Gun control ... actual question

[Que]

Oh, I see. I was a little confused at the point he was making there. Rape without guns is like raping in another country, or something like that.

Were you worried that the pan-handling black couple were going to rape you when you shoved the woman aside and ran to hide behind "teh" armed security guard?

 

[Wats_butthole]

Were you worried that the pan-handling black couple were going to rape you when you shoved the woman aside and ran to hide behind "teh" armed security guard?

Are you on the meth again?

 

[Richard_P_Feynman]

Were you worried that the pan-handling black couple were going to rape you when you shoved the woman aside and ran to hide behind "teh" armed security guard?

Lay off the meth, Connie.

 

[Que]

Are you on the meth again?

When did you stop beating your ex-wife?

 

[Wats_butthole]

When did ypu stop beating your ex-wife?

If I had an ex wife I could comment. Fortunately I still have the original wife, and I see my children everyday and kiss them goodnight. 3 great things that you will never have, Connie the tranny.

 

[BotanyBoy]

No, no. It's just much better being raped at gunpoint, is what I think he's saying.

Im pretty sure he was saying if there is a threat you should be able to defend yourself.

But that idea is clearly an insane excuse to have his steel penis substitute.

Everyone knows women should never resist or fight back, they need to be nice about it and let the authorities handle the situation.

 

[Que]

If I had an ex wife I could comment. Fortunately I still have the original wife, and I see my children everyday and kiss them goodnight. 3 great things that you will never have, Connie the tranny.

You seem quite intent on proving something.

 

[Aphro]

Im pretty sure he was saying if there is a threat you should be able to defend yourself.

But that idea is clearly an insane excuse to have his steel penis substitute.

Everyone knows women should never resist or fight back, they need to be nice about it and let the authorities handle the situation.

Especially since most rape falls under the domestic violence umbrella anyway. Keeping a gun in the side table drawer isn't going to change that.

 

[Wats_butthole]

You seem quite intent on proving something.

The only thing proven is that you're an idiot, Connie. I state facts.

 

[Wats_butthole]

Especially since most rape falls under the domestic violence umbrella anyway. Keeping a gun in the side table drawer isn't going to change that.

But guns! GUNS STOP ALL CRIME!

 

[Hypoxia]

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/PyPRC07YFvI/maxresdefault.jpg

 

[richard_daily]

Especially since most rape falls under the domestic violence umbrella anyway. Keeping a gun in the side table drawer isn't going to change that.

In the US that's true... In countries without wide-spread gun ownership, not so much.

Keeping a gun on your person stops rape. The numbers prove it. Australia, a country touted as "the ideal" for getting rid of guns, has had a rise in rapes, assaults, and attacks by strangers consistently since banning guns.

If you're comfortable with that, don't carry a gun. However, not everyone wants to be a victim.

 

[pickelrick]

Out of the 74 countries for which data seems to be available, the US has the 11th highest rate of gun deaths (and the 10 higher countries are not exactly surprising). Of the 64 countries for which data is available, the US is the 12th highest for accidental gun deaths. (Source - yes, it's Wikipedia, but the way they make their tables able to be manipulated works pretty well. If anyone has a more reliable source for these data, I'd be interested to see it.)

Since the Vegas shooting, I've read a lot of stuff here and been thinking a lot about the issue of gun control. I personally don't have a problem with guns as a concept. However, we don't own a gun, and we don't live in a context in which gun ownership is common. We also have an incredibly low rate of gun death.

I've learnt a lot about the Second Amendment in the last few days, and read quite complex arguments about how gun ownership is a 'right' ... I'm not sill convinced that it's a human right, but I get that it's a right under the US constitution. And I have a better understanding (although far from complete) of the history of the US that's created the culture in which that seems to make sense.

So, in the light of all that, I'm thinking most people would still agree the stats in para one above are not great? Given that, what is proposed as the solution? If you don't think greater gun control is the answer, what is?

It would be great if any thoughts along any lines were supported by actual evidence.

*Feel free to hurl whatever insults you want in my general direction in response to anything that's said in this thread, but I won't respond to that. I'm actually genuinely interested in getting an understanding of the situation.

The answer to gun control is always NO!
No I don't want to give up a Right to make you feel better , stay home fake charts , numbers and anti gun group PSA's will not change that .

Its a right , its the Law so there's nothing to talk about accept it and go stand in line for a smart phone already!

