How To Get To Heaven When You Die

[ishtat]

It's easy to conclude all religions are stupid.

I don't entirely agree. The professed ethical values of Zoroastrianism, Judaism, Christianity and Islam are pretty much identical as are those of Buddhism and Hinduism. I don't know enough about Confucianism, Taoism to comment.

The problem arises when subgroups (priesthoods) try and take ownership and control by specifying very particular belief systems, ritual, doctrine and theology, which can only be accessed through them and their institution.

Buddha's view of gods is instructive, he thought they were probably there, but not something humans should worry about. His point was to live ones values rather than proclaim a belief in them.

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

I'm a Gnostic Spark...


I'm already there, like the quark!

 

[Hypoxia]

I don't entirely agree. The professed ethical values of Zoroastrianism, Judaism, Christianity and Islam are pretty much identical as are those of Buddhism and Hinduism. I don't know enough about Confucianism, Taoism to comment.

Professed beliefs are fine in the abstract. But when the pedal hits the metal, holy abstractions are excuses for domination and mayhem. Spanish missions in the Americas make the point. Domenican missions were imposing fortresses built by forced labor of Indio women and children, wee little brown folk carrying heavy loads to dizzying heights. See the Salinas (salt mines) missions in New Mexico.

The Church was a tool of the invaders / occupiers and, as usual, the strong arm of cultural genocide. That's the aim of proselytizing religion: repeal and replace the targeted culture. Cast your filthy god(s) aside and follow ours, guided of course by holy men backed by soldiers. If needed for conversion, old gods and godesses can become saints or angrls in the occupiers' playbook. Hi there, Deidre and Guadelupe and Gabriel!

Religion is a ruler's tool of social control. Follow the rules and don't sin or your alleged soul will suffer an unpleasant eternity in torment or reincarnation or shitwork. And be sure to tithe the priest. And obey the enforcers. Or else.

 

[Tryharder62]

Christianity fails the simplest tests for truth. Matthew 7:7 Ask and it shall be given to you. What bullshit.

It fails the simple test if you take it out of context. Heck you didn't even quote the whole verse. Our prayers are based on a relationship with Jesus (Matthew 7:8).My earthly dad was the best there ever was. I miss him every day. He would give anybody the shirt off his back. I know he would give me anything too, except something that would hurt me or wasn't in tune with how he thought I should be raised. How much more would my heavenly Father

You have to look at the biblical instructions for prayer - how we converse with God. We have to pray one persistently( Luke 18:1), two unselfishly,( James 4:3) and three with faith (Matthew 21:22). We have to build that relationship and trust he will give us what we need but not all we desire.

God is not a cosmic genie!

I'm not sure who is *against* Xianity itself as such. Maybe victims.

It's easy to conclude all religions are stupid. How can we determine which, if any, of humanity's zillions of invented deities have any existence outside of human consciousness? What makes a god a god? And how can we count them? Those are the basic questions IMHO. But yeah, Xianity makes a fat, juicy target.

I've been ordained a couple of times but they didn't take.

Are Judeo-Xian-Muslim theologies nonsensical at best and toxic at worst? Sure, same as any belief-system game played as a blood sport. But they're entertaining. I don't ask anyone to 'prove' their religion or other notions to be correct. People gonna believe what they wanna believe and 'proof' or evidence are irrelevant. But IMHO believers need clear visions of what they believe. Do they really? Do you?

Believe it or not I see a hostility in you that you may not recognize. Especially by the way you use An X instead of Christ in Christianity even though you know it bugs me. I personally believe that you were victimized. Something happened to make you turn your back on what you believed and were ordained believing.

I just had to step back and decide what I believe, not what others thought I should believe. I don't think I'm a typical woman let alone Christian woman. I do have a good grasp on what I believe, even though I'm learning everyday. For me He's the real deal.

 

[phrodeau]

It fails the simple test if you take it out of context. Heck you didn't even quote the whole verse. Our prayers are based on a relationship with Jesus (Matthew 7:8).My earthly dad was the best there ever was. I miss him every day. He would give anybody the shirt off his back. I know he would give me anything too, except something that would hurt me or wasn't in tune with how he thought I should be raised. How much more would my heavenly Father

You have to look at the biblical instructions for prayer - how we converse with God. We have to pray one persistently( Luke 18:1), two unselfishly,( James 4:3) and three with faith (Matthew 21:22). We have to build that relationship and trust he will give us what we need but not all we desire.

