay for it.

Having been raised on a farm, I know how much crops depend on both rainfall and irrigation.

I have also noticed, over the decades, how much local land has been converted from food crops to ornamental landscaping plant nurseries; i.e., a lot. My father's farm (he sold it) is now a landscaping plant nursery. That is a waste of land to give people in cities pretty lawns and plants that do nothing but look pretty (usually to keep up with the Joneses).

Yes, Orygun has a lot of rainfall and so far it keeps us from looking like California where they have rivers that no longer flow to the ocean, where they import a lot of our hydropower (and want our water too, but cannot figure out and economic and politically feasible way to import it too).

And even so, we have severe wildfires - some of which were not contained until the rainy season came.

My property has 20 acres of mature conifer trees that may be older than I am (apparently last logged about the time I was born). Every year since I moved back here from Seattle and bought this property, I have noticed how much drier and hotter it is in the summer than when I lived here as a child (my family's farm, now sold, is five miles from my property). I am keenly aware of the fire threat, especially because my woods are so dry in the summer.

Had a small fire about a mile from here this summer that the FD jumped on right away - took them several days to put it out. Had it jumped the road into a dry wheat field, it could have easily threatened my property.

There is a lot of fuel out there. My neighbors clear cut and made a lot of money doing so. I had the trees around my house thinned such that they are not close together, but you can't tell it very well from the satellite pics. I made about 10-20% of what they did, but maintained the value of my land, whereas theirs decreased (people like trees).

This summer I rented a dozer cleared a lot of underbrush. The primary reason was fire danger. I am actually in a better situation than my neighbors who clear cut as their land now has a lot of grass and brush that will go up like a matchbox should there be a fire, whereas I have large mature trees spaced adequately apart. Trees are like a water tower; they suck up water from the ground and store it in their trunks. They are a lot less prone to catch fire than grass and brush is.

Yes, part of the reason I stay here is because the PNW is more or less self-sufficient (or can be) with regards to water, food and energy (we export our hydro-power because we can't use it all - yet). But we are not immune to population growth. A lot of people come here from other states - primarily California.

Even if we stay self-sufficient, we will still be vulnerable to all the side effects of exceeding the carrying capacity in other areas, including wars over natural resources (mostly fought overseas now, but it will come to the USA soon enough) and refugees from areas that can no longer support themselves (e.g., California).

It is inevitable. Humans won't change - human nature being what it is. Powers that be don't want them to change. Population growth is profit, and the people that profit hugely from it do not care about the problems some decades in the future (some of them are buying property in New Zealand) - they figure they will just buy their way out of it, or they will be long dead anyway. These are the people that feed the narrative that climate change/etc. is not at least partially caused by humans, who deny the facts staring them in the face, because they don't want anything to change. And the sheep just go right along with where their masters tell them to go.

We are long past the tipping point. The best we could do now is to mitigate the inevitable problems we have caused, but we won't do even that. We will continue to make it worse and worse until it is way too late. I probably won't live to seethe worse, maybe not even the point where it becomes obvious to almost everybody, but my children may.

 

[Libsam]

In short, the long term prospects for humankind is not pretty.

Well, at least you followed your train of thought to its logical conclusion.

I don't agree with you.
I'm a believer, an optimist, and I think mankind is capable of tackling any problem thrown at it.

Take this recent story as an example:

New technology in China turns desert into land rich with crops

We can do it.

 

[phrodeau]

Yeah,Right.

I have seen methane bubbling up from rivers, creek, ponds, and,lakes continuously all my life. Hell out in the sticks where I was raised the front yard domed up about six inches for weeks at the time... an oil company had to cap off a well and declare it a dry hole because of the high gas pressure (methane) blowing it out so many times.

You can bet None of that is factored in except as a guess, if at all. then there is natural gas leaks in the earth. Hell, Giant blowholes are happening in Russia probably all over the artic as the tundra thaws and the oceans are warming releasing vast amounts so go ahead and worry about cows farting, never mind the millions of Bison that are no longer here producing methane.

Them Cows are killing us!

You sound so sure. Do you know about carbon isotopes? Every molecule of methane has a carbon atom of some isotope, and they offer evidence of the source of that methane.

Another fun fact, there were at most 30 million bison in North America. There are over three times as many cows today.

 

[phrodeau]

Good of you to stop by, Heretic.

 

[trysail]

Have not read but...

Here we have a near-perfect example of economic illiteracy.

Economic illiterates such as Thomas Malthus, the Club of Rome, Paul Ehrlich and the neo-Malthusians have been making the same mistake for the last three hundred years.


Their predictions of impending doom have been wrong again and again and again.

Why? Their crystal ball forecasts always fail to incorporate the impact of technology and human ingenuity.


Like Einstein's definition of insanity, they have repeatedly failed to comprehend that resources are an economic phenomenon. Resources are a function of price.


The latest embarrassment and demonstration of the economic illiteracy of the neo-Malthusians was seen in the now famous Julian Simon-Paul Ehrlich wager.





​

http://dustoffthebible.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/EndIsNear3.jpg

​

 

[trysail]

https://co2islife.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/climate_predictions.jpg

​

 

[jaF0]

Currently in the midst of one of the coldest stretches in several years.

 

[trysail]

Climate alarmism cannot be understood outside of the long-standing, long-debunked Malthusian view of man as a market failure, a planetary failure. The last half-century’s litany of alarm marches on, with one failed prognostication morphing into another.

* The Population Bomb from too many people.
* Resource famine from growing mineral demand.
* Global cooling from sulfur dioxide (SO2) emissions.
* Global warming from carbon dioxide (CO2) emissions.​

What might be next if the latest joins the other three false alarms? ...

-Robert L. Bradley, Jr.​

​

 

[Typo Fu Master]

Well, at least you followed your train of thought to its logical conclusion.

I don't agree with you.
I'm a believer, an optimist, and I think mankind is capable of tackling any problem thrown at it.

Take this recent story as an example:

New technology in China turns desert into land rich with crops

We can do it.

Capable? Absolutely.

Will we? Doubtful.

Humans are greedy, selfish bastards. We are parasites; consuming everything we can and doing little to replenish what we take. I say that as a realist.

 

[SgtSpiderMan]

Here we have a near-perfect example of economic illiteracy.

Economic illiterates such as Thomas Malthus, the Club of Rome, Paul Ehrlich and the neo-Malthusians have been making the same mistake for the last three hundred years.


Their predictions of impending doom have been wrong again and again and again.

Why? Their crystal ball forecasts always fail to incorporate the impact of technology and human ingenuity.


Like Einstein's definition of insanity, they have repeatedly failed to comprehend that resources are an economic phenomenon. Resources are a function of price.


The latest embarrassment and demonstration of the economic illiteracy of the neo-Malthusians was seen in the now famous Julian Simon-Paul Ehrlich wager.





​

http://dustoffthebible.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/EndIsNear3.jpg

​

I haven't seen any scientist say we're doomed. You really are committed to pedaling your narrative.

 

[FGB]

Oh, it's pretty clear where all the gas is coming from.

https://icp.giss.nasa.gov/education/methane/intro/methanesources.gif

The animal waste and enteric fermentation segments are mainly from cattle.

I am saying the scale is off. It's probably much worse but so what? the earth has undergone radical heat and cool changes throughout it's life of habitation man,acording the the eggheads have lived during colder times and warmer dry times.

Things and places are going to change. Start planing NOW and reduce the struggle.
Might mankind get wiped out?

Oh, we will, sooner or later. But with proper planning ahead living in the future will be easier.

Long term we can't even agree on desert or Glacier!

But one thing I do know one world control of wealth is not the answer!