 

[Hypoxia]

#2. We've Been Fighting About Weapons Bans As Long As We've Had Weapons

The gun control debate feels like a uniquely American problem, but swap guns for swords and the discussion would have looked right at home with a bunch of old dudes wearing togas. Two famous ancient Greek smarty-robes, Thucydides and Aristotle, denounced armed men walking the streets as a threat against law and order, and doing so was indeed illegal in most Greek cities of the time. Because every debate needs a catchy phrase to fit on a bumper sticker or in a Tweet, Thucydides wrote that Athenians should "Let the laws rule alone. When weapons rule, they kill the law." Tough to argue against a guy wise enough to leave 79 characters for hashtags.

"Hey @TheRealThucydides, swords don't kill people, Persians kill people. #BuildTheWall"​

However, modern gun rights advocates would agree with Aristotle's argument that "those who control the weapons also control whether a constitution will survive or not." Aristotle saw civilians carrying weapons in public as threatening violent revolution, so he was petrified of a different kind of tyranny than what 20 years of NRA presidents have claimed to defend against.

Later, Roman lawmakers enshrined their own "Stand Your Ground" law, making it perfectly legal to kill someone who attacked you on the road or wandered onto your farm in search of "plunder." But carrying weapons in cities was a big no-no, to the point where it was considered blasphemous. That's why Caesar was assassinated outside the city limits, which probably prompted a lot of sarcastic comments about no-sword zones. Weapons being considered dangerous in cities but necessary for survival out in the country? Sounds vaguely familiar ...

"The only thing that can stop a bad guy with a sword is a good guy with a sword ... or dysentery."​

The issue got more complicated as weapons got more elaborate. In the 12th century, the Church, the emperor of Germany, and other rulers tried to ban crossbows for being "un-Christian." The issue came down to literal class warfare -- crossbows were deadly and required little skill to operate, meaning any yokel armed with one could kill a knight or nobleman. (Richard the Lionheart was killed by a potshot from some random dude defending a castle he was besieging.)

Centuries later, nobles had the same concerns about guns. Henry VIII banned anyone who made less than 100 pounds from owning a firearm, and France soon followed suit. So governments have always kept weapons out of the hands of the masses because they feared giving the people power, but it was also often done to uphold order and save lives. That double-sided issue has been a problem for millennia, so it's unlikely the next Facebook argument you see is going to solve it.

 

[Wats_butthole]

USA

Data on the prevalence of rape vary greatly depending on what definition of rape is used. The FBI recorded 85,593 rapes in 2010. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention reported nearly 1.3 million incidents.

Guns prevent rape

 

[BotanyBoy]

Especially since most rape falls under the domestic violence umbrella anyway. Keeping a gun in the side table drawer isn't going to change that.

Glad you at least stand by it and proudly think women should just take it.


I personally have more respect for women like my grandmother who put her old man in the ICU with a .38 special for whipping her ass one too many times. But hey.....that makes me a psychopathic gun nut so.

I tell ya whut though, last fuckin' time he hit her....never happened ever again.

 

[KimGordon67]

OK, I've said this before but I'll say it again - the only time a stranger has attempted to rape me, I was very glad he DIDN'T have a gun, because he would have succeeded. I was 15. Can 15 year olds legally carry a gun anywhere? But if we lived somewhere guns were routinely carriex, HE probably would have had one. And I would have been raped.
I fought him off. I have a friend who hospitalized a would-be rapist with her teeth. We're not littlle flowers - we're fairly capable of defending ourselves. But we absolutely can NOT defend ourselves against an armed attacker.

RD - I'd really like to see the research that demonstrates the correlation between lower gun ownership and higher rape rates (actual rates, not just better reporting/conviction rates).

 

[BotanyBoy]

But we absolutely can NOT defend ourselves against an armed attacker.

Absolute bullshit.....I've watched women and children both do it in full on urban warfare, with their own armaments

AK47 don't give a fuck if you got a dick or how big you are and neither does a pink glock.

I'm 6'4" and 230 lbs....doesn't mean shit if you crank off several .45ACP nuggets into me, I'm almost certainly done.


Which brings me to a question I'd be shocked if you answered and didn't deflect from.

If you were attacked right now by a guy who could either overpower you or is armed himself......

Cops aren't an option he just kicked in your back door and has chased you upstairs into your bedroom. In this scenario even if you got a call to the cops out it's going down right now, 2-3 more kicks and your door is coming down.

Would you rather have in your hands?

1) a rape whistle

2) a phone to call the police back and ask when the fuck they plan on getting there to protect you by trying to talk psycho boy out of it.

or

3) a 12ga shotgun stacked with one in the chamber and 6 more in the tube?

 

[KimGordon67]

Absolute bullshit.....I've watched women and children both do it in full on urban warfare, with their own armaments

AK47 don't give a fuck if you got a dick or how big you are and neither does a pink glock.