God is not a cosmic genie!



Believe it or not I see a hostility in you that you may not recognize. Especially by the way you use An X instead of Christ in Christianity even though you know it bugs me. I personally believe that you were victimized. Something happened to make you turn your back on what you believed and we're ordained believing.

I just had to step back and decide what I believe not what others thought I should believe. I don't think I'm a typical woman let alone Christian woman. I do have a good grasp on what I believe, even though I'm learning everyday. For me He's the real deal.

I quoted the entire sentence. Why would quoting the entire verse be important? Jesus spoke in sentences, not verses.

The context is a person's relationship with God. No other conditions were laid out. Ask and it shall be given, period.

 

[Tryharder62]

I quoted the entire sentence. Why would quoting the entire verse be important? Jesus spoke in sentences, not verses.

The context is a person's relationship with God. No other conditions were laid out. Ask and it shall be given, period.

"You're a dick head!" That's what Princess Margaret said to Jane. Take that second sentence away and this post would have a different meaning.

You're right the context is a relationship with God. God has taught us how to talk to him including what we should ask and how we should ask it. Just as my father did the same on this Earth.

 

[xfrodobagginsx]

90 Minutes In Heaven With Don Piper:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_0JByhq3sAI

 

[phrodeau]

"You're a dick head!" That's what Princess Margaret said to Jane. Take that second sentence away and this post would have a different meaning.

You're right the context is a relationship with God. God has taught us how to talk to him including what we should ask and how we should ask it. Just as my father did the same on this Earth.

And as you pointed out, it took three different authors to do it.

 

[Tryharder62]

And as you pointed out, it took three different authors to do it.

And that is bad why?

 

[phrodeau]

And that is bad why?

Because it's not the Word of God any more after it's gone through several proxies and interpreters.

It's like comparing what pundits say based on things Spicer, Sanders, Conway and Miller have said, and claiming it's the word of Trump. Maybe God should have a Twitter account.

 

[Tryharder62]

Because it's not the Word of God any more after it's gone through several proxies and interpreters.

It's like comparing what pundits say based on things Spicer, Sanders, Conway and Miller have said, and claiming it's the word of Trump. Maybe God should have a Twitter account.

No it would be like Trump inspiring and telling Spicer, Sanders, Conway, and Miller what is important and exactly what to write and looking at these writings to get a clear picture of who Trump was, and is, and always will be.

The problem is if you have a Trump supporter reading the material or a non - Trump supporter.

God doesn't need Twitter, He's got that omnipresence thing going for him.

 

[xfrodobagginsx]

And as you pointed out, it took three different authors to do it.

Three authors to do what?

 

[phrodeau]

Three authors to do what?

Explain the proper way to pray so you get what you need. Apparently, it involves taking things out of context.

 

[Tryharder62]

Explain the proper way to pray so you get what you need. Apparently, it involves taking things out of context.

This is like a bad game of telephone! Lol

 

[Richard_P_Feynman]

Hail Lightbringer!

http://www.ghafla.com/images/chege/detavc.jpg

 

[Hypoxia]

Believe it or not I see a hostility in you that you may not recognize. Especially by the way you use An X instead of Christ in Christianity even though you know it bugs me.

Χ or Chi in Xian has been common in Anglish for almost 500 years. X has symbolized Yeshua since at least the 2nd century CE; in the Chi Rho chrismon and IX monogram, it's almost as ancient.

I personally believe that you were victimized. Something happened to make you turn your back on what you believed and were ordained believing.

Neither ordination was serious nor transformative, only more steps along my path. Dad's family were Quaker farmers. Mom's family were Methodist townsfolk. We lived close together. I attended a conservative Lutheran day school and spent a spell at Oral Roberts University. I lived in a Hasidic Jewish hippy commune. I was *almost* in Jim Jones' People's Temple but missed the move to Guyana. The last services I attended were Unitarian Universalist, long ago.

I studied Tarot, I Ching, biblical logomancy, astrology -- but like all methods of prophesy, they only work as parlor tricks. I probed as many belief systems as I could, and cultures that don't bother with gods or spirits or holy wars.

And I discovered Occam's Razor: Multiply not thy causes without necessity. Or: The simplest comprehensive explanation is probably correct.

Lord {JHWH} is infinite, right? Alas, Occam's Razor (which dates back to Aristotle) shows that ANY physical explanation is more likely correct than ANY supernatural conjecture. Invoking an infinitely-complex deity to explain everything, explains nothing. Did a god or demon cause my eye ailments? Prayer demonstrably doesn't work (Ask me about British monarchs.) Retinal surgery fixed me better than prayer would.

Or, to be 9/11 brutal: Science flies us to the moon. Faith flies us into buildings.

 

[xfrodobagginsx]

Explain the proper way to pray so you get what you need. Apparently, it involves taking things out of context.

How so?

 

[phrodeau]

How so?

Read the thread, troll.

 

[Tryharder62]

Χ or Chi in Xian has been common in Anglish for almost 500 years. X has symbolized Yeshua since at least the 2nd century CE; in the Chi Rho chrismon and IX monogram, it's almost as ancient.

Neither ordination was serious nor transformative, only more steps along my path. Dad's family were Quaker farmers. Mom's family were Methodist townsfolk. We lived close together. I attended a conservative Lutheran day school and spent a spell at Oral Roberts University. I lived in a Hasidic Jewish hippy commune. I was *almost* in Jim Jones' People's Temple but missed the move to Guyana. The last services I attended were Unitarian Universalist, long ago.

I studied Tarot, I Ching, biblical logomancy, astrology -- but like all methods of prophesy, they only work as parlor tricks. I probed as many belief systems as I could, and cultures that don't bother with gods or spirits or holy wars.

And I discovered Occam's Razor: Multiply not thy causes without necessity. Or: The simplest comprehensive explanation is probably correct.

Lord {JHWH} is infinite, right? Alas, Occam's Razor (which dates back to Aristotle) shows that ANY physical explanation is more likely correct than ANY supernatural conjecture. Invoking an infinitely-complex deity to explain everything, explains nothing. Did a god or demon cause my eye ailments? Prayer demonstrably doesn't work (Ask me about British monarchs.) Retinal surgery fixed me better than prayer would.

Or, to be 9/11 brutal: Science flies us to the moon. Faith flies us into buildings.

Thanks for sharing your story. I for one am glad you missed the move.

I would tend to say that any physical explanation is easier to explain than a supernatural conjecture but it's not necessarily more correct. Prayers always work, but for what? God's plan not ours.

You mentioning retinal surgery made me think of another story. You may have heard it already. This man of God was standing on his house and he saw that the flood was coming so he prayed and prayed "God please deliver me from this flood".

A boat went by and the driver asked him if he wanted to be rescued. He said" No... I'm waiting for God to save me".

The water kept rising and the man again said the same prayer. Another boat came by and the driver asked him if he wanted to be rescued. The man said again "No... I'm waiting for God to save me."

The man kept praying and praying but finally the water covered him and he drowned. He was angry at God and asked Him "Why did you let me drown? Why didn't you save me?

God replied "Who do you think sent the boats?"

(or retinal surgeon if that be the case).

 

[Tryharder62]

Three authors to do what?

In post # 2704, I tried to explain that the verse he was quoting was being taken out of context. I also cited three verses about prayer from three different books of the Bible.

 

[EternalFantasies]

It's not just that. Even in this simple form, the verse is correct.

But one has to remember, you gotta do it right.

for ex.

'thou shall not test the Lord thy God'.


So, you ask, and say "there, nothing happened"

Well.... ur problem, not God's


It is essential to believe, to be pure, to go by God's will, and be good. Do not be wicked...!!

Be good hearted, innocent, brave, faithful... then, when in need, it'll come from where you never expected.

 

[phrodeau]

It's not just that. Even in this simple form, the verse is correct.

But one has to remember, you gotta do it right.

for ex.

'thou shall not test the Lord thy God'.


So, you ask, and say "there, nothing happened"

Well.... ur problem, not God's


It is essential to believe, to be pure, to go by God's will, and be good. Do not be wicked...!!