I'm 6'4" and 230 lbs....doesn't mean shit if you crank off several .45ACP nuggets into me, I'm almost certainly done.


Which brings me to a question I'd be shocked if you answered and didn't deflect from.

If you were attacked right now by a guy who could either overpower you or is armed himself......

Cops aren't an option he just kicked in your back door and has chased you upstairs into your bedroom. In this scenario even if you got a call to the cops out it's going down right now, 2-3 more kicks and your door is coming down.

Would you rather have in your hands?

1) a rape whistle

2) a phone to call the police back and ask when the fuck they plan on getting there to protect you by trying to talk psycho boy out of it.

or

3) a 12ga shotgun

(a) Where I am, I'm 99% positive he wouldn't be armed.
(b) See above. I'm not an easy victim. I'd fight back.
(c) This is not the scenario in which the vast majority of rapes happen. I"ve been raped. It didn't look like that. And there's no way in the world I would have shot the perpetrator.

Unless you, or any other pro-gun proponent contributing to this thread, has actually been raped, or been thretened with rape, I would strongly recommend withdrawing this ridiculously over-enotive 'example' as a support for your argument. Let's leave the 'guns prevent rape' proposition to be thrashed out by the people actually at risk. Stick to bears or whatever your theoretical immediate risk is.

 

[Wats_butthole]

(a) Where I am, I'm 99% positive he wouldn't be armed.
(b) See above. I'm not an easy victim. I'd fight back.
(c) This is not the scenario in which the vast majority of rapes happen. I"ve been raped. It didn't look like that. And there's no way in the world I would have shot the perpetrator.

Unless you, or any other pro-gun proponent contributing to this thread, has actually been raped, or been thretened with rape, I would strongly recommend withdrawing this ridiculously over-enotive 'example' as a support for your argument. Let's leave the 'guns prevent rape' proposition to be thrashed out by the people actually at risk. Stick to bears or whatever your theoretical immediate risk is.

You don't keep a 12 gauge in your purse? Pffft, he has no respect for you!

 

[KimGordon67]

You don't keep a 12 gauge in your purse? Pffft, he has no respect for you!

lol. I'm OK with that.

 

[BotanyBoy]

(a) Where I am, I'm 99% positive he wouldn't be armed.
(b) See above. I'm not an easy victim. I'd fight back.
(c) This is not the scenario in which the vast majority of rapes happen. I"ve been raped. It didn't look like that. And there's no way in the world I would have shot the perpetrator.

Deflection deflection deflection.

If you were being physically attacked, would you rather be armed or unarmed in your self defense efforts?

 

[BotanyBoy]

You don't keep a 12 gauge in your purse? Pffft, he has no respect for you!

More like she can't ever answer the hard questions and bullshits better than SGT. Spiderman.

Can you answer the question?

I bet you wont........

 

[richard_daily]

OK, I've said this before but I'll say it again - the only time a stranger has attempted to rape me, I was very glad he DIDN'T have a gun, because he would have succeeded. I was 15. Can 15 year olds legally carry a gun anywhere? But if we lived somewhere guns were routinely carriex, HE probably would have had one. And I would have been raped.
I fought him off. I have a friend who hospitalized a would-be rapist with her teeth. We're not littlle flowers - we're fairly capable of defending ourselves. But we absolutely can NOT defend ourselves against an armed attacker.

RD - I'd really like to see the research that demonstrates the correlation between lower gun ownership and higher rape rates (actual rates, not just better reporting/conviction rates).

Do you live in the US?

In the US, I don't know a single woman who has been attempted to be raped by a stranger. I know several women from Australia (and New Zealand) who have been sexually assaulted by strangers.

 

[richard_daily]

(a) Where I am, I'm 99% positive he wouldn't be armed.
(b) See above. I'm not an easy victim. I'd fight back.
(c) This is not the scenario in which the vast majority of rapes happen. I"ve been raped. It didn't look like that. And there's no way in the world I would have shot the perpetrator.

Unless you, or any other pro-gun proponent contributing to this thread, has actually been raped, or been thretened with rape, I would strongly recommend withdrawing this ridiculously over-enotive 'example' as a support for your argument. Let's leave the 'guns prevent rape' proposition to be thrashed out by the people actually at risk. Stick to bears or whatever your theoretical immediate risk is.

Knives are illegal where you live?

"Easy victims" are those who agree to disarm, and not protect themselves with the force necessary to stop an imminent threat.

And I don't need to have been raped to want to prevent it, unless you need to have been shot at to have a stance on gun control.

I have been shot at. I prefer to go throughout my day armed.