Be good hearted, innocent, brave, faithful... then, when in need, it'll come from where you never expected.

Is that in the Book of Small Print?

 

[Hypoxia]

Thanks for sharing your story. I for one am glad you missed the move.

I'd not have gone anyway. I was lazy and material enough to prefer San Francisco to a remote jungle compound.

I would tend to say that any physical explanation is easier to explain than a supernatural conjecture but it's not necessarily more correct. Prayers always work, but for what? God's plan not ours.

If prayer doesn't produce desired results, why bother? Why not try tactics that work?

Prayer has failed a long-running test. Henry VIII's Church of England broke from papal authority in the 1530s; the monarch became the church's head. Since then, millions of CoE faithful have prayed nightly and weekly for the life of the monarch. If prayer worked, Brit monarchs would live significantly longer than the general population. This test has been running almost 500 years. Results: nope, no lifespan gain. Yes, a few have lived long. Most haven't.

Obvious excuses: Lord {JHWH} doesn't much like CoE or Brit royals. Or doesn't listen-in on their wavelength. Or is the wrong deity; they should be praying to Hermes. Or they're not using the exact right ritual prayer formula. Whatever. Lord {JHWH} didn't change the laws of nature when begged.
_____

Two items. An old fable tells of a Roman wagoneer who ran his rig off the road, the wheels stuck in the ruts. He knelt down and prayed to divine Hercules for help. Hercules appeared in a cloud of smoke and roared, "The gods help them that help themselves. Put your shoulder to the wheel, man!" In other words, self-help is more dependable than divine help.

And I mentioned my eyes. If I lived in year 1000 CE, the likely treatment would be prayer. And I'd be blind. A couple hundred years later, lensmakers learned enough optics to help many visual problems. Later, anatomists studied eyeball structures, and surgeons learned repair skills. Later, biochemists found compounds to eliminate some microbial causes. Now, pharmaceuticals and surgery (knife and laser) kept me from the darkness.

Prayer assumes deities or demons cause our problems. Physical explanations work better. If spirits were involved, they were overridden by good medical practice. Ah well. Prayer makes those praying feel better about doing nothing.

 

[Tryharder62]

I'd not have gone anyway. I was lazy and material enough to prefer San Francisco to a remote jungle compound.

If prayer doesn't produce desired results, why bother? Why not try tactics that work?

Prayer has failed a long-running test. Henry VIII's Church of England broke from papal authority in the 1530s; the monarch became the church's head. Since then, millions of CoE faithful have prayed nightly and weekly for the life of the monarch. If prayer worked, Brit monarchs would live significantly longer than the general population. This test has been running almost 500 years. Results: nope, no lifespan gain. Yes, a few have lived long. Most haven't.

Obvious excuses: Lord {JHWH} doesn't much like CoE or Brit royals. Or doesn't listen-in on their wavelength. Or is the wrong deity; they should be praying to Hermes. Or they're not using the exact right ritual prayer formula. Whatever. Lord {JHWH} didn't change the laws of nature when begged.
_____

Two items. An old fable tells of a Roman wagoneer who ran his rig off the road, the wheels stuck in the ruts. He knelt down and prayed to divine Hercules for help. Hercules appeared in a cloud of smoke and roared, "The gods help them that help themselves. Put your shoulder to the wheel, man!" In other words, self-help is more dependable than divine help.

And I mentioned my eyes. If I lived in year 1000 CE, the likely treatment would be prayer. And I'd be blind. A couple hundred years later, lensmakers learned enough optics to help many visual problems. Later, anatomists studied eyeball structures, and surgeons learned repair skills. Later, biochemists found compounds to eliminate some microbial causes. Now, pharmaceuticals and surgery (knife and laser) kept me from the darkness.

Prayer assumes deities or demons cause our problems. Physical explanations work better. If spirits were involved, they were overridden by good medical practice. Ah well. Prayer makes those praying feel better about doing nothing.

Prayer is nothing more than conversation with god. Not all of it is about asking for things. Once you get to know God better you get to know his plan better.

 

[xfrodobagginsx]

In post # 2704, I tried to explain that the verse he was quoting was being taken out of context. I also cited three verses about prayer from three different books of the Bible.

Ok, and what conclusions were drawn from those verses?